2014 Nationals - Back to Combined?

[juan]

for those that did not come because of location, thank you, my son was able to walk on and shoot some awesome stages with me.

this range is really nice. close to town and the staff was amazing.

THANK YOU STAFF

[wgnoyes]

Move it back to Vegas and leave the format alone; you'll get your 400+ back.

Bill, you are comparing 246 competitors in a single-division match this year with 400+ competitors in 3-division match in 2012.

The numbers for Limited division only:

2013 - 246 competitors

2012 - 261 competitor

I can't find numbers for other divisions yet, but for Limited it was only 20 people difference, which could be easily explained by the shortage of ammo and many other factors.

Maybe. Just my opinion. How many are signed up for the other one?

[mikeg1005]

Move it back to Vegas and leave the format alone; you'll get your 400+ back.

Bill, you are comparing 246 competitors in a single-division match this year with 400+ competitors in 3-division match in 2012.

The numbers for Limited division only:

2013 - 246 competitors

2012 - 261 competitor

I can't find numbers for other divisions yet, but for Limited it was only 20 people difference, which could be easily explained by the shortage of ammo and many other factors.

Maybe. Just my opinion. How many are signed up for the other one?

95 in L-10.

261 in Open.

The number of shooters really isn't that much different... I also don't think that location changed much for people. You had to get a car in Vegas to shoot the match... the only difference is that you either flew into St. George instead of Vegas, or you drove the 2 hour trip from Vegas to the range.

[Strick]

As far as the Lim match not being full this year....

The top 17 Competitors were within less then 10% of winning. To me that is amazing. This is the deepest field I have ever seen. The competition at this match was top notch. I wish we could have given Nils a 6 figure check though.

My question about the turn out is see what the capacity of the range is. Put 4 Nationals on in the same match and how does that limit the total number of shooters per division. Using a little math based on the way they are running things there this year and if all divisions would be represented equally, that is less than 200 per division.

To be honest it seems like they are asking a lot of the shooters because they don't have the organization ability to run separate matches. A better idea would be to ask for more help.

[old506]

It may not limit the competitors but it will water down the competition. The best shooters in the country will be spread out in other divisions and won't be going head to head. If true competition is what you want then you want the best shooting against the best. We had our first peak at this during Revo Nats with TGO and Jerry going at it for the first time against each (that I know of) other. In the past there was no reason for TGO to pick up a wheel gun. To me anyway, Nils win this year has to be one of the best nats wins ever when you consider the depth of the competition and just how close the race was.

If you just want 400 people coming out and rubbing shoulders together and catching up with how the family is doing, then lump them all together and have a BBQ at the end of the week.

[jriera]

As someone that has organized and run one of those big 'combined' matches (1992 Europeans, 30+ stages, 600+ shooters) and participated in several World Shoots, many Europeans and other large ipsc matches all over the world, after reading most of the comments I have to say that ...

Dammed if you do, dammed if you don't ...

Not many venues will accommodate that match (Las Vegas, Frank Garcia range in Fl, maybe St George), logistics are a nightmare, preparation is even worse. I know that I spend 11 months getting that match ready for not putting a single round down range in competition. I don't envy the team that will put that match together, whomever maybe will have my full support.

[Strick]

I think it would better to have a 6 day, 16-20 stage match. You would shoot the match in 2 days and that way you could shoot a second or even 3rd division. More competition, a lot more shooters, and less of a burden on shooters.

[JakeMartens]

So if you are not able to 5+ days in the desert next year there is going to be another option

(shameless self promotion ahead)

The Indiana USPSA Championship is going to be Sept 12-14th, 2014

in Sellersburg, IN (15 minutes north of Louisville, KY, which has lots to do)

We are thinking 18 stages over a two day format (the range has 15 bays, so a 7/8 split, we will have the 1 day option on Friday and Saturday for 1 or 2 squads as well) for less than half of the the Nationals entry fee will be ($125ish???)

Already working on stages now, pulled up old nationals and area stages and using as ideas and tweeking them to fit the bays (and some of these bays at silver creek are 55 yard deep!!)

