RO Suspected of Cheating in USPSA Matches

[remoandiris]

Some posts have mentioned more RO classes or having RO classes at Area matches and such. Keep in mind there is a cost to hold the classes. I don't know if having a class in conjunction with a major costs more or less than a class held by a local club.

Also keep in mind that to hold a class, there needs to be students. I attended the RO class at Nats in Vegas a few years ago. IIRC, we had 8 (yes, EIGHT) students in the class. It was nearly cancelled, but I guess since USPSA already paid to have trainers there and materials shipped, they figured it made sense just to roll with it even with so few students.

Pull out your Front Sight and take a look at staff pics from last year's Nats and other majors. By and large the RO corps for big events is O-L-D. Sure, there are young ROs, but they aren't working the big matches. I don't know if they are simply not interested in working big matches, not able to get extra days off work, or what.

This year USPSA is making it more attractive for ROs to work Nats by giving them a free entry (first time for this AFAIK) along with paying their air fare and other expenses like past years. Probably since the matches will take a few days more they figured to sweeten the pot to get enough staff.

[jester121]

As for Phil's note...that is what it was. It was a note from the President. (I read it online like a everybody else.) That is his purgative.

That's goddamn auto-correct comedy gold right there:

pur·ga·tive [pur-guh-tiv]

adjective

1.purging or cleansing, especially by causing evacuation of the bowels.

[Miranda]

Cheating seems hard to stop.

Because there are good prizes available, there are financial reasons as incentive.

With most competition, the rulebook states no-nos. That means if it is not listed as

'not permitted', then it is permitted.

One can write a 'Dudley Duwright' rule stating if it ain't listed

you can't do it. Keep in mind that is very difficult to enforce.

I can see some solutions.

Use of a video camera as an official back up timer may be

like the chrono, it keeps things honest.

The 'honor' system comes with a back side.

the only real penalty it can use when HONOR is broken is banishment.

I mention honor first because the next possible solution involves

assuming everyone is cheating.

Three shot timers means the shooter gets the time when two timers match.

one timer on the shooter one on the RO and one on the video?

and all three are verified before the time is declared official.

you will find any pattern of timer mis-handling quickly.

When the assumption that 'cheating is normal' is ordinary,

it will seep into other aspects of the competition.

Accusations of any kind will have to be dealt with using some sort of penalty system.

that leaves the holes in the targets to be 'resolved' so all know there is no cheating.

I am not sure I want to be in a game where I face a panel of judges

to get my score...

Using three timers will take some changes and may end up as ordinary.

As far as I can see,

Honor is the quickest way to run.

I can live with honor, as long as banishment is honored.

Edited June 20, 2014 by Miranda

[justaute]

Nicely put. Unfortunately, I also think cheating is quite common. Hell, people can't even let their arms hang naturally at sides.

Cheating in USPSA has been going on since I started. I could tell you many other stories like this, even on the local level for nothing but placement on results.

I guess I am old school. When a man has no honor, integrity or his word doesn't count, then he has nothing.

[BritinUSA]

The best way to prevent this from happening again is to make the punishment severe enough that anyone who comtemplates such an act would be dissuaded by the consequences.

If these accusations are proven beyond a reasonable doubt then I think a lifetime ban is warranted, and it should be widely publicized.

Edited June 20, 2014 by BritinUSA

[MarkCO]

I won't assume to know Strader's thought process, but when I read his statement, I took it to mean that he would deal with those who circumvented the NROI process by putting all of this on the internet instead of sending the information to the proper entities in USPSA. If the SC, AD, Pres, DNROI had not been made aware of the allegations prior to putting it on the internet, that could be considered as being harmful to the organization. If the allegations are true, it is a person that is at fault, not USPSA. USPSA should be judged not on the alleged actions of a member, but on how they deal with impropriety.

[Sarge]

The best way to prevent this from happening again is to make the punishment severe enough that anyone who comtemplates such an act would be dissuaded by the consequences.

If these accusations are proven beyond a reasonable doubt then I think a lifetime ban is warranted, and it should be widely publicized.

EXACTLY! If there is action taken against the shooter(s) every member of USPSA should be told what was done. This would be the best deterrent to future cheating.

[Sarge]

Nicely put. Unfortunately, I also think cheating is quite common. Hell, people can't even let their arms hang naturally at sides.

