Saw some silly stuff at the pro am today

[LEW45]

Don't confuse the match director and the range master. MD does stage designs n sets it up. RM checks stages and approves them and the rules and stage descriptions. When match starts MD is done and RM takes over and makes all calls and decisions.

[RiggerJJ]

...When match starts MD is done and RM takes over and makes all calls and decisions.

Now that is funny...

[Mark R]

As a RO with partial hearing loss, I will not allow YOU, as a competitor, to continue the stage without proper hearing and eye protection. A RO has to monitor the gun(s) and the actions of the competitor. If I see hearing protection accidentally come off, then I will stop YOU, the competitor, and award a re-shoot. If I monitor your body movements and see an intentional act of protection removal, then you will get a stage DQ or a match DQ for unsportsmanlike conduct. I don't care how long a re-shoot will cost the squad or match...hearing loss is not an option.

[Jesse Tischauser]

I just want consistency, fairness, and firmly established expectations.

Hahahahaha! I think the term outlaw which everyone loves In this sport pretty much gets rid of consistency. But I agree with your statement 100%.

Edited August 26, 2014 by Jesse Tischauser

[dcloudy777]

Well, these poor backward outlaw 3-gun major matches all seem to have wait lists every year, so I guess shooters just crave unfairness and inconsistency.....

[Jesse Tischauser]

Well, these poor backward outlaw 3-gun major matches all seem to have wait lists every year, so I guess shooters just crave unfairness and inconsistency.....

Actually it's the MD's that can't agree on the rules to give us the consistency. We just want to shoot and have to deal with whatever is available.

Most matches are fair and such.

Edited August 26, 2014 by Jesse Tischauser

[RJH]

While I'm not crazy about the USPSA 3 gun rule set pertaining to stage set up (visible targets and such), calibration, eye and ear pro, fault lines for steel (safety), and most other common problems that are hashed out on this forum are covered fairly clearly. Hell they are on even on a website for everyone to read.

One other thing I haven't seen discussed is that with a common set of rules ROs would know what was expected of them. I can go to any USPSA pistol match in the country and RO and don't have to learn a new rule book. This has to aide in consistency for the competitor.

[Brian Payne]

Consistency is the one thing that I don't want in the matches I attend. I enjoy the variety that is afforded by multiple MD's having different rule sets. I read the rules prior to attending the match and adjust equipment and my mental game accordingly. I enjoy going to the Horner matches that only allow 8 rounds in the shotgun tube and have the unique scoring system. I also enjoy the RM3G matches that only allow the base of one mag to be touching the ground as a monopod. I don't have to agree to the rules, I just have to abide by them.

I don't want every match to be exactly the same. The more shooting, physical, and mental challenges the better.

I also don't need someone to give me a re-shoot because I ran under a low hanging branch and knocked my ear pro kittywhampus, I can figure that out for myself, if I knocked it off then get it back on and get to work. There should be some things that you can figure out for yourself without having to have a specific rule to assist you in your decision.

Basically any major 3-gun match will have you crawling over, through, or under some form of barrier. Your eyes/ears may become knocked around. You are not allowed to shoot without them, take the time to put them back in place. The comments about "Big Boy Rules" have nothing to do with the size of anyones maleness, it has more to do with the mentality. You are a 3-gunner for crying out loud. You shouldn't need a rule for every specific incident you may run into.

Just as a side note, I didn't mean that 3-gunners are another worldly sort of person that is living at a higher plane than other shooters from other sports. What I mean is that 3-gunners run around with three different kinds of loaded weapons. Sometimes with all three weapons at the same time. If we can figure out how to do this safely, the rest of the problems we face should be cake.

[TXMXRACER]

Consistency is the one thing that I don't want in the matches I attend. I enjoy the variety that is afforded by multiple MD's having different rule sets. I read the rules prior to attending the match and adjust equipment and my mental game accordingly. I enjoy going to the Horner matches that only allow 8 rounds in the shotgun tube and have the unique scoring system. I also enjoy the RM3G matches that only allow the base of one mag to be touching the ground as a monopod. I don't have to agree to the rules, I just have to abide by them.

