Why no bullet overlays?

[Bones]

...USPSA... Those sports also explicitly give the competitor the benefit of the doubt. [/size]

Care to cite a rule to back that up?

Sure.

USPSA handgun - 9.5.2

NRA Action Pistol 14.3

ICORE 6.14

Essentially, the shooter always recieves the highest score possible. NRA action pistol uses the word 'doubt' explicitly.

The fact of the matter is most of IDPAs paying customers will realize 0 benefit from a 0.5 sec variance in thier score that an overlay would provide, its volunteer workforce percieves negative complexity in the use of overlays, and the use of overlays is apparently in conflict with IDPAs stated mission of putting an premium on promoting social interaction and camaraderie (page 1 of the new rule book).

The overwhelming majority of shooters I know who have used and experienced both the IDPA and any of the other scoring target methods mentioned above strongly prefers the use of overlays.

Edited July 8, 2013 by Bones

[Racinready300ex]

This is something that amazed me at my very first IDPA match. It's cool USPSA uses overlays, I didn't realize that.(I've only shot USPSA a couple times)

I used to shoot a lot of benchrest, where the differance of a 10 and a 9 can be the differance in 1st and also ran. So at my 1st IDPA match when someone showed me scoring close shots by the grease ring....What a shock.

I would guess IDPA just doesn't want to be that serious. At least we aren't shooting for money or anything like that, if we were the system in place just wouldn't cut it.

Personally I'd prefer it to be done right. When I scored BR matches I plugged everything that was even a little close just to be sure.

[Craig N]

So by agreeing that they are more accurate you conclude that they give the correct score more often than not using them. With that said your ok with a scorning system that isn't as accurate as it can be?

Corey- to use again my previous analogy...

Are TV cameras more accurate to call balls and strikes in a baseball game? Absolutely! Would I prefer it over an umpire-called game? Not a chance!

IMO, the benefits of using overlays don't outweigh the costs. I just don't think THAT many calls would be actually changed. Again, that's my opinion. You probably have a lot more experience in competition shooting than I do. IDPA must've had their own reasons for keeping the scoring the way it is. In my limited exposure to major matches, I don't see any overwhelming reason to change it either.

This isn't baseball. He'll football went to instant reply if you want to use sports analogies. What are the cost? Only thing I've heard is it slows down the match which I've never seen.

And IDPA isn't SASS, ICORE or 3-Gun or any other shooting sport.

[steel1212]

So by agreeing that they are more accurate you conclude that they give the correct score more often than not using them. With that said your ok with a scorning system that isn't as accurate as it can be?

Corey- to use again my previous analogy...

Are TV cameras more accurate to call balls and strikes in a baseball game? Absolutely! Would I prefer it over an umpire-called game? Not a chance!

IMO, the benefits of using overlays don't outweigh the costs. I just don't think THAT many calls would be actually changed. Again, that's my opinion. You probably have a lot more experience in competition shooting than I do. IDPA must've had their own reasons for keeping the scoring the way it is. In my limited exposure to major matches, I don't see any overwhelming reason to change it either.

This isn't baseball. He'll football went to instant reply if you want to use sports analogies. What are the cost? Only thing I've heard is it slows down the match which I've never seen.

And IDPA isn't SASS, ICORE or 3-Gun or any other shooting sport.

Yeah and?

[Ty Hamby]

one more here for overlays in IDPA. Tired of....."its in.... no its out.....not touching.... blah, blah, blah.... now there will always be dispute no matter what.

If I shoot a .356" bullet. I want .356" scouring diameter, that's it.. plane and simple. I don't want a gift, I want what I earned. You would think benefit goes to shooter is sufficient, I'm here to tell you that is not enough. Lifetime IDPA only shooters have no clue what the actual scouring diameter of a bullet looks like. At least those that have never seen or used an overlay to demonstrate the size.

[motosapiens]

So by agreeing that they are more accurate you conclude that they give the correct score more often than not using them. With that said your ok with a scorning system that isn't as accurate as it can be?

Corey- to use again my previous analogy...

Are TV cameras more accurate to call balls and strikes in a baseball game? Absolutely! Would I prefer it over an umpire-called game? Not a chance!

IMO, the benefits of using overlays don't outweigh the costs. I just don't think THAT many calls would be actually changed. Again, that's my opinion. You probably have a lot more experience in competition shooting than I do. IDPA must've had their own reasons for keeping the scoring the way it is. In my limited exposure to major matches, I don't see any overwhelming reason to change it either.

