Why no bullet overlays?

[steel1212]

So by agreeing that they are more accurate you conclude that they give the correct score more often than not using them. With that said your ok with a scorning system that isn't as accurate as it can be?

[sirveyr]

Bill,

This is the overlay that we are talking about. They are small and easy to use. I photographed this one on a 1/3 size USPSA target that I use for dry fire, so the size may be decieving. It is actually the same size as a credit card. I didn't want you to think that we were discussing something that needed to be filled with fuel, kick started and driven to the bay by someone with a CDL. Using an overlay doesn't slow down a match at all. All of the competitors appreciate the use of overlays to determine the actual score that was earned. I wish that IDPA had included these in the new RB, but they may have been excluded because they were considered too "IPSC-y". Who knows?

[Brian Gonsalves]

"4.5.1. If the Safety Officer has to look at a target very closely for an extended time to determine if a shot has touched a better scoring line, the better value will be used. IDPA scoring will not use scoring plugs or overlays. When a Safety Officer has a reasonable doubt on a scoring call, award the better score to the shooter. "

That is (IMO) is pretty clear. The shooter gets the benefit on close calls, and no overlays are needed.

It may seem pretty clear but it is still open to interpretation of the SO. The rule quoted above is from the new book, and it is very similar to the one in Old/Current book:

When scoring a competitor’s target, the SO should always give the

shooter the benefit of the doubt. If you have to closely look for

more than a few seconds at a hit, the higher value should be given

to the shooter

However I have had a Match Director at a State Championship (Sanctioned Match) say, "by giving it a second look I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt. I already knew it didn't make it."

When thinking about match flow, how much time does waiting for the MD to come over to verify a call or pulling the target take? I could use an overlay on a bunch of holes, while waiting for the MD.

No a bash on IDPA, it's their rules and I play by them. It's just hard sometimes to understand why something that is so simple and fair is used. And, I'd guess it wasn't considered very much???

[steel1212]

Brian I've never seen a MD called or a target pulled. Every time I've seen a overlay used its been by the CRO. The call is made and the scoring continues.

[BillR1]

So by agreeing that they are more accurate you conclude that they give the correct score more often than not using them. With that said your ok with a scorning system that isn't as accurate as it can be?

Corey- to use again my previous analogy...

Are TV cameras more accurate to call balls and strikes in a baseball game? Absolutely! Would I prefer it over an umpire-called game? Not a chance!

IMO, the benefits of using overlays don't outweigh the costs. I just don't think THAT many calls would be actually changed. Again, that's my opinion. You probably have a lot more experience in competition shooting than I do. IDPA must've had their own reasons for keeping the scoring the way it is. In my limited exposure to major matches, I don't see any overwhelming reason to change it either.

[steel1212]

So by agreeing that they are more accurate you conclude that they give the correct score more often than not using them. With that said your ok with a scorning system that isn't as accurate as it can be?

Corey- to use again my previous analogy...

Are TV cameras more accurate to call balls and strikes in a baseball game? Absolutely! Would I prefer it over an umpire-called game? Not a chance!

IMO, the benefits of using overlays don't outweigh the costs. I just don't think THAT many calls would be actually changed. Again, that's my opinion. You probably have a lot more experience in competition shooting than I do. IDPA must've had their own reasons for keeping the scoring the way it is. In my limited exposure to major matches, I don't see any overwhelming reason to change it either.

This isn't baseball. He'll football went to instant reply if you want to use sports analogies. What are the cost? Only thing I've heard is it slows down the match which I've never seen.

[Brian Gonsalves]

Brian I've never seen a MD called or a target pulled. Every time I've seen a overlay used its been by the CRO. The call is made and the scoring continues.

Hi Corey,

Sorry I wasn't more clear. I think the overlay SHOULD be used and WOULD save time. I was addressing where someone said the overlay would slow match flow. The point I was trying to make, was when an IDPA shooter doesn't feel the SO has made the right call, time is spent waiting for the MD or pulling and replacing the target. Where in the case of the overlay, it's a quick easy yes or no and back the shooting we go!