Cheating in USPSA has been going on since I started. I could tell you many other stories like this, even on the local level for nothing but placement on results.

I guess I am old school. When a man has no honor, integrity or his word doesn't count, then he has nothing.

I think there is some small amount of cheating going on all the time but I think this case is way beyond arms naturally at sides.

[Cy Soto]

I think there is some small amount of cheating going on all the time...

That's a pretty serious allegation there. If a person is aware of any type of cheating in our sport and allows said behavior to go unpunished, aren't they as culpable as the cheater himself?

[Jayohee]

I'm pretty new to USPSA but so far from what I've been reading here and elsewhere they do not seem to be the most transparent organization. Granted it is indeed large and run by volunteers who probably have full-time jobs and families, it shouldn't be too difficult to say:

- Here is what happened

- This is what we plan to do about it

- Here is how we can help make sure it won't happen again

Again, not easy to do for a large organization, but not impossible either.

[Sarge]

I think there is some small amount of cheating going on all the time...

That's a pretty serious allegation there. If a person is aware of any type of cheating in our sport and allows said behavior to go unpunished, aren't they as culpable as the cheater himself?

Look at any picture of the nationals with the illegal start positions. The Prez is the MD I believe? And DNROI is the RM? You honestly think some people don't have special chrono ammo stashed away in their bags? You don't think there are paper GM's who have shot a classifier over and over until they hit the magic number? You don't think there is a stats guy who submitted that score? You don't think people are mixing and matching frames with slides and shooting Production with them?

These are comparatively minor but I think anyone with any curiosity at all can find them going on.

Obviously the current alledged cheating scandal appears to have been going on for years so that in itself means there has been some level of cheating going on regularly.

[Chills1994]

If somebody could make iKam glasses or the Pivotheads include an onboard ShotCoach type app, they could make a killing.

My TV is still a huge CRT, so I don't have a clue what the (HDMI?) ports or jacks are like on the newer HD flat screen TV's...that would be sweet to be able to plug your glasses into the TV at the match hotel and play the files from the glasses back directly on the TV.

(just to avoid having a laptop computer with you)

If you have any hard copy "receipts" of your scores from your first day at a major match, you could check out your iKam/Pivotheads+ShotCoach feature video later that night to make sure your times jive up with the receipts.

[Vlad]

Look at any picture of the nationals with the illegal start positions. The Prez is the MD I believe? And DNROI is the RM? You honestly think some people don't have special chrono ammo stashed away in their bags? You don't think there are paper GM's who have shot a classifier over and over until they hit the magic number? You don't think there is a stats guy who submitted that score? You don't think people are mixing and matching frames with slides and shooting Production with them?

These are comparatively minor but I think anyone with any curiosity at all can find them going on.

Obviously the current alledged cheating scandal appears to have been going on for years so that in itself means there has been some level of cheating going on regularly.

I think there is a vast difference between someone creeping their start position or someone using franken gun in production (which most emulates other legal guns in production anyway) and RO's cheating.

Think of car racing, every mechanic tries very hard to squeeze ever adventage he can for his team out of his equipment, maybe some would call that gaming some would call it cheating, but it isn't as if the someone is changing the final times.

I think EVERY sporting event is going to have the competitors push the bounds of the rules because that happens when you have a bunch of alpha types wanting to measure up to each others and the results can be decided by a couple of inches on single target or half a second on the clock. It is the job of the officials to keep that under control, and sometimes the official do a good job and sometimes they don't.

However there is a GIANT difference between sport official incompetence or inattention in the face of competitor cheating and intentional cheating the official themselves. This is why this is such a large issue, not because someone slight of handed their powder puff load for the major ammo in a baggie.

Edited June 21, 2014 by Vlad

[Sarge]

Look at any picture of the nationals with the illegal start positions. The Prez is the MD I believe? And DNROI is the RM? You honestly think some people don't have special chrono ammo stashed away in their bags? You don't think there are paper GM's who have shot a classifier over and over until they hit the magic number? You don't think there is a stats guy who submitted that score? You don't think people are mixing and matching frames with slides and shooting Production with them?

These are comparatively minor but I think anyone with any curiosity at all can find them going on.

Obviously the current alledged cheating scandal appears to have been going on for years so that in itself means there has been some level of cheating going on regularly.

