RO Suspected of Cheating in USPSA Matches

[Flexmoney]

The clocks are great in theory, but lack a bit in execution. They can lag, and might miss shots (when communication to the timer is iffy).

For the purposes here, they would need to be where the shooter could see them...as opposed to being placed where it would be cool for spectators.

I do like them though. The club I first started at had them in the beginning (The R U Ready brand). We have a CED version or two around our current club.

Not really sold on their durability either. (either brand)

Here is an example with one working fairly well:

And, here is an example with some lag:

Both examples are with the timer pretty close to the big board display.

[BSeevers]

Cheating in USPSA has been going on since I started. I could tell you many other stories like this, even on the local level for nothing but placement on results.

I guess I am old school. When a man has no honor, integrity or his word doesn't count, then he has nothing.

[Jaxshooter]

If this proves to be true this person should be banned for life from the USPSA. The information should be passed on to the other organized shooting sports if possible.

[Sparky]

This is sad; I have shot this sport since 1979 and honor and integrity are what

defines our sport. What little I have seen about the RO in question is that he

looks at the timer and calls out the time without showing the scoring RO the

timer. I'm not longer an RO (was a Cop for 40 years), but every time I ran a

shooter I showed the timer to the scoring RO. I believe these allegations need

to be investigated and we should hold off convicting this guy until enough

evidence is found to do so.................

[alma]

The ShotMaxx timer has a BlueTooth interface and while it doesn't work very well right now that seems like an obvious direction for the technology. It has good range but also imagine being able to automatically save all recorded shots, splits, and etc with the stage score. No more calling out times for transcription alone. The time would automatically populate in PractiScore.

[gondo]

I'm surprised to see that this sort of misbehavior is even possible. Although I only attend local USPSA matches, we've always used a procedure that would prevent this sort of thing. The RO calls out the time and SHOWS THE TIMER to to assistant RO (Scorekeeper in our parlance) who then repeats the time and writes it on the score sheet. Unless both of them are cooperating in cheating, time cheating is almost impossible.

Chris

It's quite easy unless you look over the timer and splits or really have someone watching the RO.

The RO could hit the back button one time before he shows anyone for guys he likes

The RO could tap the timer on his firearm one time after the last shot is fired for those he doesn't.

Thats so dirty.

[deerassassin22]

That would be cool

[Tom C]

When I served as section coordinator in Area 4 we used the RFID displays for the crowd but, at that time, the only official time came off the timer in the RO's hand (yea, I didn't read all posts so forgive me if I'm rehashing anything). It was my understanding that, when scoring went electronic the timer info including time was downloaded and, till people were satisfied with the systems performence, a printout would be made. I've since stopped shooting USPSA and moved to IDPA..blemishes and all, but subject brought up in this thread should bother all honest people. I remember witnessing some shooters getting "better" treatment than others...in both venues. To be honest, I've had some calls at local matches go my way when they really shouldn't have. I don't believe the "nods" at local matches are systemic (I sure hope not anyway). As shooters, regardless of sport, we have to police ourselves and strive to always keep it clean. BTW...I might be rejoining USPSA in the near future. To me if I'm shooting I'm learning, and I do love shooting, handguns especially.

[A-shot]

I am USPSA for life, good thing there isn't some dope that makes us shoot straight, like viagra for the arms....

Edited June 19, 2014 by A-shot

[A-shot]

Cheating in USPSA has been going on since I started. I could tell you many other stories like this, even on the local level for nothing but placement on results.

I guess I am old school. When a man has no honor, integrity or his word doesn't count, then he has nothing.

Also that +1

[Jamiethesquid]

 

I agree with you on the additional time JFlowers. I also agree with the professional level increase for RO staff. I know when I played paintball they way around this was the crews working the events didn't play in them. I think the videos would be a great learning tool.

