Weapon Abandonment DQ

[Alaskapopo]

Ive seen people getting DQed for abandoning a shotgun with rounds in the tube after getting a jam on the second to last round and thinking they ran it dry.

I hate DQ traps. With shotguns they really should change the rules to have it where if the chamber is empty the gun is empty. The match should not be about who can unload their shotgun the fastest to avoid a DQ.

Pat

Or you could apply the safety, which would have helped the guys in my example above as well.

I agree but some match designers stipulate the gun must be unloaded if your moving in front of the barrel. In these types of cases they have to unload the shotgun. Either way DQing someone for an empty shotgun hull in the gun is in my opinion is retarded.

Pat

Edited June 18, 2013 by Alaskapopo

[gose]

Ive seen people getting DQed for abandoning a shotgun with rounds in the tube after getting a jam on the second to last round and thinking they ran it dry.

I hate DQ traps. With shotguns they really should change the rules to have it where if the chamber is empty the gun is empty. The match should not be about who can unload their shotgun the fastest to avoid a DQ.

Pat

Or you could apply the safety, which would have helped the guys in my example above as well.

I agree but some match designers stipulate the gun must be unloaded if your moving in front of the barrel. In these types of cases they have to unload the shotgun. Either way DQing someone for an empty shotgun hull in the gun is in my opinion is retarded.

Pat

Yeah, you could even argue that a situation like that is even more safe than a gun that's abandoned "allegedly" with the safety on.

What would make sense (at least to me ) is that a gun that cant fire in its abandoned condition isnt a DQ. You could still stipulate the "On safe or completely empty" and maybe issue a procedural in cases where the gun is abandoned in a different but still safe condition.

Moving in front of the gun could (and should(?)) be mitigated by stage design...

Edited June 18, 2013 by gose

[Alaskapopo]

Ive seen people getting DQed for abandoning a shotgun with rounds in the tube after getting a jam on the second to last round and thinking they ran it dry.

I hate DQ traps. With shotguns they really should change the rules to have it where if the chamber is empty the gun is empty. The match should not be about who can unload their shotgun the fastest to avoid a DQ.

Pat

Or you could apply the safety, which would have helped the guys in my example above as well.

I agree but some match designers stipulate the gun must be unloaded if your moving in front of the barrel. In these types of cases they have to unload the shotgun. Either way DQing someone for an empty shotgun hull in the gun is in my opinion is retarded.

Pat

Yeah, you could even argue that a situation like that is even more safe than a gun that's abandoned "allegedly" with the safety on.

What would make sense (at least to me ) is that a gun that cant fire in its abandoned condition isnt a DQ. You could still stipulate the "On safe or completely empty" and maybe issue a procedural in cases where the gun is abandoned in a different but still safe condition.

Moving in front of the gun could (and should(?)) be mitigated by stage design...

I 100% agree with you on the stage designer should mitigate having people move in front of shotgun barrels. Its easy to clear a rifle or a pistol quickly but not so much tube fed shotguns. With my Saiga in open its easy but its a real drag for tac optics with a tube gun.

[toothandnail]

Stupidity like that is the main reason I only shoot outlaw match's.

The majority of the ABC matchs I've shot were either designed to penalize or DQ the shooters , NO Thanks

Oh, and one, where they told us to leave because one of the guys with us wore a tac vest

Didn't ask if he was a LEO or MIL , just said "we don't want that "tone" at our match"

Edited June 19, 2013 by toothandnail

[wgj3]

I went home once for dumping my 590 with the slide racked open/back (pump gun). I thought I had emptied it, but there was still a live round on the lifter. No way the gun was gonna fire without someone manually closing the pump action though...

It was completely safe, but not safe enough.

[Alaskapopo]

Stupidity like that is the main reason I only shoot outlaw match's.

The majority of the ABC matchs I've shot were either designed to penalize or DQ the shooters , NO Thanks

Oh, and one, where they told us to leave because one of the guys with us wore a tac vest

Didn't ask if he was a LEO or MIL , just said "we don't want that "tone" at our match"

Are you serious they did not like the tone of the tac vest. Its people like that who hurt the sport. We should be welcoming all shooters not just those we think are PC.

