RO Suspected of Cheating in USPSA Matches

[DoubleL]

Wow. A huge list of due process just hit doodie. It's compiled neatly and nicely. Even with a proper title. Video evidence of this volume is staggering when seen in list form.

[alma]

Dozens of videos from multiple sources have been brought to light and while it is true that videos can be manipulated the fact that these videos span four years worth of shooting events and have been on YouTube for as long makes large-scale modification a colossal conspiracy or an impossibility.

It's also true that videos compression or transposition could change timestamp somewhat however it would not change time is so exact a manner multiple times during the same video depending on who the RO happened to be at the time. The pattern is exactly consistent: friends get time removed, others get time added, and times called by alternative ROs are consistent with the time being analyzed by the Shot Coach app or even a simple stop watch. It is readily apparent to anyone who cares to examine the evidence that has been collected all who love the sport should be saddened by this limited but significant breach of integrity.

[Willz]

The ROs at my club are very good about showing you the timer and the time entered on the pad before they save it. We used to have each shooter initial the score sheet for each stage confirming their times were correct, due for the most part to lawyering scores after they were posted.

Honest mistakes are one thing, deliberate score tampering is another.

Edited June 19, 2014 by Willz

[AJE]

Since I'm a fan of due process, and have a little experience in the still side of photography, I sincerely hope they consult with someone who is experienced with forensic videography. I'm not at all convinced that putting a timer to youtube videos is scientifically accurate -- when we know nothing about the equipment used in filming, the settings selected, whether or not clips were edited or had frames clipped in any manner, the accuracy of sound synchronization with the picture, and the effect of various compression algorithms......

And I haven't even touched on the potential effect of Youtube's software, or content delivery over the inter webs.....

It looks like something at first glance. If we had an RO doing this that's pretty bad -- but if the whole situation is a lot of smoke with no fire, then a good man's reputation got dragged through the mud. That would be a way worse outcome. Now, where's my copy of Miller's The Crucible? It's starting to feel a bit like Congress in the 1950s here.....

Congress in the 50's didn't have this kind of technology.

If you watch some of the videos, the timer is alarmingly consistent on the stages where the RO isn't in question. I understand the skepticism but it didn't take long for me to be convinced.

[Xhris]

Since I'm a fan of due process, and have a little experience in the still side of photography, I sincerely hope they consult with someone who is experienced with forensic videography. I'm not at all convinced that putting a timer to youtube videos is scientifically accurate -- when we know nothing about the equipment used in filming, the settings selected, whether or not clips were edited or had frames clipped in any manner, the accuracy of sound synchronization with the picture, and the effect of various compression algorithms......

And I haven't even touched on the potential effect of Youtube's software, or content delivery over the inter webs.....

It looks like something at first glance. If we had an RO doing this that's pretty bad -- but if the whole situation is a lot of smoke with no fire, then a good man's reputation got dragged through the mud. That would be a way worse outcome. Now, where's my copy of Miller's The Crucible? It's starting to feel a bit like Congress in the 1950s here.....

Congress in the 50's didn't have this kind of technology.

If you watch some of the videos, the timer is alarmingly consistent on the stages where the RO isn't in question. I understand the skepticism but it didn't take long for me to be convinced.

As a video guy, it was my first concern as well. I went through all the possible ways that video could be "Altered" to change the speed, and then the light bulb went off, this has nothing to do with the video, and everything to do with the audio track associated w/the video. No matter what you do to the frame, the audio track will stay consistent.

I pulled the videos down, dropped them into FinalCutPro, and I had the same results within .5 as they had with the software.

[Chills1994]

Since I'm a fan of due process, and have a little experience in the still side of photography, I sincerely hope they consult with someone who is experienced with forensic videography. I'm not at all convinced that putting a timer to youtube videos is scientifically accurate -- when we know nothing about the equipment used in filming, the settings selected, whether or not clips were edited or had frames clipped in any manner, the accuracy of sound synchronization with the picture, and the effect of various compression algorithms......

And I haven't even touched on the potential effect of Youtube's software, or content delivery over the inter webs.....

It looks like something at first glance. If we had an RO doing this that's pretty bad -- but if the whole situation is a lot of smoke with no fire, then a good man's reputation got dragged through the mud. That would be a way worse outcome. Now, where's my copy of Miller's The Crucible? It's starting to feel a bit like Congress in the 1950s here.....

Take my video here:

And either sit there with a stopwatch to see if the times you get jive up with the times I call out off the timer's display.

Or run that video through the ShotCoach app.

It's just me at the range by myself, so if I was calling out spurious times, I would only be cheating myself.

On a different note...

If matches or clubs go to the CED big board displays it would be nice if CED could reconfigure the display to include number of shots fired.

Who makes the yellow displays that Instructor Zero uses?