[Brian Gonsalves]

What are the cost? Only thing I've heard is it slows down the match which I've never seen.

I'm curious too, what is the cost?

Edited July 7, 2013 by Brian Gonsalves

[BillR1]

The SO looks at the targets and makes the calls. If it's that close to need an overlay, the shooter gets the higher score. That seems quite a bit faster than pulling out a card and trying to measure. If you need to pull out the card, then the shooter gets the higher score.

Anyway, it doesn't really matter if you or I agree with the rule or not. IDPA has chosen not to use overlays. I'm OK with that...

[ima45dv8]

Just to be fair, USPSA scoring discrepancies aren't simply a CRO whipping out overlays, calling a score, and no delay after. People have been painting that picture in this thread and it just isn't so.

As an RM at multiple Level 2 matches I've been called many times to examine targets upon which the CRO and competitor had a differing view of the scores...with overlays.

No, it doesn't take much time to pull the target. replace it with a fresh one and call for the RM, but that's not the entire point. The point is that IDPA doesn't choose to do it that way, and debating it here is like wetting your pants in a dark suit....it feels warm and fuzzy, but no one notices.

Make your opinions known to IDPA, and if they don't respond favorably....live with it or move on.

================

With the above being said, I notice that too many recent IDPA rules threads have devolved into IDPA vs. USPSA discussions.

Stop it.

If you see your post disappear into the vaprosphere, you'll know why without asking.

[steel1212]

Just to be fair, USPSA scoring discrepancies aren't simply a CRO whipping out overlays, calling a score, and no delay after. People have been painting that picture in this thread and it just isn't so.

As an RM at multiple Level 2 matches I've been called many times to examine targets upon which the CRO and competitor had a differing view of the scores...with overlays.

No, it doesn't take much time to pull the target. replace it with a fresh one and call for the RM, but that's not the entire point. The point is that IDPA doesn't choose to do it that way, and debating it here is like wetting your pants in a dark suit....it feels warm and fuzzy, but no one notices.

Make your opinions known to IDPA, and if they don't respond favorably....live with it or move on.

================

With the above being said, I notice that too many recent IDPA rules threads have devolved into IDPA vs. USPSA discussions.

Stop it.

If you see your post disappear into the vaprosphere, you'll know why without asking.

Mark how often have you seen that at a local which is 90% of the matches. Anyway I guess I would rather have a accurate score across the board and a overlay eliminates subjectivity of it.

[ima45dv8]

I've seen overlays used often at locals, but targets are hardly ever pulled at the locals I've shot.

As a scoring practice it is mostly accurate, just not as instantaneous as some have promoted.

[steel1212]

I've seen overlays used often at locals, but targets are hardly ever pulled at the locals I've shot.

As a scoring practice it is mostly accurate, just not as instantaneous as some have promoted.

That's it all staff must get calibrated eyeballs!!

[JD45]

Again, I think that if the guy scoring your target always looked at all close calls the same, it would be a smaller problem.

However, the person scoring will be more fond of some people than others, too often. This is the big issue, not the too close to call part.

[BillR1]

Again, I think that if the guy scoring your target always looked at all close calls the same, it would be a smaller problem.

However, the person scoring will be more fond of some people than others, too often. This is the big issue, not the too close to call part.

Yep, humans are imperfect and disagreements are going to happen, with or without overlays.

[steel1212]

Again, I think that if the guy scoring your target always looked at all close calls the same, it would be a smaller problem.

However, the person scoring will be more fond of some people than others, too often. This is the big issue, not the too close to call part.

Yep, humans are imperfect and disagreements are going to happen, with or without overlays.

What is saying is bubba know steveo so steveo gets the close down zero where as bubba doesn't know hank or maybe even doesn't like hank and doesn't get the same courtesy.