Pat

[toothandnail]

Stupidity like that is the main reason I only shoot outlaw match's.

The majority of the ABC matchs I've shot were either designed to penalize or DQ the shooters , NO Thanks

Oh, and one, where they told us to leave because one of the guys with us wore a tac vest

Didn't ask if he was a LEO or MIL , just said "we don't want that "tone" at our match"

Are you serious they did not like the tone of the tac vest. Its people like that who hurt the sport. We should be welcoming all shooters not just those we think are PC.

Pat

Yep, we couldn't believe it either , needless to say we won't be going back to that club again , there are always 3 of us that go together, sometimes up to 6

[Dave Gundry]

Devil's (or rulemaker's) advocate:

What would you do if a shooter got to the stage and on 'make ready' command racked the bolt/slide and an empty came out? In a USPSA match, that would be a DQ. This is essentially no different. This is done to have very clear and concise rules, and for that aspect I agree with the original call.

That said, if I was the RO, I would've let it go

Edited June 21, 2013 by Dave Gundry

[gose]

Devil's (or rulemaker's) advocate:

What would you do if a shooter got to the stage and on 'make ready' command racked the bolt/slide and an empty came out? In a USPSA match, that would be a DQ. This is essentially no different. This is done to have very clear and concise rules, and for that aspect I agree with the original call.

That said, if I was the RO, I would've let it go

You can abandon a loaded gun with the safety on. I think most matches would send you home if you showed up at a stage with your guns in that condition

[lmccrock]

This defies common sense and you know when rules get like this we have gone too far with the lawyer language.

Pat

More true than you know. To get insurance, sometimes the insurance lawyers write the rules.

[Blaise1]

I shot a club match a couple of weeks ago where the stage started with 2rds in a PG pump, open a door and engage two bonus clays, discard the pump and retrieve rifle. After the second shot I didn't rack the slide I just put the stage gun in the dump station, it had a spent hull in the chamber. Should I have been DQ'd? Would I have been sent home at a Major or USPSA 3 gun match?

On the same stage I heard a new rule too, "If you shoot a prop it's a DQ". I've seen this one when using cars or UTV's but I shot a wall made out of PVC with my SG, Oop's! Should I have been sent packing there too?

What's the verdict? I would like to know for future reference, I try not to waste ammo shooting props in the first place but the empty left in the chamber has me wondering.

[Onagoth]

thats a pretty bad rule. Completely defies the logic of the rule in the first place.

Edited October 3, 2013 by Onagoth

[CJW]

On the same stage I heard a new rule too, "If you shoot a prop it's a DQ". I've seen this one when using cars or UTV's but I shot a wall made out of PVC with my SG, Oop's! Should I have been sent packing there too?

As far as I am concerned the verdict is "poor stage design". The only prop DQ should be safety related and an MD should not (with very few exceptions, like shooting from a car, which is just too cool!) be putting an unsafe prop that close to the line of fire that it could easily be hit.

As for the stage gun issue, if anybody got DQ'ed for a spent hull, I think that is kind of bogus. An empty hull with a spent primer is not ammunition, so that was an empty gun. I also don't like "open action" dumps because they don't add anything to actual safety---only perceived safety, and if we were all happy with the mere appearance of safety, we'd all love TSA!

[lcambre]

Stupidity like that is the main reason I only shoot outlaw match's.

The majority of the ABC matchs I've shot were either designed to penalize or DQ the shooters , NO Thanks

Oh, and one, where they told us to leave because one of the guys with us wore a tac vest

Didn't ask if he was a LEO or MIL , just said "we don't want that "tone" at our match"

I've had a the opposite experience with outlaw vs. shooting under USPSA or other national groups rules. My last 3gun match was an outlaw match. My empty shotgun slipped out of the carrying case while moving to the next stage. I called one of the RO's over who then called the match director. I expected it to be handled like USPSA and every organization that I know of handles the situation. was shocked when even though I hadn't touched the gun I still got a DQ. After that no more outlaw matches for me unless it is run by someone I know I can trust not to be making up weird rules.

[waktasz]

That is weird. At any match I've ever been to I'd have put it back on the cart/back in the case and kept going, especially if it has a chamber flag

[MetropolisLake]

I agree but some match designers stipulate the gun must be unloaded if your moving in front of the barrel.