[Hi-Power Jack]

I've had an RO accidentally add seconds to my time, a few times.

Hit the buzzer, which I didn't hear ...

Hit the buzzer the 2nd time, closer to my ear, which I did hear ...

BUT, the few seconds between buzzer 1 & 2 were not deleted - purely accidental, but another

possible cause of a timing error.

These were all at local matches.

[apowers1214]

The big CED boards are not always accurate when recording time. There is a significant delay between the two timers communicating.

[JFlowers]

Whether he did it or not and what action the USPSA and NROI take is out of my hands. But what I would like to see come out of this is the USPSA ROs become a more professional group. Now before you get your back up, I think for a bunch of volunteers we all do the very best job we can, often under trying circumstances.

I would like to see more Continuing Education. Doesn't have to be much. A library of CBT videos, each 15-30 mins long, covering the host of topics ROs run into - for example "Significant Advantage". The video could be an automated PowerPoint, a video of an RO and shooter on the range, John A. sitting and talking. I have to do dozens of these a year for my job on HIPPA, HITECH, Ethics, etc etc.

I would like to see the classes scheduled better. I think each Area match should include a RO/CRO class. Maybe at least every other year. It always seems classes are far away, badly timed, or poorly advertised and therefore hard to get to.

I think USPSA needs to do a better job of recognizing ROs. USPSA/NROI should know every match I have RO'd at at what level I worked (Staff, RO, CRO, etc). Not for issues like this but for recognition purposes. ROs who have worked a set number of matches deserve some recognition. Only if its a page in Front Sight of ROs getting their 50 match pin, 100 match pin, etc.

I think IPSC uses RO shirts and expects ROs to work major matches in them. I think that is a cool idea. When you look professional, you feel professional and act professional.

I do have a concern that a more structured professional group of ROs could impact the bottom line of matches. That basically you pay for what you get and so matches would have to compensate ROs better. I know at higher levels IPSC seems to dictate what that compensation is and I don't think we need to go quite that far.

Someone said they were going to ask to see the timer, I think that is a legitimate request. But seeing the last split? No. If the RO has to stand with the shooter and go through the splits before they can get to scorring targets and get stage reset started, we are now adding delays to matches that are typically already pushed.

[Chris Keen]

I love everything J Flowers just said, especially the RO shirts, but keep this in mind, many timers, including the CED 7000 already show the last split right on the timer display. Shouldn't take any extra time to see that.

Edited June 19, 2014 by Chris Keen

[JFlowers]

Chris.... That could be. I am so use to the PACT timers where you would have to flip back through them. If its already on the screen, then it wouldn't be an issue. I am sure there are other ideas, other steps we could take to make USPSA ROs better.

[Racer377]

Seeing the last split is part of verifying the time. If hendrix were a smart cheater, he'd have just given the timer a little tap after a few seconds had gone by, or held it somewhat close to the gun at ULSC to get the slide snapping shut to register a time, to screw the people he didn't like, and could then say "I just read the timer!" with plausible deniability.

[JFlowers]

The issue with the "last split" is always going to be one of time. At a major match, ROs have a pretty fixed amount of time to get a shooter through the stage and the stage reset. Now you are adding the time to cycle through all the shots on the timer to get the last split to that. Yes it might only be 45 seconds. But thats 45 seconds for 14 shooters for 10 squads. That almost 2 hours added to the shooting day. That doesn't include the time taken "discussing" the fact that you are not happy with the last split and is it valid. A timer that displays it already is great. The RO shows the shooter the timer and you get what you want from it.

Personally, I always look at the timer at the last shot so I can insure things like slide racking, bumping, etc don't get charged to the shooter.

[apowers1214]

I agree with you on the additional time JFlowers. I also agree with the professional level increase for RO staff. I know when I played paintball they way around this was the crews working the events didn't play in them. I think the videos would be a great learning tool.

[seanc]

The shooter also needs to review the times of last split if they want to keep the RO honest.

Yeah, and number of shots which can be a problem if ro is not keeping up with shooter.

[deerassassin22]

Whether he did it or not and what action the USPSA and NROI take is out of my hands. But what I would like to see come out of this is the USPSA ROs become a more professional group. Now before you get your back up, I think for a bunch of volunteers we all do the very best job we can, often under trying circumstances.

I would like to see more Continuing Education. Doesn't have to be much. A library of CBT videos, each 15-30 mins long, covering the host of topics ROs run into - for example "Significant Advantage". The video could be an automated PowerPoint, a video of an RO and shooter on the range, John A. sitting and talking. I have to do dozens of these a year for my job on HIPPA, HITECH, Ethics, etc etc.

I would like to see the classes scheduled better. I think each Area match should include a RO/CRO class. Maybe at least every other year. It always seems classes are far away, badly timed, or poorly advertised and therefore hard to get to.