And beside where else are you going to get a stage named

[mikeg1005]

I think it would better to have a 6 day, 16-20 stage match. You would shoot the match in 2 days and that way you could shoot a second or even 3rd division. More competition, a lot more shooters, and less of a burden on shooters.

Might as well keep back to back format. Lim/Pro, Open/L-10.

[Strick]

I think it would better to have a 6 day, 16-20 stage match. You would shoot the match in 2 days and that way you could shoot a second or even 3rd division. More competition, a lot more shooters, and less of a burden on shooters.

Might as well keep back to back format. Lim/Pro, Open/L-10.

My idea would be less time the RO's would have to be there. All the Nationals would be done in 6 days not just half of them in 4.

[JakeMartens]

That is what they do now three days for each however it is split with a day break between for staff and change up the stages

[beltjones]

It may not limit the competitors but it will water down the competition. The best shooters in the country will be spread out in other divisions and won't be going head to head. If true competition is what you want then you want the best shooting against the best. We had our first peak at this during Revo Nats with TGO and Jerry going at it for the first time against each (that I know of) other. In the past there was no reason for TGO to pick up a wheel gun. To me anyway, Nils win this year has to be one of the best nats wins ever when you consider the depth of the competition and just how close the race was.

If you just want 400 people coming out and rubbing shoulders together and catching up with how the family is doing, then lump them all together and have a BBQ at the end of the week.

You have repeated this a few times, and to me it doesn't make sense. So Production isn't a valid championship unless the Limited guys shoot the match? Or is the Limited Championship this year not valid because Max didn't shoot it? Or how about this: Any division of any match where Eric Graufel doesn't compete is a sham because the best in the world wasn't there to legitimize it.

No, the way it works is, shooters sign up for the division they want to shoot, conceivably the one they think they have the best shot at winning. The best Limited shooters will compete against the best Limited shooters, and so on and so forth. That's not watering down, that's allowing shooters to self-select where their strengths best match the shooting challenge.

Now, if you wanted to argue that finishing 16th in this year's Limited match is more impressive than finishing 16th in years past, I would agree with that. But that doesn't mean that Nils's first championship is any less valid than his most recent one, nor will it be for whomever wins next year.

[mikeg1005]

I think it would better to have a 6 day, 16-20 stage match. You would shoot the match in 2 days and that way you could shoot a second or even 3rd division. More competition, a lot more shooters, and less of a burden on shooters.

Might as well keep back to back format. Lim/Pro, Open/L-10.

My idea would be less time the RO's would have to be there. All the Nationals would be done in 6 days not just half of them in 4.

Your idea would require more work from the ROs.

[kevin c]

5 days shooting, 7 nights in a hotel, meals........I am thinking that is going to be a high price for a lot of shooters.

I think it will be too expensive for a lot of shooters. This match format will be too much for the normal "working man" shooter. It would be awesome to shoot a 30 stage world shoot type match but I think its just crossing the reality line for all but the top shooters in the sport.

Ive shot each of the past six back-to-back nats. If you don't mind cooking your own meals in a short term rental, it's not too bad. And you get to shoot 40 odd stages over the week.

[Strick]

I think it would better to have a 6 day, 16-20 stage match. You would shoot the match in 2 days and that way you could shoot a second or even 3rd division. More competition, a lot more shooters, and less of a burden on shooters.

Might as well keep back to back format. Lim/Pro, Open/L-10.

My idea would be less time the RO's would have to be there. All the Nationals would be done in 6 days not just half of them in 4.

Your idea would require more work from the ROs.

It would be one more day of RO'ing but less time overall.

[whitedog]

Never having shot a national, but want to, how about M-F. Same stages all divisions. Just like an area match. If yer an open shooter, shoot it as such. 6 stages per day, 5 days. Awards fri night, fly out sat. Requires a week vacation.

Probably a bazillion reasons this wont work, but it seems logical to me. If yer going to combine it all that is.

[old506]

It wouldn't be a "sham" if Grauffel isn't there because it's a National Championship. They will get a crack at him at the world shoot.

I didn't mean to imply (and didn't think I did) that Nils' last championship was any less of a championship. I did say that this year's has to one of the most impressive (possibly ever) wins as the caliber and closeness of the competition impressed me.