I think there is a vast difference between someone creeping their start position or someone using franken gun in production (which most emulates other legal guns in production anyway) and RO's cheating.

Think of car racing, every mechanic tries very hard to squeeze ever adventage he can for his team out of his equipment, maybe some would call that gaming some would call it cheating, but it isn't as if the someone is changing the final times.

I think EVERY sporting event is going to have the competitors push the bounds of the rules because that happens when you have a bunch of alpha types wanting to measure up to each others and the results can be decided by a couple of inches on single target or half a second on the clock. It is the job of the officials to keep that under control, and sometimes the official do a good job and sometimes they don't.

However there is a GIANT difference between sport official incompetence or inattention in the face of competitor cheating and intentional cheating the official themselves. This is why this is such a large issue, not because someone slight of handed their powder puff load for the major ammo in a baggie.

Which is why I specifically said they were "comparatively minor". But they are still cheating

[cohland]

Thinking more about this, I have to say that it doesn't sound as much like organized cheating with a clear purpose (advancing your "friends'" interests) as it does just simply "playing God".

Chris

Edited June 21, 2014 by cohland

[Noximus03]

Obviously, we've all seen cheating in our sport in some form or fashion. This whole thing just put it in public light. Same way Donald Sterlings true racism came to light with the Clippers ordeal. Everyone knew about it for years within the league, but no one ever really did anything about it. Same exact situation here (sans racism).

Whats my point, you ask? Its that hopefully some good will come out of this regardless of the outcome of the investigation.

More/better/updated RO training? Better awareness of shooters with regards to the "Shooter is responsible to ensure accuracy of their scores/time" rule. New rule requiring the timer be viewed by the RO, 2nd RO, and shooter?

I'm making the attempt to view this in some kind of a positive light. Mostly what I read in other places regarding this deals solely with "whos at fault"? When did such and such AD KNOW about this before it all became public? And blah blah blah. Who really cares whos at fault for whatever reason. This is a golden opportunity for all of us to effect good, honest change to a problem. Just my .02.......

(edited for spelling corrections lest Sarge yell at me, lol)

Edited June 21, 2014 by Noximus03

[kneelingatlas]

I think a simple YouTube video on the proper way to run a shooter and score a stage would be hugely beneficial to the membership.

[GrumpyOne]

Look at any picture of the nationals with the illegal start positions. The Prez is the MD I believe? And DNROI is the RM? You honestly think some people don't have special chrono ammo stashed away in their bags? You don't think there are paper GM's who have shot a classifier over and over until they hit the magic number? You don't think there is a stats guy who submitted that score? You don't think people are mixing and matching frames with slides and shooting Production with them?

These are comparatively minor but I think anyone with any curiosity at all can find them going on.

Obviously the current alledged cheating scandal appears to have been going on for years so that in itself means there has been some level of cheating going on regularly.

I think there is a vast difference between someone creeping their start position or someone using franken gun in production (which most emulates other legal guns in production anyway) and RO's cheating.

Think of car racing, every mechanic tries very hard to squeeze ever adventage he can for his team out of his equipment, maybe some would call that gaming some would call it cheating, but it isn't as if the someone is changing the final times.

I think EVERY sporting event is going to have the competitors push the bounds of the rules because that happens when you have a bunch of alpha types wanting to measure up to each others and the results can be decided by a couple of inches on single target or half a second on the clock. It is the job of the officials to keep that under control, and sometimes the official do a good job and sometimes they don't.

However there is a GIANT difference between sport official incompetence or inattention in the face of competitor cheating and intentional cheating the official themselves. This is why this is such a large issue, not because someone slight of handed their powder puff load for the major ammo in a baggie.

Which is why I specifically said they were "comparatively minor". But they are still cheating

Yes sir! Like that girl being a little bit pregnant....then there are those that cheat unknowingly...like the holster that puts the gun 2.125" from the inner belt...they may have taken the manufacturers word that it was legal...but even if it were 2.00001", it would still be illegal, and as such, cheating....but does it provide a "real" advantage? Probably not...but that doesn't matter.... Edited June 21, 2014 by GrumpyOne

[Miranda]

Grumpy one, I like your post.

I hope I get this quote right

when a man makes an honest mistake

he has a choice, he can fix the mistake or he can cease to be honest.

[justaute]

Grumpy...well stated.