I don't want every match to be exactly the same. The more shooting, physical, and mental challenges the better.

I also don't need someone to give me a re-shoot because I ran under a low hanging branch and knocked my ear pro kittywhampus, I can figure that out for myself, if I knocked it off then get it back on and get to work. There should be some things that you can figure out for yourself without having to have a specific rule to assist you in your decision.

Basically any major 3-gun match will have you crawling over, through, or under some form of barrier. Your eyes/ears may become knocked around. You are not allowed to shoot without them, take the time to put them back in place. The comments about "Big Boy Rules" have nothing to do with the size of anyones maleness, it has more to do with the mentality. You are a 3-gunner for crying out loud. You shouldn't need a rule for every specific incident you may run into.

Just as a side note, I didn't mean that 3-gunners are another worldly sort of person that is living at a higher plane than other shooters from other sports. What I mean is that 3-gunners run around with three different kinds of loaded weapons. Sometimes with all three weapons at the same time. If we can figure out how to do this safely, the rest of the problems we face should be cake.

Well said.

[MarkCO]

Brian, while I agree with your general assertions, in order to go "back" there, something will have to occur, and soon. I am not sure I want to have to give a "common sense and on-the-clock problem solving" test to new shooters. But we can NOT abandon the new shooters by having things that are, to those who have been shooting 3Gun for many years, common sense. Because really, they are no longer common sense.

I have come to realize that my biggest mistake as a MD (local matches) is not following up with new shooters, especially those who get DQ'd. We had at least 12 new shooters get DQ'd this year, and only one came back. When I started talking to some of the new shooters, some were almost in tears. SO MUCH stuff to keep track of and they were overwhelmed. My initial thought is "well, my 12 year old can do it", but, that is a stupid response on my part. He shoots more, hunts more, and is a better shot than the vast majority of the new shooters who come to a match. My boys watch an episode of 3GN or Shooting Gallery then go in the back yard and set up the stage with airsoft and run it multiple times.

I have been, and will continue to be a proponent of not watering down the majors for the new shooters, however, some of the mid-tier matches are terrible with MDs who (a long string of bad stuff not allowed on BEnos was thought about, but not posted in this space) should just go away.

Bitching and complaining is a waste of time and only serves to create strife, I want solutions, and granted, with the vastly different and sometimes diametrically opposed views of the various MDs, we won't get it. I look at the Noveske match as one of many solutions. Easy targets, no circus tricks, no bug hunts, and a lot of choices, stresses fundamentals. This very topic is one of the reasons I started the Novekse match in the first place. However, it is not enough.

Next, while USPSA has a solid rulebook, they have not done a good job with 3Gun. I use their ruleset primarily for rules consistency and liability issues. The changes in the last few years have allowed me great flexibility. Also, when the RMI, who does not shoot 3Gun, reviews the stages, it is a good feedback of what a new 3Gunner might assume or interpret, so I really don't mind it too much.

There are a lot of other potential solutions...

Should major match MDs require a proficiency test, or the local MD to sign a proficiency letter for new shooters? Should major matches provide a rule clinic the day before the match starts? Should there be more mid tier matches that reduce the pressure and cost to help train new 3Gunners in the sport?

3Gun was derived from SOF, a hard core sport that does not look like most 3Gun matches today. Has it softened? Yes. Too soft? That is debatable.

Bottom line is that 3Gunners "were" cut of a different cloth, but there is a wider and more broad demographic now. I believe that is is desirable, however, not without perils. Some of the "old school" and "big boy" stuff is going to have either go to a few matches where that is how the match is done, with sufficient notice to competitors that it is going to be. Will matches find their flavors? Yes.

So while my personal opinion might be consistent with your Brian, we have to be willing to provide the customer service, training, environments that will promote the sport and allow easier entry for new participants.

[RJH]

I get that if you knock eye/ear pro off put it back on.

But what about popper calibration. Ex: day 1 of a major a 9mm knocks a popper over easily but by day 3 of a major splatter has dug a hole under it and it takes a full choke and 6 shot to knock it down. Is this fair and equitable to the shooters on day 3? Oh yea big boy rules=sucks to be you if and we don't need no stinking consistency.