 

I do not support the RO's not Playing if they are working, The RO position is voluntary. I am an RO, I volunteer, I take no pay for this, I show up with the very first people, to set up, register, talk to new shooters, run a squad in 100 deg heat and -20 deg cold. Do the safety briefs. Have a safe and fun shooting experience, Stay till dark to breakdown and store all the materials, and I enjoy every minute of it. I agree that "this person" has brought great shame to himself and much can be done to improve the sport.

However, There are a very small group of people dedicated to running this sport, month after month around the country, and if we don't get to play, no body gets to play!!

I absolutely and emphatically agree that more training and continuing training is necessary. I hate to compare this to IDPA, but here goes. I was an IDPA S.O. also, I say WAS, because I have chosen to concentrate on USPSA exclusively, and haven's shot IDPA in 2-3 years. One thing that IDPA had right was that if, you wanted to be an SO, you would Roger up, the Club MD would set a date and time and would hold a Training Class, Class Passed, Paperwork Submitted, SO Card came in the Mail.

I have been shooting USPSA, since 2007 as a non-member, I RO'd local Matches as a non-qualified RO, I became a member 2/29/12 and finally found a seat in an RO class 6/10/13. Why is this? why so few NROI classes? Why so Geographically spread out, for often a large fee charged. I was "Lucky", I attended the class for free because it was paid for by SIG Sauer Academy in conjunction with the 2013 Area 7 match. The class was Taught by John Amidon, a great instructor and a wealth of knowledge, BUT!! Is all of that really necessary.

Here is my proposal, and I would gladly talk to anyone at HQ about this.

1. Establish a official RO, CRO, MD training program, maybe one exists already within NROI, I have a workbook of sorts from my RO class, great. Now take that approved curriculum, and publish it on the web for all members to see. Chapter 1, record a You Tube video, do a Powerpoint presentation something, whatever it takes, get the material out there, embed in the training material, pertinent rule changes, BoD rulings, clarifications of rules, a text document with all the "Inside NROI" columns from Front Sight. Do this for every single chapter and section in the rule book.

If a shooter is interested in becoming an RO, they should be able to go onto the USPSA site, Log in, go through all the material with explanations, take an open book practice test, print out his completed test, everything. Make this a requirement to get your RO cert, before attending a class.

2. This brings me to my second point, Looking at the USPSA site under the NROI tab for the entire 2014 listing there is only ONE RO class in New England for 2014, what does that seat 20-30 students? So we have members through out Area 7 that would love to take the class, but...if they can't make it to that class they will have to wait another year or travel a very long distance. The next option would be to travel to North Carolina or Ohio. Not feasible for very many.

Solution: Make more RO instructors. We have people throughout the country that have been RO'ing for years, CRO's, Match Directors, Range Masters, Masters and Grand Masters. Get them certified to put on more classes. If we establish an online training system, the class would mostly be a review, a bit of Discussion and Clarification, a Range portion with a bit of shooting and then the normal online open book test. Come on!! if we are not having at least 5-10 classes a year in each of the 8 Areas we are severely limiting our pool of staff. No wonder we can't scare up the help and people burn out.

3. Do all of the above, for all of the levels of NROI certification, I am an RO, I really want to become a CRO, and a MD, and who knows someday I might want to run for a Sectional or Area position. Back to the NROI tab. There are 4 CRO classes listed, I live in Maine, the classes are in Alaska, Nevada, Arizona, and Georgia this year, Which one do you think I will be able to make it to. You Guessed it!! None!! Unacceptable.

I love Shooting USPSA matches, I probably like working them a little bit better than that, I am a volunteer by nature, I served in the military, I am a natural teacher and instructor. I would love to see the sport grow, more clubs, more shooters, more matches.

Give us the tools to succeed!!

We are making great strides in the technology realm, Practiscore has made scoring much faster and less time consuming, but it is Garbage in and Garbage out if we are not entering scores correctly. There is no explanation for the recent events, it makes me a little sick to think about the ramifications going forward and for the people this has allegedly helped and hurt.

Make an immediate rule that the RO will show the timer display to the Shooter and to the Score Keeper after the "Range is Clear" is called out.

