2014 Nationals - Back to Combined?

[shred]

Last I read the policy, one of the World Shoot team slots goes to the winner of the Nationals. Makes sense to have a "Pick your best and run it" Nationals or we might have to cut Nils in half for the WS (well, we still might if he wins the SS or Revo...)

I've shot World Shoots and Level 4's with the 5-days, one-off half-days schedule and it's not a cram-in-as-many-stages-as-you-can fest, but it makes for a good match and a great way to see who is the best across a whole lot of different stages. The St. George range needs more parking but is way better and more accessible than Vegas.

I would guess that being near the end of Sept, a number of international shooters will come over to shoot the US Nats, then stay for the WS. Who wants to put on another match inbetween in North Texas or Ark or somewhere on the way?

[flack jacket]

It may not limit the competitors but it will water down the competition. The best shooters in the country will be spread out in other divisions and won't be going head to head. If true competition is what you want then you want the best shooting against the best. We had our first peak at this during Revo Nats with TGO and Jerry going at it for the first time against each (that I know of) other. In the past there was no reason for TGO to pick up a wheel gun. To me anyway, Nils win this year has to be one of the best nats wins ever when you consider the depth of the competition and just how close the race was.

If you just want 400 people coming out and rubbing shoulders together and catching up with how the family is doing, then lump them all together and have a BBQ at the end of the week.

I agree with you. Many of the top shooters will HAVE to choose "a" division vs. the previous back to back set up.

This huge 5 day would work better in the early days when there was only 2 divisions. LTD and OPEN

[Carmoney]

The St. George range needs more parking but is way better and more accessible than Vegas.

You have gotta be kidding me, Shred.

To access St. George, most people will have to fly into Vegas and then drive in their rental car for two frickin' hours. How is that more accessible?

If you're talking about the actual range itself, Desert Sportsman's Club in Las Vegas is extremely accessible from any number of nearby motels. There's no reason to fight the traffic on the strip unless you want to.

[motosapiens]

The St. George range needs more parking but is way better and more accessible than Vegas.

You have gotta be kidding me, Shred.

To access St. George, most people will have to fly into Vegas and then drive in their rental car for two frickin' hours. How is that more accessible?

If you're talking about the actual range itself, Desert Sportsman's Club in Las Vegas is extremely accessible from any number of nearby motels. There's no reason to fight the traffic on the strip unless you want to.

The traffic from the match hotel to desert sportsman was horrendous imho. Perhaps city-slickers are used to sitting at a light for multiple minutes, but I didn't like it. St George is much easier to get around.

In vegas you only have to drive 1 frickin' hour to get across town, so I guess that's *slightly* better than st george in that one respect for folks that fly.

[Jerome]

This thread is becoming a pretty good resource of pluses and minuses for future Nationals.

I attended the Limited National and really liked the St George area. I've been to LV many times so having the match there does not appeal to me - especially when I hear about the range conditions there. If I want to gamble, Mesquite is close by and 1.5 hour drive to LV is not that far.

There are plenty of hotels and restaurants in St George. It's a bit of a tourist area so I don't think the influx of 1,000 or so shooters & match support personal will have a big impact. At the match, I didn't hear anyone complain about it being hard to get there. They have a small airport that we could have flown into with 1 stop from Texas but we drove. The price of flying into St George vs LV is quite a bit higher though. You could probably fly into LV AND rent a car for the week for the same price as flying into St George. At least that was the case when I shopped for a flight.

I liked the format of 3 - 1/2 days. 2 Days would have been fine too but 5 days I think is a bit long for me. I think they were hoping for more shooters in Limited breaking it up like that. So, that was a bit disappointing.

One of the great benefits of playing this sport is that you can compete with and shoot side by side (same match, same stages) with some of the greatest shooters in the world. You can't do that with say golf. If you wanted, you could just make it an invitational type match with just the top shooters but I would not be for that at all. I don't think that would better promote or expand the sport.

[Chuck Anderson]

The St. George range needs more parking but is way better and more accessible than Vegas.

You have gotta be kidding me, Shred.

To access St. George, most people will have to fly into Vegas and then drive in their rental car for two frickin' hours. How is that more accessible?