Or fault lines some shooters have them and some don't on the same stage? Big boy rules=sucks to be the squads that have to shoot thing from 5 yards further away.

And God forbid that the ROs use the same rules from stage to stage.

P.S. This was not directed at the Pro Am as I wasn't there, just things I've seen at other matches

[MarkCO]

USPSA's calibration rules are what make the most sense to me, a 9mm sub-minor on all targets subject to calibration. Any good RM worth his salt will check the poppers daily. I actually shoot every popper down with the calibration ammo every morning and check them all at lunch.

[P.E. Kelley]

Brian, while I agree with your general assertions, in order to go "back" there, something will have to occur, and soon. I am not sure I want to have to give a "common sense and on-the-clock problem solving" test to new shooters. But we can NOT abandon the new shooters by having things that are, to those who have been shooting 3Gun for many years, common sense. Because really, they are no longer common sense.

I have come to realize that my biggest mistake as a MD (local matches) is not following up with new shooters, especially those who get DQ'd. We had at least 12 new shooters get DQ'd this year, and only one came back. When I started talking to some of the new shooters, some were almost in tears. SO MUCH stuff to keep track of and they were overwhelmed. My initial thought is "well, my 12 year old can do it", but, that is a stupid response on my part. He shoots more, hunts more, and is a better shot than the vast majority of the new shooters who come to a match. My boys watch an episode of 3GN or Shooting Gallery then go in the back yard and set up the stage with airsoft and run it multiple times.

I have been, and will continue to be a proponent of not watering down the majors for the new shooters, however, some of the mid-tier matches are terrible with MDs who (a long string of bad stuff not allowed on BEnos was thought about, but not posted in this space) should just go away.

Bitching and complaining is a waste of time and only serves to create strife, I want solutions, and granted, with the vastly different and sometimes diametrically opposed views of the various MDs, we won't get it. I look at the Noveske match as one of many solutions. Easy targets, no circus tricks, no bug hunts, and a lot of choices, stresses fundamentals. This very topic is one of the reasons I started the Novekse match in the first place. However, it is not enough.

Next, while USPSA has a solid rulebook, they have not done a good job with 3Gun. I use their ruleset primarily for rules consistency and liability issues. The changes in the last few years have allowed me great flexibility. Also, when the RMI, who does not shoot 3Gun, reviews the stages, it is a good feedback of what a new 3Gunner might assume or interpret, so I really don't mind it too much.

There are a lot of other potential solutions...

Should major match MDs require a proficiency test, or the local MD to sign a proficiency letter for new shooters? Should major matches provide a rule clinic the day before the match starts? Should there be more mid tier matches that reduce the pressure and cost to help train new 3Gunners in the sport?

3Gun was derived from SOF, a hard core sport that does not look like most 3Gun matches today. Has it softened? Yes. Too soft? That is debatable.

Bottom line is that 3Gunners "were" cut of a different cloth, but there is a wider and more broad demographic now. I believe that is is desirable, however, not without perils. Some of the "old school" and "big boy" stuff is going to have either go to a few matches where that is how the match is done, with sufficient notice to competitors that it is going to be. Will matches find their flavors? Yes.

So while my personal opinion might be consistent with your Brian, we have to be willing to provide the customer service, training, environments that will promote the sport and allow easier entry for new participants.

After reading this whole thread again...I understand that I am "old school" and that may not be the way forward. Considering the tremendous influx of new shooters (some who have never shot a pistol only match!!!) we should at least have a common safety rule set. After that...I say let the MD's do whatever they want. We will vote with our wallets. However, it does pain me that common sense...isn't!

[MarkCO]

We should at least have a common safety rule set. After that...I say let the MD's do whatever they want.

1st sentence, I agree wholeheartedly. 2nd sentence, for some MDs, most definitely, but or those MDs and RMs who make ruling based things that are inconsistent, like feelings, and if the person is a sponsor or not, or a pro shooter or not...me no like at all!

[Onagoth]

The first time an RO is named in a civil suit, action shooting sports are done.

