Weapon Abandonment DQ

[outerlimits]

ok, just when i thought i'd heard of 'em all, i proved there is another way to go home early.

easy stage, 12 plates with shotgun, dump unloaded shotgun in barrel (more on that later), draw handgun and proceed forward to shoot 8 paper with pistol. the shotgun needed to be completely empty since you were going downrange of the abandonment barrel. IAC, i hit the plates one for one, burn the last shell where the last plate once was, dump the shotgun, grab pistol and hose the paper. ULASC, go back to shotgun and it ain't empty. wtf? yep, last round fired, bolt locked back and empty hull is still on lifter. dairy queen, here i come. so, unloaded means not even a spent shell in the gun. never thought of it but it made sense to me. but from now on i will take that extra second and make sure that last spent round is no where in the vacinity. live and learn.

[benny hill]

That rule sucks. No loaded rds is empty.

[stick]

That really sucks!!

[tohm]

I have seen some odd rules, that is really stretching the imagination.

[thegunnerd]

That is some BS!!!! If you want to be technical like Benny said, there is no loaded round in the gun. A hull is certainly not a loaded round. I'd have protested a whole bunch

[Dan Sierpina]

Was it run with USPSA safety rules? Dummy rounds are not allowed in the safety area, nor even an empty case. The DQ stinks, but, how, and what rules are used needs to be posted.

[blairmckenzie1]

Have you had that problem with your gun before?

[Lead-Head]

I have seen empty chamber indicators made from spent SG hulls and nylon lanyard. Well, maybe it was cut a little short, but still, just as harmless.

Edited June 10, 2013 by Lead-Head

[partyboy424]

That's a tough one, most of the clubs around here have just the "weapon must be empty or on safe" rule. Even if you will be running in front of the firearm and it's loaded, as long as it's on safe your golden. I don't trust safeties and always watch that last shell/round come out wether it's a loaded or spent round.

[Tacticalk9]

That's a tough one, most of the clubs around here have just the "weapon must be empty or on safe" rule. Even if you will be running in front of the firearm and it's loaded, as long as it's on safe your golden. I don't trust safeties and always watch that last shell/round come out wether it's a loaded or spent round.

Heck I shot a match a couple of weeks ago where you start in a car and my rifle was loaded, chambered on safe and pointed at my back from the trunk.So I think the "Must be empty to go in front of it non sense is bunk"

However in this case, the gun was neither on safe nor "clear"

[Ken_Bird]

Looks to me like the maker of some of these quality rules have way to much free time on there hands. I am the first one to beat the drum for safety. BUT.... part of being safe and handling a firearm also requires common since. In think of myself running a simular stage I also believe I would have the same problem. If I load eight and I shoot eight I never look when I barel the gun.JFWIW

[Mike P]

CS.

[Sgtsvi]

I have become paranoid after seeing all of the DQ's at Texas Multigun. I put my shotgun and rifle on safe every time I dump it now.

[chevyoneton]

I had a stovepipe last year on my last shot so did not bother to clear it before dumping the shotty in the barrel. I did however set the safety as is my usual routine. The RO had a little bit of a fit when I went to clear the gun but after seeing that the safety was on he let it go. As for going in front of the dumped gun, I would hope the barrel is situated such that the muzzle would not cover anybody down range in any event.

[dcloudy777]

Gun abandonment rules are not so hot, but do appear to be very slowly getting better... I'm seeing a lot more "stage DQs" instead of trips home.

My problem is that many of these rules directly contradict the first of the "Four Rules". All guns are always loaded. Safety is achieved through where the muzzle is pointed and whether or not the trigger is pulled or in danger of being pulled.

Abandonment receptacles should be arrayed so that the shooter is forced to place the gun pointed in a safe direction. If the gun is left where it isn't pointed safely, stop and DQ. If it's pointed at a side berm, sandbag, or some other area where unshootable stuff isn't going to be, it doesn't matter whether it's loaded (because all guns are always loaded), or if the mechanical safety (which we're never supposed to trust) is on or off.