If you're talking about the actual range itself, Desert Sportsman's Club in Las Vegas is extremely accessible from any number of nearby motels. There's no reason to fight the traffic on the strip unless you want to.

Or as many people have mentioned to you, just fly into St. George. Personally, I prefer to fly into Vegas because Delta is not my favorite airline. Plus the drive has some incredible scenery. I'd also rather spend two hours at the front end and two hours at the back end of the trip than an hour a day fighting Vegas traffic. Gotta say, I hear the most negative things about St. George from people who have never been there before. Rarely (actually can't think of any) hear them from people who have been. The closest thing is people who say you can't get alcohol there. I've never had any problem at all drinking in St. George. Not sure where people are going that they can't find a drink? McDonalds?

[Chuck Anderson]

Rich reminds me that there's something else interesting about a five day nationals versus a three day: It's harder to shoot that many half-days in a row and maintain focus....

It's like shooting 5 club matches in a row while trying to remain consistent, and shoot each one perfectly....

Nationals should be harder than the largest area match....

This is a good point. As joe sixpack, I'm not sure how i feel about the half-day format (after shooting it for the first time last week). It sure takes alot more of my time, but it gives me a LOT more time to preview and plan all the stages. I'd probably rather shoot 10-stages/day for 3 days and be done with it. Doesn't really matter what I think tho, the match should be appropriate for a national championship, not for my walter-mitty fantasies of rubbing shoulders with the big boys.

More importantly, as an RO who is not yet retired, a 5 day event is not really feasible for me. I am probably going to use the same amount of time and money next year to do area 1 and 4 or 5 sectionals.

The downside of 10 stages in three days is you can only fit half the number of people into the match. That's the reason for the 1/2 day format. It doubles the number of people that get to shoot the match. A match that can fit 20 stages into 3 days on a half day format for 300 shooters would only be able to allow 150 shooters for the same match in 1 1/2 days. Same thing with a 5 day match on a half day schedule. 30 stages/5 days/600 shooters vs. 30 stages/2 1/2 days/300 shooters. Basic match math. If we're going to combine all the divisions we're going to have more interest than capacity with a full day format for everyone. That said, I hope they come up with a full day option for some people. Otherwise I won't be shooting a Nationals next year. I have a conflict on Sept 27 that I won't get out of. If there isn't a way to shoot it quicker it's going to be my first year since 2001 without shooting a pistol nats.

[CHA-LEE]

I am all for one big combined match. The primary reason is that the current "Back to Back" setup really isn’t fair because most of the shooters who shoot both matches basically get a "Practice" run on all of the stages in the first match. This to me is very unfair to the shooters who can't attend both matches.

This year the Limited match was first and the Open/L10 match was second. There were a lot of shooters who’s primary division they usually compete in is "Open" or "L10" and they were attending the Limited match to simply gain some trigger time on the stages before the Open/L10 match.

The stages usually only get minor changes from one match to the next and the moving targets rarely change at all. Having an opportunity to have a “Practice” run on the moving targets in the first match to see what can or can’t be done so the correct decision can be made for the second match IS an unfair advantage. The same goes for testing out different stage plans or target engagement orders. At the nationals winning and losing is usually only separated by a few match points or tenths of a second. Being able to shoot all of the stages in the first match as practice for the second match is an unfair advantage.

Requiring shooters to pick a single division to compete in is the only way to make it an even playing field for all shooters.

I think that they should do away with the whole “Slots” situation for the nationals. Its all a big joke anyway because you can simply show up with cash in hand the day before the match and get into the match anyway if you didn’t qualify for the match or get pulled into the match from the wait list.

Entry into the nationals should be done like most other major matches. First come, first served. Match registration opens on XXX date and entries are processed in a first come first serve basis after that date. The biggest limitation to attending the match will always be the expensive entry fee, travel expenses, and time off. So the costs of the match will be the number one limitation for attendance, not the availability of open slots or “Want” to go to the match.

