2014 Nationals - Back to Combined?

[Strick]

Was the Limited nationals full this year? What is the max capacity for the range?

[The Antichrome]

At the moment I less concerned about a match a year from now than I am about getting info for a National match that is happening in few weeks.

This

No kidding. Less than 3 weeks away, and virtually no pertinent info...

I personally contacted the AMD (knowing that Phil was busy) and he didnt have the info yet either...

Edited September 27, 2013 by The Antichrome

[Caspian_45]

_{As Jake has pointed, a turn key match works very well. We have been doing that for the SSC/SSN for years. We built it and fix anything they don't like before the staff shoots. I personally would rather they run the Revo match first. That way any staff wanting to shoot Revo can. Just keep the stages the same for both matches.}

_{As for the 2014 combined Nationals, I have always thought that should be the way to run it. Less travel and extra expenses for the staff and USPSA crew. pick your gun and run it. Watered down competition.......maybe, but I think you will find tough competition is all divisions. I say they need at least 30 stages to make it worth going to though. USPSA Nationals should rival any WS. Also I'd hope they figure a way to slot it for at least 700 competitors. Staff would need 2 days to shoot the match too.}

[BritinUSA]

I pitched the idea of a staff pre-match to John Amidon & Phil Strader today. We'll see what happens.

[Caspian_45]

Cool!!!!!!!!!!!!! Thanks Paul!!!!

[guns_and_labs]

Was the Limited nationals full this year? What is the max capacity for the range?

Supposedly it was not full, no where near.

[Airic]

5 days shooting, 7 nights in a hotel, meals........I am thinking that is going to be a high price for a lot of shooters.

I think it will be too expensive for a lot of shooters. This match format will be too much for the normal "working man" shooter. It would be awesome to shoot a 30 stage world shoot type match but I think its just crossing the reality line for all but the top shooters in the sport.

[Caspian_45]

246 listed competitors. I'd say at least 125 short.

[Jerome]

Although the Limited National's turn out was top heavy with a lot of great shooters, the total number of shooters was disappointing. A lot of empty squads especially on the PM/AM/PM side. Would have liked to see many more Limited shooters for the great stages they had.

[juan]

Although the Limited National's turn out was top heavy with a lot of great shooters, the total number of shooters was disappointing. A lot of empty squads especially on the PM/AM/PM side. Would have liked to see many more Limited shooters for the great stages they had.

this was a awesome match at a awesome range. I would vote for st george every year.

[Nik Habicht]

I am admittedly a little "nationals ignorant" but am I to understand that in 2013 you have the option to shoot both limited and open, (and production) and in 2014 you will have to choose between the three? If that is the case then I am against the change. If you can get a slot into all three, then you should be able to compete in all three.

Oh, and keep Eric Grauffel out. We don't need him coming over here and beating us in EVERY division.

While I get that sentiment, the last match to have the all the divisions under one roof was at Barry in 2004, I think. It was a blast shooting a match that large with that many people and that many stages over five days......

I'd rather shoot one thirty stage match, than 3 18 stage matches, any year.....

[mikeg1005]

What state is St. George in, I'm geographically challenged

Utah. About an hour from Las Vegas.

My Versa clearly didn't come with the 1.21 gigawatts necessary to travel 140 mi in an hour.

[mikeg1005]

5 days shooting, 7 nights in a hotel, meals........I am thinking that is going to be a high price for a lot of shooters.

I think it will be too expensive for a lot of shooters. This match format will be too much for the normal "working man" shooter. It would be awesome to shoot a 30 stage world shoot type match but I think its just crossing the reality line for all but the top shooters in the sport.

It wouldn't really require much more commitment... you would add on 1 more vacation day to the current nationals. This year people flied in on Sunday afternoon, left Thursday morning.. The only thing that would change would be people having to take Friday off, flying back on Saturday. I'm pretty sure if the normal working man can take of M-Th.... he can probably add Friday... if he didn't so already.

[Thomas H]

30 stages sounds like a ton of fun. And yet...