[Flexmoney]

I like to use overlays because people can be full of...opinions.

I've scored thousands and thousands and thousands of bullet holes, in a variety of shooting sports. If a hole is close to a scoring line, I prefer to use an overlay. I almost do it automatically. It is usually faster than looking at it closely.

And, the hole is just part of the story, really. The overlay better represents the true size of the bullet that went through the target. When used properly, it gives great information, quickly.

[lc2hl]

While I like the idea of overlays, the problem comes from the individual making the call. In IDPA, as a SO, if it is a relaxed fun / practice match, there is no need to go crazy, but calling accurately is not as hard as it is made out to be. Scoring rules are defined in all sports for a reason. The key phrase I heard a few back was honestly.

I shot a USPSA match a few weeks ago where one of my friends shot the stage extremely fluidly and without error. Upon inspection of one of the targets, there was a double (Production / minor) shooting moly. We were standing there discussing with the RO's, who did not believe it was a double. CRO comes out with an overlay, and says "Nope". Problem was there was a second grease ring mark, slightly off to the lower right, and it was plainly visible denotating a seperate bullet strike diameter. After pointing it out, the CRO still says "Nope".

I think if you are going to use an overlay, there needs to be an HONEST decision made, and that is the problem, as it always boils down to people. Plainly visible grease rings, yet an overlay says no...really?

In IDPA, if I had to look that hard, the benefit goes to the shooter as per the rules. Both rules have their purpose, but it takes an honest SO / RO to make the call in either scenario, and that is where the issue lays 99.9% of the time.

[BillR1]

While I like the idea of overlays, the problem comes from the individual making the call. In IDPA, as a SO, if it is a relaxed fun / practice match, there is no need to go crazy, but calling accurately is not as hard as it is made out to be. Scoring rules are defined in all sports for a reason. The key phrase I heard a few back was honestly.

I shot a USPSA match a few weeks ago where one of my friends shot the stage extremely fluidly and without error. Upon inspection of one of the targets, there was a double (Production / minor) shooting moly. We were standing there discussing with the RO's, who did not believe it was a double. CRO comes out with an overlay, and says "Nope". Problem was there was a second grease ring mark, slightly off to the lower right, and it was plainly visible denotating a seperate bullet strike diameter. After pointing it out, the CRO still says "Nope".

I think if you are going to use an overlay, there needs to be an HONEST decision made, and that is the problem, as it always boils down to people. Plainly visible grease rings, yet an overlay says no...really?

In IDPA, if I had to look that hard, the benefit goes to the shooter as per the rules. Both rules have their purpose, but it takes an honest SO / RO to make the call in either scenario, and that is where the issue lays 99.9% of the time.

This!

[steel1212]

Your right it will always take honest staff. I would rather have a honest person with a accurate measuring device than one just using a eyeball

[Flexmoney]

I can teach somebody to use an overlay properly. I can't teach them the other thing very easily.

[BillR1]

Your right it will always take honest staff. I would rather have a honest person with a accurate measuring device than one just using a eyeball

If you're really honest, you don't need any measuring devices. If it's that close to measure, the shooter gets the call. Simple and quick.

[steel1212]

Your right it will always take honest staff. I would rather have a honest person with a accurate measuring device than one just using a eyeball

If you're really honest, you don't need any measuring devices. If it's that close to measure, the shooter gets the call. Simple and quick.

And less accurate across the board. Looks its obvious that you play one game and love it well and I'll never convince you that some people want a accurate score for everybody. The over lay does that you can disagree all you want but the overlay is a more accurate scoring device than a eyeball.

[BillR1]

You probably won't convince me that the overlays will make for a better match experience or that they're worth the extra time taken.

IDPA seems to agree, and that's really all that counts.

[lc2hl]

I can teach somebody to use an overlay properly. I can't teach them the other thing very easily.

Amazing insn't it? All this technology to help / simplify / accurately determine / support rules... and it only takes one dishonest individual to screw it all up.