As a match director myself, I don’t see how they could have one big match without providing a “Pre Match” for the match staff. There are a lot of RO’s, including myself, that do the Work One/Shoot One at the back to back nationals and if you take away the ability to shoot the match for the RO’s a lot of the volunteers will choose to shoot instead of work. A 30 stage Nationals would require a match staff of at least 100 people. Finding 100+ match staff that are willing to burn up a week of their vacation/time to help run a match they can’t even participate in will be a significant challenge. I can tell you up front, that I wouldn’t do it. I would rather shoot the match if I was asked to choose between working it or shooting it.

[BritinUSA]

There is a pre-match for Single-Stack Nationals and also for MultiGun so I think the Combined Nationals should also have a pre-match. I ave already suggested the same to Phil Strader and John Amidon at the recent Nationals.

I suggest that others who think the same way should also contact the USPSA President with the same suggestion and perhaps this can become a reality.

[MarkCO]

As a match director myself, I don’t see how they could have one big match without providing a “Pre Match” for the match staff.

I think the Combined Nationals should also have a pre-match.

Would you suggest that the "Pre-Match" count for score in the overalls of Nationals or be a smaller subset?

[JakeMartens]

Count for score

[CHA-LEE]

Obviously count for score. But it should be strictly limited to only Match staff who would be supporting the main match.

[BritinUSA]

It would count for score, just like at an IPSC World Shoot.

Limited to Match Staff only, if you are working the 'main' match then you should get a slot for the pre-match...

[whitedog]

Maybe not knowing the stages until you shoot is a good thing. Would be interesting to see how some would handle it. It's the instant info age though...

[motosapiens]

Well, everyone serious walks the stages the day before, or in the morning, or in between their own stages. You don't have to shoot it to get lots of benefit from looking at it and watching other people shoot it. One nice thing about the half-day format is having the time to watch other shooters on the next set of stages you'll be facing. Of course everyone has the same opportunity, so it's not really any advantage unless other people skip it. I'd guess it's more of an advantage for us support-class shooters than for the top dogs, since they appear to much better and faster at stage planning.

[Carmoney]

The traffic from the match hotel to desert sportsman was horrendous imho. Perhaps city-slickers are used to sitting at a light for multiple minutes, but I didn't like it. St George is much easier to get around.

In vegas you only have to drive 1 frickin' hour to get across town, so I guess that's *slightly* better than st george in that one respect for folks that fly.

Which match hotel? Are you talking about a couple years ago when the match hotel was the crappy old Riviera down on the strip? I could see where you might not have liked the traffic down there. That year, the smart move was to stay at a nice motel (example--the Best Western Plus on W. Sahara) right out near the range--that allows you to park close to your room, and eliminates the half-mile walk through the casino with a bunch of heavy gear. Last year's match hotel, The Suncoast, is only a few minutes from the range and was an excellent and very accessible option.

It doesn't matter, though. People who are anti-Vegas are going to stay anti-Vegas no matter how much logic is presented to them.

[Carmoney]

I am all for one big combined match. The primary reason is that the current "Back to Back" setup really isn’t fair because most of the shooters who shoot both matches basically get a "Practice" run on all of the stages in the first match. This to me is very unfair to the shooters who can't attend both matches.

I understand the theoretical argument, but I'm not sure it holds up in real life. In real life, I suspect the fatigue factor offsets the "practice run" factor. I've shot both sides of a back-to-back Nationals, and found I was really tired by the time I got to the second match. I'll bet the majority of competitors who shoot both matches wind up performing better on the first one.

[CHA-LEE]

I am all for one big combined match. The primary reason is that the current "Back to Back" setup really isn’t fair because most of the shooters who shoot both matches basically get a "Practice" run on all of the stages in the first match. This to me is very unfair to the shooters who can't attend both matches.

I understand the theoretical argument, but I'm not sure it holds up in real life. In real life, I suspect the fatigue factor offsets the "practice run" factor. I've shot both sides of a back-to-back Nationals, and found I was really tired by the time I got to the second match. I'll bet the majority of competitors who shoot both matches wind up performing better on the first one.

To each their own I guess. I can tell you that if this year the Open/L10 match was first and Limited match was second, I would have GLADLY shot the Open match with my Limited gun to get a practice run on all of the stages before the Limited match. Having an opportunity to test out stage plans or activated target strategies would have been an advantage for me.

[motosapiens]

Last year's match hotel, The Suncoast, is only a few minutes from the range and was an excellent and very accessible option.