This isn't baseball. He'll football went to instant reply if you want to use sports analogies. What are the cost? Only thing I've heard is it slows down the match which I've never seen.

And IDPA isn't SASS, ICORE or 3-Gun or any other shooting sport.

That's not really a very good excuse for doing a halfassed, subjective and inconsistent job of scoring.

[chevyoneton]

I don't shoot IDPA, because we don't have a club for it nearby. But I have shot a lot of USPSA, NRA Action, and 3-Gun over the last two and half years (not as long as a lot of you I will grant) and can count on one hand the times I have seen an overlay pulled out to score a target during a match. Myself, I have only used one once as a USPSA RO and once in NRA Action Pistol for a grand total of twice, out of thousands of hits scored. The rest I was confident I could tell what the hit truely was, without regard to who the shooter was (friend or foe) but with "give the doubt to the shooter" in mind. I really don't see a problem, I like the IDPA no-overlay rule and I like USPSA gives the option of using one if needed, "when in Rome" I say. Get on with the pasting/re-set and shooting.

[sfchorn]

Why do we need to spend tax money on Police radar? Can't the officer just look at the car and judge how fast it's going?

[motosapiens]

Myself, I have only used one once as a USPSA RO and once in NRA Action Pistol for a grand total of twice, out of thousands of hits scored. The rest I was confident I could tell what the hit truely was, without regard to who the shooter was (friend or foe) but with "give the doubt to the shooter" in mind. I really don't see a problem, I like the IDPA no-overlay rule and I like USPSA gives the option of using one if needed, "when in Rome" I say. Get on with the pasting/re-set and shooting.

I never used an overlay until I worked at nationals. It didn't take long for me to discover that the bullet diameter is significantly bigger than the grease ring for many bullets (but not for many others). Most shooters feel it's important to score correctly, rather than guess.

[steel1212]

Why do we need to spend tax money on Police radar? Can't the officer just look at the car and judge how fast it's going?

:-)

[BillR1]

I really don't see a problem, I like the IDPA no-overlay rule and I like USPSA gives the option of using one if needed, "when in Rome" I say. Get on with the pasting/re-set and shooting.

This!

[M1911]

I've shot USPSA on 1/2 a dozen occasions. I have yet to see an overlay be used (or needed).

I really don't see the need for it.

[steel1212]

I've shot USPSA on 1/2 a dozen occasions. I have yet to see an overlay be used (or needed).

I really don't see the need for it.

I shoot 3-4 USPSA matches a month. At least 2 IDPA matches a month (all we have close) steel at least once a month and 3 gun about 5-6 times a year since 2006.

I've seen them used. I've asked for them to be used. I've used them.

[GmanCdp]

That's all good Corey, but if its never been in the IDPA rules to have it then why stir up the pot of chitilla to get it.. Just walk up look at the target call it and move on. Yes there have been times where I called back a SO to relook at a miss or edge hit, and as a SO have been called back myself. In 12 years,I have had 1 target pulled and brought to me because a shooter said it was a double on a 15 yrd shot and the SO said it wasn't. I looked at the target and he got 5 down. Now 6 years later, he will bring it up at least once a year when we run into each other.. Hurt feelings can last a long time.. lol..

[steel1212]

That's all good Corey, but if its never been in the IDPA rules to have it then why stir up the pot of chitilla to get it.. Just walk up look at the target call it and move on. Yes there have been times where I called back a SO to relook at a miss or edge hit, and as a SO have been called back myself. In 12 years,I have had 1 target pulled and brought to me because a shooter said it was a double on a 15 yrd shot and the SO said it wasn't. I looked at the target and he got 5 down. Now 6 years later, he will bring it up at least once a year when we run into each other.. Hurt feelings can last a long time.. lol..

Pretty sure with this last update there are several things that weren't there before and now they are to supposedly make the sport better right?