I can't take an entire week off (literally cannot---it isn't allowed, and I'm already stretching the rules of my job taking off three days in a row for Nats now), and neither can a lot of other people. As people have said, not only do you have to take a week off, but in addition to plane tickets you now have about 7 days in a hotel, food, etc---that's going to make it cost-prohibitive for a significant number of people who would normally go.

mikeg1005, for the last three years I've been able to make it to Nats with just taking three days off work. If Nats next year is the 21st-27th, then I'd have to take five days off work, plus it would take part of two weekends. This is significantly more than previous years.

If they are trying to limit Nationals to just the people who are professional shooters or independently wealthy or who devote everything they have to their hobby of shooting---this is how to do it. I'm betting that the total number of shooters for Nats next year is going to be significantly (catastrophically?) lower than the total number of people this year (which makes sense, as people can shoot multiple Nats this year) but also significantly lower than the total number of people from previous years when it was also a combined situation.

Hope people have fun, I certainly won't be able to be there. Neither will a lot of other people.

[mikeg1005]

mikeg1005, for the last three years I've been able to make it to Nats with just taking three days off work. If Nats next year is the 21st-27th, then I'd have to take five days off work, plus it would take part of two weekends. This is significantly more than previous years.

Just for the record... I agree 100% with you.. just pointing out it isn't that much more if someone stays for awards and comes early to walk stages.

Personally... I would rather see 22-30 stages shot in 2-3 days. I REALLY hate shooting 1/2 a day and then stopping. I would rather have 2-3 days of 10-12 stages each... and judging by the turn out this year (tons of ghost squads) you could condense the squads and eliminate the morning/afternoon starts.

I agree, turn out will be significantly lower... I talked to many people this year who were staying for fun for L-10/Open, or using Limited as a warm up. I don't see a match that requires more commitment and doesn't allow for multiple entries to bring in more shooters.

[B_Seehawer]

Clearly, they are catering to full sponsored shooters and ignoring the "backbone" of USPSA.

[whitedog]

Sounds like a $2K trip easy......I had intended to try and make it. Not likely now. The vast majority of USPSA is the normal working man, how many can do this?

[sperman]

30 stages sounds like a ton of fun. And yet...

I can't take an entire week off (literally cannot---it isn't allowed, and I'm already stretching the rules of my job taking off three days in a row for Nats now), and neither can a lot of other people. As people have said, not only do you have to take a week off, but in addition to plane tickets you now have about 7 days in a hotel, food, etc---that's going to make it cost-prohibitive for a significant number of people who would normally go.

I love the concept, but like you, I cannot take that many days off in a row, nor be away from home for that many days.

Personally... I would rather see 22-30 stages shot in 2-3 days. I REALLY hate shooting 1/2 a day and then stopping. I would rather have 2-3 days of 10-12 stages each...

I would love to see a squadding option to shoot the whole match in 2.5 days. Just setup 1 squad for the first 2.5 days, and another squad for the 2nd. If it doesn't fill up, then you have your answer. I know I won't be at my best cramming all that shooting into 2.5 days, but if the only other option is to shoot 1/2 day for 5 days in a row, I won't attend the match at all.

Although the Limited National's turn out was top heavy with a lot of great shooters, the total number of shooters was disappointing. A lot of empty squads especially on the PM/AM/PM side. Would have liked to see many more Limited shooters for the great stages they had.

I know several shooters who have attended the B2B match for several years in a row. Since they are primarily production shooters, they couldn't justify going to Utah for 1 match (or both matches) and then going to Tulsa a few weeks later to shoot the Production match. They chose to shoot the Production Nationals and Skip the B2B match. This may be part of the reason for the lower turnout.

[mikeg1005]

Personally... I would rather see 22-30 stages shot in 2-3 days. I REALLY hate shooting 1/2 a day and then stopping. I would rather have 2-3 days of 10-12 stages each...

I would love to see a squadding option to shoot the whole match in 2.5 days. Just setup 1 squad for the first 2.5 days, and another squad for the 2nd. If it doesn't fill up, then you have your answer. I know I won't be at my best cramming all that shooting into 2.5 days, but if the only other option is to shoot 1/2 day for 5 days in a row, I won't attend the match at all.

10-12 stages, like the ones at National these year would not be hard at all to accomplish in one day... and the weather is great this time of year.