This has a couple implications. First, the shooter will see the last split, the final time and make sure that it checks out, the score keeper will see it and should repeat it back then enter it. The score keeper is the second RO on the stage, he is looking for foot faults, he is backing up the RO, he or she should be watching for extra shots, failure to engage, correct procedure followed, foot faults. The primary RO is right on the shooters heels watching for all these things, and acting as the primary safety observer, I am watching the gun, the trigger finger, the muzzle, the finger in the trigger guard while moving, I may not always be able to do all that and count the number of shots fired before a mandatory reload or whether the target was actually engaged or if there were 2 misses. That means that even at the local matches and especially at the Major matches, the Score Keeper needs to be proceeding down range with the Shooter and RO and assisting, not standing in the shade relaxing.

I Highly recommend that the final split is shown and called out, and required that it is done for Major Matches. Most all, except the most antiquated timers in use show the split time on the screen. Next, put out some guidance on how to properly set up the timer for use. At a local match I have seen some real relics for timers, and many of us, my self included bring our own timers for use on the range. For major matches, that really may no longer be acceptable. We play a game where matches are won and classifications are earned by fractions of a second and single points down on a target.

My timer has always to my knowledge picked up all the shots fired in a course, it has a sensitivity adjustment that I have never messed with. I am close enough to the shooter that the Sound Pressure Level of the shot being fired registers on the timer. Some have suggested that merely tapping the timer or being to close for the unload and show clear and the sound of the slide or hammer dropping will register on the timer. I don't think that is the case. In order to test my timer I either have to smack the microphone very hard or yell bang into it. Our shooting bays are usually very close together and if the guy in the next bay blasting away with his open gun, loud enough to require hearing protection in my bay is not tripping my timer then your hammer dropping one inch is sure not going to do it. That is of course as long as your timer has not been set to Air Soft sensitivity levels from your last practice session. The club should approve the use of certain makes and models of timers for official match use, they should have a laminated sheet that tells exactly how to set the timer up for match use, how to set the delay to instant, what sensitivity level to use, how to review the data etc.

For a major match those timers should be taken to the chrono stage, a qualified person should verify that the timer is charged, set up correctly, and hell why not line them up on a table and fire a couple of live rounds over them to verify they work. Nothing worse than having to reshoot a shooter, or have to reshoot as a shooter because the darn timer is not working or picking up other shots. Then slap a Sticker on it that tells everyone that it has been checked and the thing should work. I am not going to be impressed when I go to a major match and I have an RO running me with a watch type timer. Nothing against the timer, but they are too new, no one understands them and I don't want to trust my match to some new toy that belongs to the RO personally and has an inertia sensor that is designed to reject shots if not worn on the shooters wrist. I better have faith that the RO knows how to operate it, the timer is set up correctly and that Air Soft mode is off and the Inertia sensor is not used.

So take it with a grain of salt, dismiss my thoughts all together, comment back and give me your thoughts. Rant mode OFF!

[ExtremeShot]

Agreed. There are too many ways for an RO (anyone holding the timer) to cheat, by either flicking/tapping the timer to add time, or covering the mic on last few shots to reduce time, etc. I for one will be asking to see me last shot AND my last split at all matches (both Majors & locals) from here on out. I think all 3 people at the end of the stage (Timer RO, Clipboard RO, & shooter) should review the time visually & verbally OUT LOUD for all to witness. And regardless of admission into arbitration or anything else, anyone who videos another shooter should ALWAYS make sure to keep the camera rolling long enough to hear the time called out loud. It may not stand up in an arb, but it goes a long way in the court of public opinion. IMHO

I know a lot of people are pissed about what's going on...but this^^^^^^^ stuff coming from a bunch of shooters would definitely result in me never wanting to RO again. One bad apple ruins it for everyone.

[Jayohee]

I am USPSA for life, good thing there isn't some dope that makes us shoot straight, like viagra for the arms....

Beta-blockers? Lol

[glockified]

It will be really interesting to see what the board of directors does. This is a very high profile case with many people watching....

