Why no bullet overlays?

[steel1212]

Brian pretty much nailed it. My point was because I'm a master in IDPA and GM in USPSA I don't get the close calls. My hits are either there or they aren't. Where as joe new guy gets the calls. Because he is joe new guy and ain't a damn thing you can do about it.

As for me pointing out bad hit calls on other shooters? Nope and I've lost state matches because I won't.

[Racinready300ex]

2. In the scenario given, would you really pull out an overlay to try and degrade a score given to another shooter by an SO? I know what MY answer to that question would be...

In local matches (where many SO's are not certified or don't have much experience), I will absolutely request the SO/RO take another look if I believe an incorrect score was called.

I want to be sure I understand this...you would stop the scoring and send for the RO/MD (who is probably himself shooting on a different squad) to try and change (downgrade!) a score that's not even your own?

No, I would request the RO/SO take another look at it and explain why I think the score should be different. Makes no difference whether it's an upgrade or a downgrade, just that it is correct. I would hope anyone else would do the same for me if I missed something. It's not that unusual to make a mistake.

Exactly, when I'm scoring if I mess up I want someone to speak up. I'll go back and look, if I was wrong no hard feelings I just want the score to be correct. And if you think it broke the line, I wish I could just use a overlay to figure it out. As it is, it'll be up to me and I'll be as fair as I can. But if I think it's out, it's out. I'll decide when it is to close and goes to the shooter.

[BillR1]

No, I would request the RO/SO take another look at it and explain why I think the score should be different. Makes no difference whether it's an upgrade or a downgrade, just that it is correct. I would hope anyone else would do the same for me if I missed something. It's not that unusual to make a mistake.

OK, I was just trying to relate the situation to our local matches. At the state matches I've shot in, the SOs stay with the stage and the RO/MD is usually quickly available for any disputes.

For myself, I wouldn't even think of asking the SO for a downgrade re-score on a target that was not my own. I have pointed out my own HNTs that were missed by the SO. I can't control the scores given to other shooters. I try to make sure MINE are correct, but if the SO and I don't agree on a line, it's his call...period! I'm fine with that, and I trust that he won't try to cheat me simply because he happens to be in the same division/classification.

[GmanCdp]

so I was doing some practice the other night SHO @ 14yds, and grabbed some photos of hits OR misses.. what do you think ?

[v1911]

I'm not an SO, but I'd say that Baer is a "hit".

The only shot that looks remotely close to being questionable (meaning you get the better score) would be the body/head shot. I'm not an SO, but since I had to take a closer look, I would assume you got the -0.

[COF]

All hardcover misses and a -1

[Cd662]

Some of those look like misses and some look like hits to me, further reinforcing the subjective manner of the entire discussion.

[midvalleyshooter]

I could quickly tell with a scoring overlay:)

Seriously IMO many folks that SO at the IDPA matches I have been to have never seen an overlay and don't understand the actual size of the bullet holes. I think a grass roots effort to educate SO's in a good natured way is the best approach. I would not be surprised if it was approached so that the result is that overlays provide the fairest scoring for all shooters that some local matches would start using them "AS AN INSTRUCTIONAL TOOL FOR THE SO's AND SHOOTERS."

YMMV,

Keith

Edited September 8, 2013 by midvalleyshooter

[Forrest Halley]

Well thanks for the eight pages of discussion!

I've learned:

SWC's are better than FMJ.

Overlays are fair and efficient.

I've decided to shoot giant SWC's in IDPA. This will give me a chance to take advantage of the optical illusion since they can't use overlays to give me the score I deserve. I think it'll help my score tremendously. The big holes will save the people the walk to get closer to the target while scoring. If it doesn't go my way I'll have the ability to question them on it saying they were too far away to see it properly.

Overlays are terribly efficient. They require the timer guy only to ask what caliber, then he slaps the plastic to it and gets an answer which the shooter can also see. Too transparent of a process? It's eliminating the human nature to question uncertainty and making scoring less subjective.

[GmanCdp]

went and played the other game this weekend and got carded 2 times and didn't even asked for it.. with 10 guys to a squad, and 12 stages, I saw the card 8 times in 2 days. Most went against the shooter and I could not believe 1 guy wanted it carded for a nick not even close to the perf. That took maybe 15 seconds to check... All and all it did not slow down the scoring process..

Edited September 9, 2013 by GmanCdp

[Flexmoney]

Like I said, it comes down to trust. You either trust the SOs to ... make the right calls, or you don't.

I don't.

As to the trust statement, what would you do if you had SO's you couldn't trust to make a correct/fair call?

I have no idea...I've never experienced that. I guess I'd just do the best I could and find someplace else to shoot next time.

I have a hard time believing that an SO would intentionally try to cheat me in a game where there's so little at stake. There's no money involved, so what's the point?