I think you're probably right.

[seanc]

The first time an RO is named in a civil suit, action shooting sports are done.

I think you're probably right.

No he's not.

[Brian Payne]

MarkCO

All good comments that make a valid argument. I am guilty of looking at it from the perspective of an older or more seasoned shooter. I have also had the advantage of helping to get a large number of 3-gun shooters started under the umbrella of the MN3GunGroup. We started this group with the intent of making the new 3-gun shooter feel welcomed and to assist them in getting started in 3-gun by having beginner classes, borrowing equipment, and keeping the basic safety rules in concert with most of the major 3-gun matches that the shooter may attend later in their shooting career. Our number one goal was not to crush our competition.

To start your 3-gun career at a major match is an invorgorating experience. To do so without the benefit of being mentored through a more basic match by more experienced shooters would make the first match a challenge I am sure. I have to admit though that I see very few newer shooters posting on these forums complaining about how the match was run.

[Paul-the new guy]

We should at least have a common safety rule set. After that...I say let the MD's do whatever they want.

1st sentence, I agree wholeheartedly. 2nd sentence, for some MDs, most definitely, but or those MDs and RMs who make ruling based things that are inconsistent, like feelings, and if the person is a sponsor or not, or a pro shooter or not...me no like at all!

Funny you should mention this... I am new to this and it has been a huge eye opening experience for me. At the second large match I had ever shot, I felt like I was treated as a second class citizen... I had never been to this range and it was my 4th 3 gun match in my life and 2nd big match. I arrived at the match the day before at around 2:00pm which on the schedule said was during registration, there was no one around. I wanted to look at the layout of the range and the stages so I went looking for someone, I found a guy with a radio and he called someone who said "who is it"... well being a nobody he said he will have to come back tomorrow... about 20 minutes later a well known pro shooter rolled up and was promptly given the royal treatment and transportation to view the stages... I felt like I was outside of the he man cool kids club looking in... I get that I am a nobody but I paid to shoot with my own money I paid my own way there and I bought all my own ammo and paid for my own hotel... All that being said, this is the most fun I have ever had! I just accept the fact that this is kind of a good old boys sport and until I become a good old boy by showing up to as many matches as I can I will be on the outside looking in... I am sure my good old boy status will be delayed or even revoked by this. lol

Edited August 26, 2014 by Paul-the new guy

[SonOfSpartans]

Stage one. Second day of the am. Every one of the 13 poppers fell to an IM choke and 3 dram 7.5 shot.........from the start position.

I did see a couple of people go pistol and hit them BELOW the calibration zone with a shot. They did not fall.

Stage three. A guy shooting rifle had what sounded like a squib. He did not stop and ro did not stop him. We were all backing up and turning away. After the ULASC the RO explained he had a view of gas out the barrel. Gun was fine. Tense few seconds though.

BTW. Poppers on stage five am.... I had a miss with buck and was able to knock the last one down with 7.5 from a light mod. ......

Toughest steel IMO were stage six am. Some stands had the tab in back others in front. (Every other stage tabs were in front) Several shooters hit them low.......repeatedly and the steel just wiggled.

Cutting the cords from my plugs.

[Tech32]

I have a buddy that is known to forget to put his plugs in. He will shoot a stage and say he didn't realize it. The RO usually apologizes for not noticing. I think he's a dumbass for not putting in his plugs, but I don't think it should earn him a DQ. We were told you can stop after the first couple shots and start over if you forget. Is this correct?

[P.E. Kelley]

We should at least have a common safety rule set. After that...I say let the MD's do whatever they want.

1st sentence, I agree wholeheartedly. 2nd sentence, for some MDs, most definitely, but or those MDs and RMs who make ruling based things that are inconsistent, like feelings, and if the person is a sponsor or not, or a pro shooter or not...me no like at all!

I paid to shoot with my own money I paid my own way there and I bought all my own ammo and paid for my own hotel...

Before you go too far down this road...I do the same. Then again so do most of the guys even the top tier shooters.

[SonOfSpartans]

We should at least have a common safety rule set. After that...I say let the MD's do whatever they want.