[A-shot]

I am USPSA for life, good thing there isn't some dope that makes us shoot straight, like viagra for the arms....

Beta-blockers? Lol

People use it as a muscle relaxant or? I come from pro paintball, so cheating is a way of life. Shoot a kid in the face, there is a chance he will run the tape and shoot everyone in the back before the ref can move. Sometimes the refs stand still....I build my house on honesty, integrity, and making sure everything is fair and cool. Everything is usually awful at the highest levels, and it is best to truly not know who your heroes really are...

Edited June 19, 2014 by A-shot

[JFlowers]

"I Highly recommend that the final split is shown and called out, and required that it is done for Major Matches. Most all, except the most antiquated timers in use show the split time on the screen."

The Pact Club Timer and the CE Pocket Pro are probably the most common timers in USPSA (and just about any other shooting sport). Neither show the last split. The only timer I know of that does is the newer CED and probably other new timers. So showing the last split is not going to be a workable change. I do think showing the time to the scorekeeper at the very least should be the standard. The shooter if they want to see it.

The reason RO and CRO classes are so scarce and scattered is that they are asked for by clubs. This means someone has to want to hold the class. I would rather see USPSA start mandating a class as part of the AREA matches. That way a RO or CRO (I would alternate) class is being held in any shooters region at least once a year. Take the Class Day one, RO for a grade on RO Day (and shoot of course), work a stage as a stage hand during the match.

As for the education, I think we need to go beyond just the current material. Rather than a John A interpretation posted somewhere, start posting mini-classes and require all ROs to take say 2 a year. If they are 30 minute videos I don't see that as asking much. For example a 30 minute video explaining and discussing Significant Advantage.

[deacon12224]

If someone is so blatant as to actually mess with the times shown on the timer, there is no way of knowing how the targets were actually scored. If you want to cheat as an RO, there are a number of ways to do it. Scoring targets, especially behind a shooter, has all sorts of possibities for cheating. That is one of the reasons that as a CRO, I will almost never allow scoring behind on any stage that I run.

Truth be told, we have to rely on integrity in our staff to some degree no matter what rule changes or procedures may come out of this. Dishonest people will always find a way to cheat. Cheating by officials in all sports has probably been going on since the first caveman decided to have a woman throwing contest. (I am not saying the people involved here are dishonest or cavemen since we don't have a ruling from NROI yet)

[motosapiens]

Pro paintball?

i lol'd.

[A-shot]

Yeah, when the first place is over $10k, yes people will do they can to win it. I know it's dead now. I am part of the reason that when you type in the two words "paintball is", google auto- completes, "paintball is dead". I made millions selling the game (LMFAO!) in my time when it was hot. I can promise you, this game isn't ready for prime time with an article like that, people cheat, and the games crumble. Let's not talk about how much I made from airsoft toys, great profit margins for the wannabes...

Edited June 19, 2014 by A-shot

[deerassassin22]

^^^that's got to be true especially with airsoft

[Nimitz]

Those "big board" timers were used at the US Steel Nationals this year and seemed to work well. After a run the RO would verify that the time on the big display matched what he was seeing on his CED and then gave a head nod to the scorekeeper who was looking at the big display and would record the score ...they were positioned in such a way that the shooter couldn't see them but the shooter could tell the RO he wanted to know his run times and they would be called out ... It was pretty cool ...

[Chills1994]

Cheating in USPSA has been going on since I started. I could tell you many other stories like this, even on the local level for nothing but placement on results.

I guess I am old school. When a man has no honor, integrity or his word doesn't count, then he has nothing.

A'yup!

Well, look on the bright side, at least with this guy RO'ing everbody on the squad, he couldn't sneak a squib round into somebody's ammo supply.

[deerassassin22]

I think some people have brought a lot of points up about RO training that would make a good email/letter to NROI. I would be willing to shotgun that effort in my spare time. I do think training must be continous regardless of your skill level nobody is perfect. Here are some ideas that people have brought up I think are good.