Sounds to me like designers need to design it to where an abandoned shotgun always points off to the side so you never have to run in front of the thing in the first place. That sounds safer and more logical than what has been described here.

Edited October 4, 2013 by MetropolisLakeOutfitters

[toothandnail]

That is weird. At any match I've ever been to I'd have put it back on the cart/back in the case and kept going, especially if it has a chamber flag

+1

[Chaser_2332]

Stupidity like that is the main reason I only shoot outlaw match's.

The majority of the ABC matchs I've shot were either designed to penalize or DQ the shooters , NO Thanks

Oh, and one, where they told us to leave because one of the guys with us wore a tac vest

Didn't ask if he was a LEO or MIL , just said "we don't want that "tone" at our match"

I've had a the opposite experience with outlaw vs. shooting under USPSA or other national groups rules. My last 3gun match was an outlaw match. My empty shotgun slipped out of the carrying case while moving to the next stage. I called one of the RO's over who then called the match director. I expected it to be handled like USPSA and every organization that I know of handles the situation. was shocked when even though I hadn't touched the gun I still got a DQ. After that no more outlaw matches for me unless it is run by someone I know I can trust not to be making up weird rules.

so a gun that had I assumed had been cleared on a previous stage slip out of a case in transit and you were DQ? That seams more than excessive.

[atomicferret]

Stupidity like that is the main reason I only shoot outlaw match's.

The majority of the ABC matchs I've shot were either designed to penalize or DQ the shooters , NO Thanks

Oh, and one, where they told us to leave because one of the guys with us wore a tac vest

Didn't ask if he was a LEO or MIL , just said "we don't want that "tone" at our match"

I've had a the opposite experience with outlaw vs. shooting under USPSA or other national groups rules. My last 3gun match was an outlaw match. My empty shotgun slipped out of the carrying case while moving to the next stage. I called one of the RO's over who then called the match director. I expected it to be handled like USPSA and every organization that I know of handles the situation. was shocked when even though I hadn't touched the gun I still got a DQ. After that no more outlaw matches for me unless it is run by someone I know I can trust not to be making up weird rules.

so a gun that had I assumed had been cleared on a previous stage slip out of a case in transit and you were DQ? That seams more than excessive.

What match did this happen at?

That is just silly.

[RiggerJJ]

I agree but some match designers stipulate the gun must be unloaded if your moving in front of the barrel.

Sounds to me like designers need to design it to where an abandoned shotgun always points off to the side so you never have to run in front of the thing in the first place. That sounds safer and more logical than what has been described here.

Stage designer foul!

A barrel should have been provided to abandon the shotgun MUZZLE DOWN so there is no question it is pointed in a safe direction regardless of the safety position. Also then the condition of it makes no difference as long as all of the provided ammo has been fired. Manuipluation of a safety switch on an unfamiliar gun should not have been part of the stage.

jj

[lcambre]

Stupidity like that is the main reason I only shoot outlaw match's.

The majority of the ABC matchs I've shot were either designed to penalize or DQ the shooters , NO Thanks

Oh, and one, where they told us to leave because one of the guys with us wore a tac vest

Didn't ask if he was a LEO or MIL , just said "we don't want that "tone" at our match"

I've had a the opposite experience with outlaw vs. shooting under USPSA or other national groups rules. My last 3gun match was an outlaw match. My empty shotgun slipped out of the carrying case while moving to the next stage. I called one of the RO's over who then called the match director. I expected it to be handled like USPSA and every organization that I know of handles the situation. was shocked when even though I hadn't touched the gun I still got a DQ. After that no more outlaw matches for me unless it is run by someone I know I can trust not to be making up weird rules.

so a gun that had I assumed had been cleared on a previous stage slip out of a case in transit and you were DQ? That seams more than excessive.

What match did this happen at?

That is just silly.

That was a local match in southern NH.

[mpeltier]

Gun abandonment rules are not so hot, but do appear to be very slowly getting better... I'm seeing a lot more "stage DQs" instead of trips home.