[GmanCdp]

Corey, i'm not a stalker, but I have followed your videos, posts, for the "quest for greatness" as a shooter and you have conquered many, many, many things in the last 5 years, and I have the upmost respect for you, but try to get something like this into IDPA is not (probably)going to happen.. So you might as well run over to Rockcastle and climb the tallest hill you can find and scream it thru the valley below till you are blue in the face.. Usually I go and listen to these 2 songs to help out on subjects like this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KEHXjkopQ6k

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9COeT1Usow

peace..G'

[steel1212]

Corey, i'm not a stalker, but I have followed your videos, posts, for the "quest for greatness" as a shooter and you have conquered many, many, many things in the last 5 years, and I have the upmost respect for you, but try to get something like this into IDPA is not (probably)going to happen.. So you might as well run over to Rockcastle and climb the tallest hill you can find and scream it thru the valley below till you are blue in the face.. Usually I go and listen to these 2 songs to help out on subjects like this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KEHXjkopQ6k

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9COeT1Usow

peace..G'

Lol oh I know but a guy asked a why and quite frankly I haven't heard a good reason. Doesn't mean anythings gonna change. IDPA doesn't agree with me and several others on this thread. Doesn't mean we have to like it. :-)

[juan]

Corey, i'm not a stalker, but I have followed your videos, posts, for the "quest for greatness" as a shooter and you have conquered many, many, many things in the last 5 years, and I have the upmost respect for you, but try to get something like this into IDPA is not (probably)going to happen.. So you might as well run over to Rockcastle and climb the tallest hill you can find and scream it thru the valley below till you are blue in the face.. Usually I go and listen to these 2 songs to help out on subjects like this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KEHXjkopQ6k

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9COeT1Usow

peace..G'

Lol oh I know but a guy asked a why and quite frankly I haven't heard a good reason. Doesn't mean anythings gonna change. IDPA doesn't agree with me and several others on this thread. Doesn't mean we have to like it. :-)

Guys once you learn that IDPA is a liesure activity played on sundays

and very few are there to compete. overlays would not make sense to the masses.

those that are seriousl about competeing would like a more professional approach to scoring,

[BillR1]

Hurt feelings can last a long time.. lol..

Apparently... LOL

[fastarget]

I shoot both games, enjoy them for what they are and respect their rules the way they are written , they are different, and I am glad, I like variety..................and will enjoy each game I play for what it is.

I have ROed over 70 matches so far, my friends like to be on my squad because we have a good time and work well together, but no one gets preferences. In 7 years ROing in either sport, if I think " that is close" , I give it to the shooter.

Are there better ways to do things? sure. Does it stop me from enjoying trigger time? NO............was the million dollar prize cancelled? yes. Will one day be an electronic scoring target? probably..............will it end all controversy? I doubt it.

[Racinready300ex]

How about this? If I go to a sanctioned IDPA match, and I have a close shot could I keep a overlay in my pocket to protest my score with the SO?

I haven't read the new book yet, do the rules say overlays can't be used? Or does it just say if it's close give it to the shooter. Because my idea of close may be different than the SO's. Maybie I don't think it's close unless using a overlay I'm still not sure.

Could the MD decide "if it's to close to tell with a overlay then I consider it close and it goes to the shooter" Then have his SO's use overlays? I assume the MD is the one who has to determine what "close" really is.

[steel1212]

Over lays are NOT allowed in idpa

[GmanCdp]

Dated, but still good enough to look at. may answer several questions here..

http://necpl.com/images/pdf/IDPA%20Scoring%20for%20Dummies.pdf

If you look at that link, observe the following cautions:

In the “scoring for dummies” PDF, he seems to distinguish between “incomplete stage” and “stages not done” for DNF calculation. That’s not how I read the rule book. In either case, calculate both ways and give the better to the shooter (unless he refuses to shoot a stage, which is DNF for the match.)

Also, he mentions but does not explain FTN.

And there’s the thing about his take on radial tears (which is correct according to the 2001 book but not the current one).

And par time is not in the current rule book. He also seems to score a miss as five seconds down, when it should be five points down

Edited to say I copied and pasted above quotes..

Edited July 10, 2013 by GmanCdp

[Craig N]

I don't see why you all play a game you don't like. I don't like to play basketball so I stay off the court. And you can suggest, complain and bitch all you like it's not going to change anything. IDPA is a private company and the BOD is gonna do what the BOD wants to do. The rewrite of the rule book should have made that CLEAR.

[RammerJammer]

I don't see why you all play a game you don't like. I don't like to play basketball so I stay off the court. And you can suggest, complain and bitch all you like it's not going to change anything. IDPA is a private company and the BOD is gonna do what the BOD wants to do. The rewrite of the rule book should have made that CLEAR.

I hate the designated hitter rule. It is rediculous and is taylor made to keep the steroid freaks relevent in baseball. I'm a national league guy but we have interleague play. It is a sport not a religion. It is ok to not like a rule or many rules for that matter. It is ok to complain about that rule. Unless you wrote the rule book or it has some sort of deep emotional reason behind it why get upset and defensive when someone complains about it?