I'm the one who initially mentioned the "...arms hanging naturally" snippet, so I'll amplify the reason why I did so. Notwithstanding each person's unique physical make-up, there is a "natural" state of how arms hang by the sides -- thus, some latitude should be given. However, many competitors grossly abuse that latitude. The reason I even brought up this subject was that although this is just a minor, perhaps insignificant, infraction, one's character can be meaningfully observed. If one is willing to take a gross short-cut, then everything else is just a slippery slope.

Having been a collegiate athlete and still play other competitive sports, I've seen a full spectrum of behaviors -- I'm sure many of you have, as well. It's just that what I've seen in this shooting sport thus far, much of it is pretty obvious and blatant -- much of it are committed by well-know GMs. I've gone as far as advising a few young, junior shooters to limit their exposure to these GMs. They can shoot, no doubt about it, but they are horrible examples to others.

Look at any picture of the nationals with the illegal start positions. The Prez is the MD I believe? And DNROI is the RM? You honestly think some people don't have special chrono ammo stashed away in their bags? You don't think there are paper GM's who have shot a classifier over and over until they hit the magic number? You don't think there is a stats guy who submitted that score? You don't think people are mixing and matching frames with slides and shooting Production with them?
These are comparatively minor but I think anyone with any curiosity at all can find them going on.
Obviously the current alledged cheating scandal appears to have been going on for years so that in itself means there has been some level of cheating going on regularly.

I think there is a vast difference between someone creeping their start position or someone using franken gun in production (which most emulates other legal guns in production anyway) and RO's cheating.
Think of car racing, every mechanic tries very hard to squeeze ever adventage he can for his team out of his equipment, maybe some would call that gaming some would call it cheating, but it isn't as if the someone is changing the final times.
I think EVERY sporting event is going to have the competitors push the bounds of the rules because that happens when you have a bunch of alpha types wanting to measure up to each others and the results can be decided by a couple of inches on single target or half a second on the clock. It is the job of the officials to keep that under control, and sometimes the official do a good job and sometimes they don't.

However there is a GIANT difference between sport official incompetence or inattention in the face of competitor cheating and intentional cheating the official themselves. This is why this is such a large issue, not because someone slight of handed their powder puff load for the major ammo in a baggie.

Which is why I specifically said they were "comparatively minor". But they are still cheating

Yes sir! Like that girl being a little bit pregnant....then there are those that cheat unknowingly...like the holster that puts the gun 2.125" from the inner belt...they may have taken the manufacturers word that it was legal...but even if it were 2.00001", it would still be illegal, and as such, cheating....but does it provide a "real" advantage? Probably not...but that doesn't matter....

Edited June 21, 2014 by justaute

[BritinUSA]

I think 'arms relaxed at sides' should be dropped and the default start position should be 'wrists above respective shoulders' like Steel Challenge. It's easier to enforce as there's less interpretation involved.

[Jaxshooter]

It is true that cheating goes on in every sport but when it comes to light something has to be done immediately to curb it. The punishment should be equal to the offence and in this case if proven to be true should the individual(s) involved should be banned from the sport for life.

If this is caused by the value of the prizes available as mentioned in several posts. Separate the matches into two divisions amateur and professional. Put the pros money in the pot and let them shoot for it. If they pay a high entry fee they will self monitor the cheating situation. The amateurs can pay a relative low entry free and shoot for trophies or plaques.

[apowers1214]

Grumpy one, I like your post.

I hope I get this quote right

when a man makes an honest mistake

he has a choice, he can fix the mistake or he can cease to be honest.

well said!

[justaute]

I think the start position should be the index finger of both hands must touch competitor's nose -- anywhere of it.

p.s. No shoot-through(s) at Level 2 and higher.

I think 'arms relaxed at sides' should be dropped and the default start position should be 'wrists above respective shoulders' like Steel Challenge. It's easier to enforce as there's less interpretation involved.

[Tom C]

I think the start position should be the index finger of both hands must touch competitor's nose -- anywhere of it.

p.s. No shoot-through(s) at Level 2 and higher.

I think 'arms relaxed at sides' should be dropped and the default start position should be 'wrists above respective shoulders' like Steel Challenge. It's easier to enforce as there's less interpretation involved.

What if they are missing one index finger? lmao..Yea...I knew what ya meant. Surrender, fingers touching ears (if using plugs), fingers touching hearing protectors (if wearing the more classic ear muff style).