So, you don't trust that he is sharing actual/factual experience with you? (Oh...it doesn't need to be a question of cheating or integrity...to be a question of getting the right call.)

[BillR1]

Like I said, it comes down to trust. You either trust the SOs to ... make the right calls, or you don't.

I don't.

As to the trust statement, what would you do if you had SO's you couldn't trust to make a correct/fair call?

I have no idea...I've never experienced that. I guess I'd just do the best I could and find someplace else to shoot next time.

I have a hard time believing that an SO would intentionally try to cheat me in a game where there's so little at stake. There's no money involved, so what's the point?

So, you don't trust that he is sharing actual/factual experience with you? (Oh...it doesn't need to be a question of cheating or integrity...to be a question of getting the right call.)

I guess that's the difference, Kyle. I DO trust the SOs to do their best and I believe that they're going to be honest until proven otherwise. If that makes me more susceptible to being cheated, so be it. Like I said, it's not like there's money involved. It's a game for "bragging rights" and little wooden plaques. If someone wants to "win" that badly that they're willing to cheat a fellow competitor to gain an advantage, they can have it. I still do this for fun.

[ktm300]

I DO trust the SOs to do their best and I believe that they're going to be honest until proven otherwise.

I trust most of the guys as well. There are some bad apples but they are few and far between. The problem is their best is not all that good as they have never been exposed to the variation in the size of the visible holes in the target. I would also guess if you talk to 20 SO's that work local matches you will find that most don't understand that most of the time it's the grease ring, not the hole that matters. Nor do they understand how to call a target that was shot at a steep angle, or an edge hit, or a........................

I would be willing to bet a nice dinner that I could take a target with 20 bullet holes close to the perforations, shot with different types of bullets and most (not all for sure) people that have never used an overlay would call well more than half of them wrong. I would have before I started using an overlay to score close targets in USPSA.

What is close to me may not be close to you. What is close to one SO on the stage may not be close to one of the other guys that are running shooters on that stage. So without a trust issue at all you can have a very wide variety of calls on a stage. What is the definition of close?

Can you call a target wrong with an overlay, yep, but its hard if you know how to use one. For sure it is a lot harder to call one wrong with an overlay than without one.

I still do this for fun.

To some people part of the fun is doing well in their division and class. To some people it is just being out shooting. Variety is the spice of life. Subjectivity in the way the rules are implemented and shots are called takes a lot of the fun out of it for me.

[BillR1]

I DO trust the SOs to do their best and I believe that they're going to be honest until proven otherwise.

I trust most of the guys as well. There are some bad apples but they are few and far between. The problem is their best is not all that good as they have never been exposed to the variation in the size of the visible holes in the target. I would also guess if you talk to 20 SO's that work local matches you will find that most don't understand that most of the time it's the grease ring, not the hole that matters. Nor do they understand how to call a target that was shot at a steep angle, or an edge hit, or a........................

I would be willing to bet a nice dinner that I could take a target with 20 bullet holes close to the perforations, shot with different types of bullets and most (not all for sure) people that have never used an overlay would call well more than half of them wrong. I would have before I started using an overlay to score close targets in USPSA.

What is close to me may not be close to you. What is close to one SO on the stage may not be close to one of the other guys that are running shooters on that stage. So without a trust issue at all you can have a very wide variety of calls on a stage. What is the definition of close?

Can you call a target wrong with an overlay, yep, but its hard if you know how to use one. For sure it is a lot harder to call one wrong with an overlay than without one.

I still do this for fun.

To some people part of the fun is doing well in their division and class. To some people it is just being out shooting. Variety is the spice of life. Subjectivity in the way the rules are implemented and shots are called takes a lot of the fun out of it for me.

Don't get me wrong...I enjoy doing well also. Both of my classification changes in SSP have been match bumps.

Is there a wide variety of abilities/eyesight/etc. in SOs? Absolutely! The same goes for any sport where there's scoring with a human official. That's going to happen.

You asked the question "what's the definition of close?" My answer would be if you need an overlay to tell if a shot is in or out, then it's in! "Close" goes to the shooter, according to IDPA. That just seems simpler to me than having to pull out a plastic card. It may not always be exactly correct, but the shooter gets the benefit of the doubt on close calls.

[motosapiens]

Don't get me wrong...I enjoy doing well also. Both of my classification changes in SSP have been match bumps.

Is there a wide variety of abilities/eyesight/etc. in SOs? Absolutely! The same goes for any sport where there's scoring with a human official. That's going to happen.

You asked the question "what's the definition of close?" My answer would be if you need an overlay to tell if a shot is in or out, then it's in! "Close" goes to the shooter, according to IDPA. That just seems simpler to me than having to pull out a plastic card. It may not always be exactly correct, but the shooter gets the benefit of the doubt on close calls.