It doesn't matter, though. People who are anti-Vegas are going to stay anti-Vegas no matter how much logic is presented to them.

I apparently hate traffic more than you do. I just hate vegas. I hate that every frickin traffic light is a multi-minute wait. I hate it. Vegas sucks. Vegas is lame. Did I forget anything?

I had to go to vegas for work this year the day before I had to be in st george. In comparing them back to back, vegas sucks and st george is quite pleasant.

Edited October 6, 2013 by motosapiens

[The Antichrome]

The disadvantage to having so many stand-alone National matches:

> Due to having two Nationals this year, and some confusion generated by the

> application process, we find ourselves a little short on staff for the

> Production Nationals, October 16-19, in Tulsa Oklahoma.

>

> If any certified Range Officers have the time to pitch in on this match,

> the help would be appreciated. We could use at least 6 people. Your

> housing will be covered at the Renaissance Hotel in Tulsa from Tuesday

> night, October 15 through Saturday night, October 19. You will receive

> breakfast at the hotel, lunch on the range, and a per diem allowance of

> $15 per day for your evening meal. In addition, a travel allowance of

> $375 can be claimed. If you drive, keep a log of your mileage and submit

> that for reimbursement.

>

> In addition, Phil Strader announced that staff can shoot the entire match

> on October 16, for $1. Contact USPSA HQ for more information on slots for

> that.

> Note that this is an 18 stage match, with 366 rounds required.

>

> Please reply to me, (Troy McManus) mactiger@eatel.net, if you are able to help.

Edited October 6, 2013 by The Antichrome

[JakeMartens]

The disadvantage to having so many stand-alone National matches:

> Due to having two Nationals this year, and some confusion generated by the

> application process, we find ourselves a little short on staff for the

> Production Nationals, October 16-19, in Tulsa Oklahoma.

>

> If any certified Range Officers have the time to pitch in on this match,

> the help would be appreciated. We could use at least 6 people. Your

> housing will be covered at the Renaissance Hotel in Tulsa from Tuesday

> night, October 15 through Saturday night, October 19. You will receive

> breakfast at the hotel, lunch on the range, and a per diem allowance of

> $15 per day for your evening meal. In addition, a travel allowance of

> $375 can be claimed. If you drive, keep a log of your mileage and submit

> that for reimbursement.

>

> In addition, Phil Strader announced that staff can shoot the entire match

> on October 16, for $1. Contact USPSA HQ for more information on slots for

> that.

> Note that this is an 18 stage match, with 366 rounds required.

>

> Please reply to me, (Troy McManus) mactiger@eatel.net, if you are able to help.

Already signed up and got in on Friday

I would do that, but I am working on Tuesday and driving down after work and thru the night.

Funny they do not post this information on their website, or fb pages, but email it out, but match information got put on the fb page.....

They need to put someone in charge of communications/promotions......

[justaute]

Jake...logic, common sense, and management competence are certainly nice.

[motosapiens]

If the politicians would promise to keep the government shut down another 2 weeks, I would be at production nats in a heartbeat.

I can definitely see where spreading the nationals out can make it tough to get staff. I've worked the last 2 limited nationals, and for someone who has a job, and a garden, and dogs, and a family that doesn't shoot, you end up burning alot of kitchen passes. It's still totally worth it, and an incredible learning experience, but it is not very feasible for me to work more than 1 separate 3+ day national match in a year.

Hopefully the opportunity to shoot the match will make 6 RO's that are more local appear out of thin air.

Edited October 7, 2013 by motosapiens

[BritinUSA]

The formal announcement of the dates has been posted on the USPSA web-site.

It does not appear that there will be a pre-match for the combined Nationals, but there is one for Single Stack and MultiGun.

[JakeMartens]

The formal announcement of the dates has been posted on the USPSA web-site.

It does not appear that there will be a pre-match for the combined Nationals, but there is one for Single Stack and MultiGun.

(shameless plug #2)

For those that cannot do a week in Utah there will be the Indiana USPSA Championship Sept 12-14th, 18 stages, 375ish rounds

Shoot Friday PM/Saturday AM

or

Saturday PM/Sunday AM

Edited October 23, 2013 by JakeMartens