Jamiethesquid

^^^^ Your message is way to long to Quote"

1. I agree videos would be nice. I'm not saying for all training but refreshers etc... Complicated scoring issues stuff like that would be nice I would sit and watch them just form more knowledge about the subject.

2. I would be okay with going to live refresher training every few years for a small fee. (As long as the Fee went to NROI not to a club) this would help RO's in the future

3. I think area match should host an NROI RO seminar.

4. I wouldn't mine assisting a class I'm no expert but I can help somehow I'm sure.

Edited June 20, 2014 by deerassassin22

[apowers1214]

 

I agree with you on the additional time JFlowers. I also agree with the professional level increase for RO staff. I know when I played paintball they way around this was the crews working the events didn't play in them. I think the videos would be a great learning tool.

 

I do not support the RO's not Playing if they are working, The RO position is voluntary. I am an RO, I volunteer, I take no pay for this, I show up with the very first people, to set up, register, talk to new shooters, run a squad in 100 deg heat and -20 deg cold. Do the safety briefs. Have a safe and fun shooting experience, Stay till dark to breakdown and store all the materials, and I enjoy every minute of it. I agree that "this person" has brought great shame to himself and much can be done to improve the sport.

However, There are a very small group of people dedicated to running this sport, month after month around the country, and if we don't get to play, no body gets to play!!

I absolutely and emphatically agree that more training and continuing training is necessary. I hate to compare this to IDPA, but here goes. I was an IDPA S.O. also, I say WAS, because I have chosen to concentrate on USPSA exclusively, and haven's shot IDPA in 2-3 years. One thing that IDPA had right was that if, you wanted to be an SO, you would Roger up, the Club MD would set a date and time and would hold a Training Class, Class Passed, Paperwork Submitted, SO Card came in the Mail.

I have been shooting USPSA, since 2007 as a non-member, I RO'd local Matches as a non-qualified RO, I became a member 2/29/12 and finally found a seat in an RO class 6/10/13. Why is this? why so few NROI classes? Why so Geographically spread out, for often a large fee charged. I was "Lucky", I attended the class for free because it was paid for by SIG Sauer Academy in conjunction with the 2013 Area 7 match. The class was Taught by John Amidon, a great instructor and a wealth of knowledge, BUT!! Is all of that really necessary.

Here is my proposal, and I would gladly talk to anyone at HQ about this.

1. Establish a official RO, CRO, MD training program, maybe one exists already within NROI, I have a workbook of sorts from my RO class, great. Now take that approved curriculum, and publish it on the web for all members to see. Chapter 1, record a You Tube video, do a Powerpoint presentation something, whatever it takes, get the material out there, embed in the training material, pertinent rule changes, BoD rulings, clarifications of rules, a text document with all the "Inside NROI" columns from Front Sight. Do this for every single chapter and section in the rule book.

If a shooter is interested in becoming an RO, they should be able to go onto the USPSA site, Log in, go through all the material with explanations, take an open book practice test, print out his completed test, everything. Make this a requirement to get your RO cert, before attending a class.

2. This brings me to my second point, Looking at the USPSA site under the NROI tab for the entire 2014 listing there is only ONE RO class in New England for 2014, what does that seat 20-30 students? So we have members through out Area 7 that would love to take the class, but...if they can't make it to that class they will have to wait another year or travel a very long distance. The next option would be to travel to North Carolina or Ohio. Not feasible for very many.

Solution: Make more RO instructors. We have people throughout the country that have been RO'ing for years, CRO's, Match Directors, Range Masters, Masters and Grand Masters. Get them certified to put on more classes. If we establish an online training system, the class would mostly be a review, a bit of Discussion and Clarification, a Range portion with a bit of shooting and then the normal online open book test. Come on!! if we are not having at least 5-10 classes a year in each of the 8 Areas we are severely limiting our pool of staff. No wonder we can't scare up the help and people burn out.