1st sentence, I agree wholeheartedly. 2nd sentence, for some MDs, most definitely, but or those MDs and RMs who make ruling based things that are inconsistent, like feelings, and if the person is a sponsor or not, or a pro shooter or not...me no like at all!

Funny you should mention this... I am new to this and it has been a huge eye opening experience for me. At the second large match I had ever shot, I felt like I was treated as a second class citizen... I had never been to this range and it was my 4th 3 gun match in my life and 2nd big match. I arrived at the match the day before at around 2:00pm which on the schedule said was during registration, there was no one around. I wanted to look at the layout of the range and the stages so I went looking for someone, I found a guy with a radio and he called someone who said "who is it"... well being a nobody he said he will have to come back tomorrow... about 20 minutes later a well known pro shooter rolled up and was promptly given the royal treatment and transportation to view the stages... I felt like I was outside of the he man cool kids club looking in... I get that I am a nobody but I paid to shoot with my own money I paid my own way there and I bought all my own ammo and paid for my own hotel... All that being said, this is the most fun I have ever had! I just accept the fact that this is kind of a good old boys sport and until I become a good old boy by showing up to as many matches as I can I will be on the outside looking in... I am sure my good old by status will be delayed or even revoked by this. lol

Paul. I was similar with a twist. Fifth match and first outside my club. I got in early and got to watch the RO squad shoot the stages Wednesday and Thursday. A friend and I helped them reset stages. I wish I could say it helped my score......[emoji13]

[Dan Sierpina]

Funny you should mention this... I am new to this and it has been a huge eye opening experience for me. At the second large match I had ever shot, I felt like I was treated as a second class citizen... I had never been to this range and it was my 4th 3 gun match in my life and 2nd big match. I arrived at the match the day before at around 2:00pm which on the schedule said was during registration, there was no one around. I wanted to look at the layout of the range and the stages so I went looking for someone, I found a guy with a radio and he called someone who said "who is it"... well being a nobody he said he will have to come back tomorrow... about 20 minutes later a well known pro shooter rolled up and was promptly given the royal treatment and transportation to view the stages... I felt like I was outside of the he man cool kids club looking in... I get that I am a nobody but I paid to shoot with my own money I paid my own way there and I bought all my own ammo and paid for my own hotel... All that being said, this is the most fun I have ever had! I just accept the fact that this is kind of a good old boys sport and until I become a good old boy by showing up to as many matches as I can I will be on the outside looking in... I am sure my good old by status will be delayed or even revoked by this. lol

Paul,

There is no reason for that treatment. All the matches I've attended, I will usually show up the day before registration, when the RO's are still shooting, then go and check / find the stages. If there are people there shooting, I'll ask if I can look at the stage when they are resetting. Normally there is no problem. If there is no one there, I'll spend time ranging targets and trying to learn not to forget some sneaky targets.

Don't start airgunning, using props etc. Just look it over. You'll get a walk through before you shoot.

[Paul-the new guy]

We should at least have a common safety rule set. After that...I say let the MD's do whatever they want.

1st sentence, I agree wholeheartedly. 2nd sentence, for some MDs, most definitely, but or those MDs and RMs who make ruling based things that are inconsistent, like feelings, and if the person is a sponsor or not, or a pro shooter or not...me no like at all!

I paid to shoot with my own money I paid my own way there and I bought all my own ammo and paid for my own hotel...

Before you go too far down this road...I do the same. Then again so do most of the guys even the top tier shooters.

Which is why in my mind I feel like we should be treated close to the same...

[Dan Sierpina]

I have a buddy that is known to forget to put his plugs in. He will shoot a stage and say he didn't realize it. The RO usually apologizes for not noticing. I think he's a dumbass for not putting in his plugs, but I don't think it should earn him a DQ. We were told you can stop after the first couple shots and start over if you forget. Is this correct?

I don't think a DQ should be given, but, neither is a reshoot. But, if those are the rules, they are the rules. The same as any other rule.

It's kind of like a teen whose parents keep buying them a car when they wreck the current one. No skin in the game. When they have to pay for the car, their driving suddenly gets much better.