We were doing (6) 28-32 rounders and finishing before 1pm. With how well the staff and match planning is/was this year... I have full faith that they could put on a day long match and not create any back ups anywhere.

[Thomas H]

mikeg1005, for the last three years I've been able to make it to Nats with just taking three days off work. If Nats next year is the 21st-27th, then I'd have to take five days off work, plus it would take part of two weekends. This is significantly more than previous years.

Just for the record... I agree 100% with you.. just pointing out it isn't that much more if someone stays for awards and comes early to walk stages.

I already stay for awards (and leave the next day) and come early to walk stages. The way Production Nats has been for the last three years, I could always do that---get there early the day before shooting, walk the stages, register, then shoot for three days, stay for awards, and fly home the next day. Yes, it was a total of five days, but the weekend was part of it, so it worked out.

Next year, though? Five days of shooting, PLUS the day before and after--7 days (necessary for travel) instead of five. Just going to be significantly different.

Personally... I would rather see 22-30 stages shot in 2-3 days. I REALLY hate shooting 1/2 a day and then stopping. I would rather have 2-3 days of 10-12 stages each... and judging by the turn out this year (tons of ghost squads) you could condense the squads and eliminate the morning/afternoon starts.

Indeed. Half-days are okay---but certainly aren't necessary. 8-10 stages a day for three days? Long, tiring---and tons of fun.

[wgnoyes]

Well, let's see. Both matches last year were over 420 competitors each, 18 stages, and you had production rolled into one of them. In Vegas.

This year, 22 stages, and 246 competitors for the first match. Oh, and in St. George, Utah.

More stages, same format, similar entry fee, different location, gets you almost 180 less competitors.

Seems like the major difference between last year and this year is the location. I know I had people here who chose not to go because of the location. I've never really been a fan of the "but there's nothing to DO there" mentality when it comes to choosing a match location, but I guess there's something to it. Moved it out of Vegas to Utah, lose 180 competitors.

Move it back to Vegas and leave the format alone; you'll get your 400+ back.

[old506]

I think it comes down to what USPSA wants a National Championship to be. Do you want an end of the year get together where you can see old buddies that you only see once a year, have a short day of shooting where you slap each other on the back and catch a beer after a half day of shooting, then do it over again tomorrow? Or, do you want to see the best compete against the best.

We don't need a glorified club match with watered down competition. I want to see TGO go up against Max. I want to see Ben shoot against TGO, and Nils, etc.

If you have a combined National Championship and Ben wins production, Nils wins Limited, TGO wins Lim 10 and Max wins Open and neither faced each other, do you really have a National Championship at all?

Edited September 27, 2013 by old506

[DWFAN]

Well, let's see. Both matches last year were over 420 competitors each, 18 stages, and you had production rolled into one of them. In Vegas.

This year, 22 stages, and 246 competitors for the first match. Oh, and in St. George, Utah.

More stages, same format, similar entry fee, different location, gets you almost 180 less competitors.

Seems like the major difference between last year and this year is the location. I know I had people here who chose not to go because of the location. I've never really been a fan of the "but there's nothing to DO there" mentality when it comes to choosing a match location, but I guess there's something to it. Moved it out of Vegas to Utah, lose 180 competitors.

Move it back to Vegas and leave the format alone; you'll get your 400+ back.

You didnt just move the match and lose 180 competitors. You took away a huge division.

2013 Limited - 246

2012 Limited - 261

2013 Open - 261

2012 Open - 307

Looking division by division, it's not that much difference. I would say that some are saving for the trip to Tulsa and that St. George may not have been the sole reason for decrease in attendance.

[old506]

As far as the Lim match not being full this year....

The top 17 Competitors were within less then 10% of winning. To me that is amazing. This is the deepest field I have ever seen. The competition at this match was top notch. I wish we could have given Nils a 6 figure check though.

[euxx]

Move it back to Vegas and leave the format alone; you'll get your 400+ back.

Bill, you are comparing 246 competitors in a single-division match this year with 400+ competitors in 3-division match in 2012.

The numbers for Limited division only:

2013 - 246 competitors

2012 - 261 competitor

I can't find numbers for other divisions yet, but for Limited it was only 20 people difference, which could be easily explained by the shortage of ammo and many other factors.