3. Do all of the above, for all of the levels of NROI certification, I am an RO, I really want to become a CRO, and a MD, and who knows someday I might want to run for a Sectional or Area position. Back to the NROI tab. There are 4 CRO classes listed, I live in Maine, the classes are in Alaska, Nevada, Arizona, and Georgia this year, Which one do you think I will be able to make it to. You Guessed it!! None!! Unacceptable.

I love Shooting USPSA matches, I probably like working them a little bit better than that, I am a volunteer by nature, I served in the military, I am a natural teacher and instructor. I would love to see the sport grow, more clubs, more shooters, more matches.

Give us the tools to succeed!!

We are making great strides in the technology realm, Practiscore has made scoring much faster and less time consuming, but it is Garbage in and Garbage out if we are not entering scores correctly. There is no explanation for the recent events, it makes me a little sick to think about the ramifications going forward and for the people this has allegedly helped and hurt.

Make an immediate rule that the RO will show the timer display to the Shooter and to the Score Keeper after the "Range is Clear" is called out.

This has a couple implications. First, the shooter will see the last split, the final time and make sure that it checks out, the score keeper will see it and should repeat it back then enter it. The score keeper is the second RO on the stage, he is looking for foot faults, he is backing up the RO, he or she should be watching for extra shots, failure to engage, correct procedure followed, foot faults. The primary RO is right on the shooters heels watching for all these things, and acting as the primary safety observer, I am watching the gun, the trigger finger, the muzzle, the finger in the trigger guard while moving, I may not always be able to do all that and count the number of shots fired before a mandatory reload or whether the target was actually engaged or if there were 2 misses. That means that even at the local matches and especially at the Major matches, the Score Keeper needs to be proceeding down range with the Shooter and RO and assisting, not standing in the shade relaxing.

I Highly recommend that the final split is shown and called out, and required that it is done for Major Matches. Most all, except the most antiquated timers in use show the split time on the screen. Next, put out some guidance on how to properly set up the timer for use. At a local match I have seen some real relics for timers, and many of us, my self included bring our own timers for use on the range. For major matches, that really may no longer be acceptable. We play a game where matches are won and classifications are earned by fractions of a second and single points down on a target.

My timer has always to my knowledge picked up all the shots fired in a course, it has a sensitivity adjustment that I have never messed with. I am close enough to the shooter that the Sound Pressure Level of the shot being fired registers on the timer. Some have suggested that merely tapping the timer or being to close for the unload and show clear and the sound of the slide or hammer dropping will register on the timer. I don't think that is the case. In order to test my timer I either have to smack the microphone very hard or yell bang into it. Our shooting bays are usually very close together and if the guy in the next bay blasting away with his open gun, loud enough to require hearing protection in my bay is not tripping my timer then your hammer dropping one inch is sure not going to do it. That is of course as long as your timer has not been set to Air Soft sensitivity levels from your last practice session. The club should approve the use of certain makes and models of timers for official match use, they should have a laminated sheet that tells exactly how to set the timer up for match use, how to set the delay to instant, what sensitivity level to use, how to review the data etc.

For a major match those timers should be taken to the chrono stage, a qualified person should verify that the timer is charged, set up correctly, and hell why not line them up on a table and fire a couple of live rounds over them to verify they work. Nothing worse than having to reshoot a shooter, or have to reshoot as a shooter because the darn timer is not working or picking up other shots. Then slap a Sticker on it that tells everyone that it has been checked and the thing should work. I am not going to be impressed when I go to a major match and I have an RO running me with a watch type timer. Nothing against the timer, but they are too new, no one understands them and I don't want to trust my match to some new toy that belongs to the RO personally and has an inertia sensor that is designed to reject shots if not worn on the shooters wrist. I better have faith that the RO knows how to operate it, the timer is set up correctly and that Air Soft mode is off and the Inertia sensor is not used.

So take it with a grain of salt, dismiss my thoughts all together, comment back and give me your thoughts. Rant mode OFF!

I was just simply stating what my experience was in my previous sport. That didn't work very well for paintball. I actually think there will be a decrease in staff if that were the case.

[alma]

TLDR