Maybe I misunderstand how Nationals works (or is supposed to)? I thought that a slot to Nationals was supposed to be earned, not signed up for?

I think you identified one of the problems with having a combined Nationals. "shooters sign up for the division they want to shoot, conceivably the one they think they have the best shot at winning" Doing it that way, allowing the competitor to decide, may not give us the best competition, it may give the competitor the best chance to win but may not give us the best shooter.

If the point of Nationals is to find the best practical shooter in the country, I think we need to focus and base every decision on getting the best shooters together and providing the best competition to let them go head to head.

It may not limit the competitors but it will water down the competition. The best shooters in the country will be spread out in other divisions and won't be going head to head. If true competition is what you want then you want the best shooting against the best. We had our first peak at this during Revo Nats with TGO and Jerry going at it for the first time against each (that I know of) other. In the past there was no reason for TGO to pick up a wheel gun. To me anyway, Nils win this year has to be one of the best nats wins ever when you consider the depth of the competition and just how close the race was.

If you just want 400 people coming out and rubbing shoulders together and catching up with how the family is doing, then lump them all together and have a BBQ at the end of the week.

You have repeated this a few times, and to me it doesn't make sense. So Production isn't a valid championship unless the Limited guys shoot the match? Or is the Limited Championship this year not valid because Max didn't shoot it? Or how about this: Any division of any match where Eric Graufel doesn't compete is a sham because the best in the world wasn't there to legitimize it.

No, the way it works is, shooters sign up for the division they want to shoot, conceivably the one they think they have the best shot at winning. The best Limited shooters will compete against the best Limited shooters, and so on and so forth. That's not watering down, that's allowing shooters to self-select where their strengths best match the shooting challenge.

Now, if you wanted to argue that finishing 16th in this year's Limited match is more impressive than finishing 16th in years past, I would agree with that. But that doesn't mean that Nils's first championship is any less valid than his most recent one, nor will it be for whomever wins next year.

[jrbet83]

If you have a combined National Championship and Ben wins production, Nils wins Limited, TGO wins Lim 10 and Max wins Open and neither faced each other, do you really have a National Championship at all?

This has to be the worst analogy. Ben only shoots production and Max only shoots open anyways, so what's changed. They wouldn't, and didn't compete versus tgo and nils anyways.

Although it looks good on paper having all the big names competing together, most the big names that are shooting outside their normal division aren't truly in the hunt for victory. So to say that those guys not shooting in that division takes away from the winner, holds no merit. There's only a couple guys that can shoot the three different platform's and truly contend for a victory in all three. Look at this year's limited results. The top ten are all limited shooters. Seeing the production and open super squadders in the results is cool too see, but if they weren't there, would it have taken away from nils win? So when it comes down to it, all we're going to miss out on, is seeing sevigny and tgo in both production and limited and having the limited shooters the ability to compete in two limited nationals (limited and l10). Wouldn't really considered that watered down.

[motosapiens]

Well, let's see. Both matches last year were over 420 competitors each, 18 stages, and you had production rolled into one of them. In Vegas.

This year, 22 stages, and 246 competitors for the first match. Oh, and in St. George, Utah.

More stages, same format, similar entry fee, different location, gets you almost 180 less competitors.

Seems like the major difference between last year and this year is the location. I know I had people here who chose not to go because of the location. I've never really been a fan of the "but there's nothing to DO there" mentality when it comes to choosing a match location, but I guess there's something to it. Moved it out of Vegas to Utah, lose 180 competitors.

Move it back to Vegas and leave the format alone; you'll get your 400+ back.

I disagree. I think the major difference was that production was somewhere else. If you look at the numbers for the open/l10 match, they are similar to vegas.

IMHO, st george is a MUCH better location. The range is better, and the town is easier to get around, plus they have a couple of practice bays where you can do a little live-fire practice if you want. Also st george has lots to do. It's a resort area that is very close to national parks, and has world-class mountain biking, golf, decent restaurants, etc... Most importantly, the host club has incredible community support and is chock-full of AWESOME human beings.

[JakeMartens]

Not been to the range in St George, but I can tell that the range in Vegas sucks. I worked the first match last year and shot the second one. The rocks, the caters the, the range surface sucked and that was even on the half of the bays that they really worked on.