I think USPSA needs to do a better job of recognizing ROs. USPSA/NROI should know every match I have RO'd at at what level I worked (Staff, RO, CRO, etc). Not for issues like this but for recognition purposes. ROs who have worked a set number of matches deserve some recognition. Only if its a page in Front Sight of ROs getting their 50 match pin, 100 match pin, etc.

I think IPSC uses RO shirts and expects ROs to work major matches in them. I think that is a cool idea. When you look professional, you feel professional and act professional.

I do have a concern that a more structured professional group of ROs could impact the bottom line of matches. That basically you pay for what you get and so matches would have to compensate ROs better. I know at higher levels IPSC seems to dictate what that compensation is and I don't think we need to go quite that far.

Someone said they were going to ask to see the timer, I think that is a legitimate request. But seeing the last split? No. If the RO has to stand with the shooter and go through the splits before they can get to scorring targets and get stage reset started, we are now adding delays to matches that are typically already pushed.

I like this idea especially with the pins/shirt and more continious training.

[deerassassin22]

The issue with the "last split" is always going to be one of time. At a major match, ROs have a pretty fixed amount of time to get a shooter through the stage and the stage reset. Now you are adding the time to cycle through all the shots on the timer to get the last split to that. Yes it might only be 45 seconds. But thats 45 seconds for 14 shooters for 10 squads. That almost 2 hours added to the shooting day. That doesn't include the time taken "discussing" the fact that you are not happy with the last split and is it valid. A timer that displays it already is great. The RO shows the shooter the timer and you get what you want from it.

Personally, I always look at the timer at the last shot so I can insure things like slide racking, bumping, etc don't get charged to the shooter.

Agree as well. We all have a guy who thinks he is faster then what he is and always argues the last shot when viewing splits.

[RussellM]

Im just going to wear a shotmaxx timer from now on. If the times don't come very close to matching then there is an issue. This is obviously not a solution for everyone but I spend too much time and money on USPSA to get hosed by the timer.

[twodownzero]

Since I'm a fan of due process ...

He's getting exactly the process that is "due" to him, which is to have his RO cert yanked and a week's notice so the BOD can convene a meeting and boot him.

"Due" process doesn't mean something specific. It simply means that the process must fit what is at stake.

It doesn't take a forensic examiner to realize this guy has been screwing people over for years at this point.

[JakeMartens]

So what about the shooter that seems to have benefitted the most from this? There have been trips to the prize table, STI contingency and state championship titles awarded to him, what is happening there?

[shred]

Most of the basic timers either have a 'split' button that you can tap to get the last split or show it on the screen. The problem is sometimes shots do get missed, so the really good ROs try to have one eye on the shooter and one on the timer at the last target.

FWIW, looks like Chuck Anderson is leading the cheating investigation for USPSA.

[alma]

So what about the shooter that seems to have benefitted the most from this? There have been trips to the prize table, STI contingency and state championship titles awarded to him, what is happening there?

I haven't seen anything formal about any others who may have known or benefited. It's easy to prove that this guy is guilty but not so easy to prove that others were in on it. They get the benefit of the doubt.

[cohland]

I'm surprised to see that this sort of misbehavior is even possible. Although I only attend local USPSA matches, we've always used a procedure that would prevent this sort of thing. The RO calls out the time and SHOWS THE TIMER to to assistant RO (Scorekeeper in our parlance) who then repeats the time and writes it on the score sheet. Unless both of them are cooperating in cheating, time cheating is almost impossible.

Chris

Edited June 19, 2014 by cohland

[JakeMartens]

So what about the shooter that seems to have benefitted the most from this? There have been trips to the prize table, STI contingency and state championship titles awarded to him, what is happening there?

I haven't seen anything formal about any others who may have known or benefited. It's easy to prove that this guy is guilty but not so easy to prove that others were in on it. They get the benefit of the doubt.

So no one thinks that anyone else was involved or knew that they were benefiting from have time shaved from their runs and time added to others that were shooting in the same division? Two guys that traveled together, worked matches together, trained together over several years and it was never brought up over a beer after a trip to the prize table.....

[L3324temp]

I'm surprised to see that this sort of misbehavior is even possible. Although I only attend local USPSA matches, we've always used a procedure that would prevent this sort of thing. The RO calls out the time and SHOWS THE TIMER to to assistant RO (Scorekeeper in our parlance) who then repeats the time and writes it on the score sheet. Unless both of them are cooperating in cheating, time cheating is almost impossible.

Chris

It's quite easy unless you look over the timer and splits or really have someone watching the RO.

The RO could hit the back button one time before he shows anyone for guys he likes

The RO could tap the timer on his firearm one time after the last shot is fired for those he doesn't.