I feel like i'm going around in circles...... Allow me to restate, the problem is, that with an overlay, the call is the same every time, for every RO. Without an overlay, just relying on 'if it's close, it's in', the call is NOT the same every time. Different RO's will make different calls, depending on experience and preferences and what their definition of 'close' is. To me, that is not fair.

I personally call about the same as i would with an overlay, since after using an overlay a few dozen times, I have a pretty good idea of how big a 9mm hole is.

But whatever, it's not that big a deal. There is so much other totally subjective and tribal stuff in IDPA that I can't really take it more seriously than participating in monthly matches, which I enjoy alot. I don't get bent around the axle about the rules changing depending on who is making the decisions.

[steel1212]

" My answer would be if you need an overlay to tell if a shot is in or out, then it's in! "Close" goes to the shooter, according to IDPA.

Then the score can be incorrect and is to subjective to be consistent no matter what IDPA says.

[ktm300]

You asked the question "what's the definition of close?" My answer would be if you need an overlay to tell if a shot is in or out, then it's in! "Close" goes to the shooter, according to IDPA. That just seems simpler to me than having to pull out a plastic card. It may not always be exactly correct, but the shooter gets the benefit of the doubt on close calls.

You make my point. What looks close enough to need an overlay would be different for you, and I, and just about every SO out there. On a damp or wet target it would be different, on an edge hit it would be different, pointed bullet to flat nose it would be different, on an angle it would be different, etc, etc, etc.

I have seen shots that looked to be around 1/8" off the line that touched the line with an overlay. I have seen shots that looked 1/32" that didn't touch. Without the overlay I would have called both wrong. I have seen double hits that were so close to one hole that I only found them with an overlay. Do you call a miss? I would have had to without the simple .25 cent tool.

It would be simpler to just not keep score and people would still have fun but then it would not be a competition.

[sperman]

I thought this thread had finally died, but the same guys are back making the same arguments. Has anyone's opinion been changed by the 194 posts in this thread?

[Maksim]

So if I understand this correctly, to a complete newbie it would seem like...

IDPA = Socialist = You are given the hit whenever there is any doubt in the RO SO's mind, and he is not required to explain. And if he does not think there is any doubt, you do not get the points, yet... for someone else, the same hit may have "doubt" and they would get the points?

USPSA = Republican/Free Market = You are given the opportunity to keep what you earn, and you have avenues to go down if you want, ie... Ask the RO for an Overlay, then ask CRO, then ask to have target pulled, ultimately, arbitration.

[Maksim]

I thought this thread had finally died, but the same guys are back making the same arguments. Has anyone's opinion been changed by the 194 posts in this thread?

Actually, I seriously did not know that it is up to the SO, and did not think about the high inconsistency in the calls, essentially, ripe for abuse. Granted, at local matches where there is little but bragging rights on the line, it may not be as big of a deal.... but at larger matches.... I would have a serious issue with it.

[BillR1]

Has anyone's opinion been changed by the 194 posts in this thread?

I don't think so, nor does the possibility seem likely. Bottom line, IDPA decided not to use overlays for whatever reason. We can debate the reasoning behind it for eternity, and it's doubtful that any changes will happen.

Thankfully, there are games that fit both schools of thought on scoring methods. Everyone can find something they like or prefer.

[Cd662]

"I guess that's the difference, Kyle. I DO trust the SOs to do their best and I believe that they're going to be honest until proven otherwise. If that makes me more susceptible to being cheated, so be it. Like I said, it's not like there's money involved. It's a game for "bragging rights" and little wooden plaques. If someone wants to "win" that badly that they're willing to cheat a fellow competitor to gain an advantage, they can have it. I still do this for fun."

There IS money involved. I don't know why people don't understand this. If you practice AT ALL in ANY capacity, there are ammunition costs, range fees, practice match costs, and travel costs. Maybe you're OK with being cheated, but I don't spend quadruple digits to get cheated.

[v1911]

This horse has been pounded into glue.

No one is forcing others to spend time and money on a sport they don't enjoy. When you sign up for an IDPA match, you agree to the rules.

If you dislike the rules that much, play another game. Why be frustrated playing a game you don't agree with?

[ktm300]

This horse has been pounded into glue.

No one is forcing others to spend time and money on a sport they don't enjoy. When you sign up for an IDPA match, you agree to the rules.

If you dislike the rules that much, play another game. Why be frustrated playing a game you don't agree with?

Yep, I guess the answer is

I

Don't

Participate

Anymore

Or try to change it for the better.

[Strick]

Just to make a small point in this overdone thread.......

If "close calls" or hits that require close examination are to be just scored in the shooters favor then why is there a method of pulling targets to have the MD examine them closer..........just asking.