Working one and shooting one was not alot of fun either

We arrived in Vegas on a Friday, had meetings at the range on Saturday, finished the set up of the stages on Saturday, and ran shooters from 8am-7pm Sunday, Monday and Tuesday, with almost no break.

Took Wednesday off (many went to the CRO clinic, I drank while in the hot tub instead)

Then went and shot Thursday, Friday, Saturday, got done with awards very late Saturday and flew home on Sunday, some stayed to help tear down.

So it was 10 days to work and shoot the nationals.

If I was a competitor shooting both it would have been at least 9 days, but shooting 2 divisions ($500 in entry fees)

Next year they will have 1 division to shoot (1 entry fee)

and 8 days of travel and staying time for most competitors

Staff will probably be 9 days

It is one less day, but only 1 division

1 entry fee compared to two

it will be shorter for staff, but no 1 day break in between, which was much needed and welcomed

Stand alone Nationals while a great idea and look great on paper are too much of a drain on resources, man power and then the expense

If a shooters were to shoot

Single Stack ($200)

Revolver ($200)

Limited ($250)

Open ($250)

Production ($250)

=$1150 in entry fees

Hotels (minimum stays at $100)

SS/Rev = 3 days ($300)

Limited = 5 days ($500)

Open = 5 days ($500)

Production = 5 days ($500)

=$1900 in hotels

you are at $3050

throw in $40 a day on meals = $640

You are sitting at $3690

and that doesn't include travel cost

Figure 4 different locations, $500 a pop if you fly

add in another $2000 and round up because you are always going to spend a little more on each trip and call it

$6000 to shoot 5 Nationals

Maybe thinking that all the top shooters are going to do this is a little wishful thinking

And it appears that while some people have ideas on what they think Nationals should be they have never shot one or plan on shooting one but have great ideas on what they think it should be.

The first thing they should try is helping put on a local match and see what is involved before offering opinions on things they have no back ground on.

Edited September 28, 2013 by JakeMartens

[pskys2]

With the World Shoot being held in October 2014 in the USA it makes sense on several levels. A National Combined USPSA Championships will more closely prepare competitors for the World Shoot. I would think there would be less of a chance of many competitors wanting to run multiple platforms, with a World Shoot in the mix many will want to choose a platform and stick with it. It lessens the RO work load, as I'm sure a large portion will be working both. There are only so many willing to put in the grueling work of being Range Officers, let alone at the National/World levels.

More than likely this is a 1 year thing and watching Phil's management style would lead one to believe 2015 will have many championship matches.

FWIW, at least we are hearing that the particulars are set before the beginning of the season.

[shootingchef]

In my mind, trying to prepare 80 people to shoot a single match, at the expense of 400+ is bit selfish. US only got 86+/- slots for the WS. with 40 of those going to the "teams" that leave a it a bit lacking for others who might want to participate. Other than the honor of hosting the WS, the match does nothing for most of us.

I get the logistics of putting on large matches, been there, done that. I do like the matches being spread out and accessable to more people. My wish is that the Nationals were in the summer time so that I could shoot them.

[Nimitz]

I've been following this thread for a while and I must say that I think a lot of you are missing the main point here. Do you honestly think Phil and his staff sit around and try to come up with ways to limit participation of the 'rank and file'? It's simply (and there's nothing simple about it) a matter of staffing and logistics.

If you've never been involved in putting on an event like the Nationals you have literally no concept of the effort involved. Now try to do 5 separate ones plus keep the organization running doing its regular business -basically impossible. While it would be nice to have separate events so that the top shooters can compete against each other in every event it certainly doesn't diminish the accomplishments of whoever wins each match.

[Sandbagger123]

I don't know if this helps or not, but DS is not the only range these days in Vegas that does USPSA. Seems like this could be an option

http://www.deserthillsshootingclub.com/

[JakeMartens]

I don't know if this helps or not, but DS is not the only range these days in Vegas that does USPSA. Seems like this could be an option

http://www.deserthillsshootingclub.com/

looks like a nice place, and a couple or two or a dozen pistol bays short