My problem is that many of these rules directly contradict the first of the "Four Rules". All guns are always loaded. Safety is achieved through where the muzzle is pointed and whether or not the trigger is pulled or in danger of being pulled.

Abandonment receptacles should be arrayed so that the shooter is forced to place the gun pointed in a safe direction. If the gun is left where it isn't pointed safely, stop and DQ. If it's pointed at a side berm, sandbag, or some other area where unshootable stuff isn't going to be, it doesn't matter whether it's loaded (because all guns are always loaded), or if the mechanical safety (which we're never supposed to trust) is on or off.

DanO

I hear what your saying, but the "Four Rules" typically refer to gun handling, as opposed to in this scenario, gun abandoning. In this example the op was considered safe with his shotgun until he grounded it and moved away, and somehow it magically became unsafe. Much of these abandonment rules just simply defy common sense. I would not have DQ'd this shooter no matter what the rules said. If I were challenged by anybody on that I would ask to be given specifically who was in any danger or what advantage the shooter got out of it. If that wouldn't suffice, somebody else would be welcome to Ro....

[Panic Flinch]

Wow...empty hull in chamber...DQ? Wow....defies logic. Especially since there are chamber flags made out of empty hulls. Too funny. I was at a match....rifles were on pegged rack. Competitor walks by and foot snags a sling.... a chamber flagged rifle gets pulled and falls from the rack onto the grass. RO is trying to DQ competitor who tripped on sling. I anxiously watched the tension. MD over ruled and said..."Put the rifle back on the rack and carry on". It was nice to see common sense prevail. Our sport does create some very interesting scenarios at the very least. Someday all these rules will get sorted out and the playing field will finally be level.

Here's a good one. FNH 3 Gun...two weeks ago. On a stage with a baseball diamond, shooter had to keep a foot on the bag while taking the shots. A very talented competitor who was missing both legs below the knee, removed his prosthetic, put his tennis shoe on the base and used his fake leg as a monopod! Classic, and a very moving moment for all of those of us who watched...but really, would you DQ the guy for using artificial support. I'm sure there are some RO's out there that would.

When all is said and done....I do agree with a level playing field for all, but at some point common sense has to play a role. Empty hull is not a dangerous condition worthy of a DQ.

[Dan Sierpina]

Stupidity like that is the main reason I only shoot outlaw match's.

The majority of the ABC matchs I've shot were either designed to penalize or DQ the shooters , NO Thanks

Oh, and one, where they told us to leave because one of the guys with us wore a tac vest

Didn't ask if he was a LEO or MIL , just said "we don't want that "tone" at our match"

I've had a the opposite experience with outlaw vs. shooting under USPSA or other national groups rules. My last 3gun match was an outlaw match. My empty shotgun slipped out of the carrying case while moving to the next stage. I called one of the RO's over who then called the match director. I expected it to be handled like USPSA and every organization that I know of handles the situation. was shocked when even though I hadn't touched the gun I still got a DQ. After that no more outlaw matches for me unless it is run by someone I know I can trust not to be making up weird rules.

so a gun that had I assumed had been cleared on a previous stage slip out of a case in transit and you were DQ? That seams more than excessive.

What match did this happen at?

That is just silly.

That was a local match in southern NH.

What club, so it can be avoided.

[Benelli Chick]

"Here's a good one. FNH 3 Gun...two weeks ago. On a stage with a baseball diamond, shooter had to keep a foot on the bag while taking the shots. A very talented competitor who was missing both legs below the knee, removed his prosthetic, put his tennis shoe on the base and used his fake leg as a monopod! Classic, and a very moving moment for all of those of us who watched...but really, would you DQ the guy for using artificial support. I'm sure there are some RO's out there that would."

I believe most rules are written calling it "external" support, and it wasn't external, it was part of his body!!! Maybe not all soft and squishy like my legs...and detachable, but part of his body none the less! We allow resting on elbows and knees and such...it was kind of his knee anyway!

I hope that even the most rule nazi type RO's would let it pass even if they read the rule differently...I'm not sure many could stand up and "own" giving a penalty for shooting off your prosthesis!!! At least I hope not! I know that most of the 3-gunners I know would boo and hiss and have a cow man!

Edited October 6, 2013 by Benelli Chick