DanO

[CJW]

The one real problem I have with treating the spent hull the same as live ammo is this. With a very few exceptions, matches do not require you to lock the bolt open on an empty dumped gun. That means the RO can not verify that you have left the gun empty until it is inspected after the stage. At that point, the shooter runs the bolt and the RO verifies that it was, in fact, empty. So, in this case, the post-stage RO inspection clearly shows that there were no live rounds in the shotgun, period. Never mind that a spent shell may look like a live round; a bolt closed also looks like a loaded gun but nobody gets DQ'ed for that.

This sounds to me like a case where the MD needs to decide why he made a certain rule. To my mind, it needs to be one of two things; either (1) the gun must be visibly empty to casual inspection (e.g., as the RO walks past headed downrange as the shooter continues the stage), which would mean bolt locked open and no ammo/shell visible, or (2) the gun must simply be proven to be unloaded after show clear.

So, unless bolt locked back was a requirement, I see treating a hull as a live round to be kind of ridiculous.

[Lead-Head]

Gun abandonment rules are not so hot, but do appear to be very slowly getting better... I'm seeing a lot more "stage DQs" instead of trips home.

My problem is that many of these rules directly contradict the first of the "Four Rules". All guns are always loaded. Safety is achieved through where the muzzle is pointed and whether or not the trigger is pulled or in danger of being pulled.

Abandonment receptacles should be arrayed so that the shooter is forced to place the gun pointed in a safe direction. If the gun is left where it isn't pointed safely, stop and DQ. If it's pointed at a side berm, sandbag, or some other area where unshootable stuff isn't going to be, it doesn't matter whether it's loaded (because all guns are always loaded), or if the mechanical safety (which we're never supposed to trust) is on or off.

DanO

This is dead on.

[Alaskapopo]

This defies common sense and you know when rules get like this we have gone too far with the lawyer language. The purpose of this rule is safety and an empty hull can't fire. The RO should have used common sense and not DQ'd you.

Pat

[Jadeslade]

Agree.

[Jesse Tischauser]

Somebody ain't doing it right. How do they know the empty hull didn't jump out of the barrel into your gun when u dumped it? Plus WTH kinda harm can a hull do?

Edited June 16, 2013 by Jesse Tischauser

[thegunnerd]

This defies common sense and you know when rules get like this we have gone too far with the lawyer language. The purpose of this rule is safety and an empty hull can't fire. The RO should have used common sense and not DQ'd you.

Pat

^+1

[EaZeNuTZ33]

A match to the west of KC has some odd abandonment rules in their matches....and one of the reasons I choose to drive 2.5 hours east instead of 35 minutes west for a match when they are both on the same weekend.

Their rules are unloaded.....no safe/empty chamber...but 100% unloaded. That isn't all that bad, except with the Benelli, that means burning rounds into the berm (and they get upset about that), or tripping the lever and racking each shell out. god forbid you get a couple doubles....the unload time kills you! I watched a shooter get a match DQ for barreling a SAFE shotgun on a stage where you do NOT move forward of the barrel. The same stage was designed to DQ people. You started with a hot shotgun and 6-7 targets, had to empty your shotgun, barrel it....grab your rifle from a different barrel, insert mag, load it, shoot 5 targets, unload, empty chamber, barrel back to the same barrel, draw pistol, fire, unload, ground empty with no mag, grab the rifle AGAIN, load with mag AGAIN, shoot 5 more targets. All the loading and unloading was the dumbest thing I've seen in awhile. Unsure when I will go back for their matches again.

[Alaskapopo]

A match to the west of KC has some odd abandonment rules in their matches....and one of the reasons I choose to drive 2.5 hours east instead of 35 minutes west for a match when they are both on the same weekend.

Their rules are unloaded.....no safe/empty chamber...but 100% unloaded. That isn't all that bad, except with the Benelli, that means burning rounds into the berm (and they get upset about that), or tripping the lever and racking each shell out. god forbid you get a couple doubles....the unload time kills you! I watched a shooter get a match DQ for barreling a SAFE shotgun on a stage where you do NOT move forward of the barrel. The same stage was designed to DQ people. You started with a hot shotgun and 6-7 targets, had to empty your shotgun, barrel it....grab your rifle from a different barrel, insert mag, load it, shoot 5 targets, unload, empty chamber, barrel back to the same barrel, draw pistol, fire, unload, ground empty with no mag, grab the rifle AGAIN, load with mag AGAIN, shoot 5 more targets. All the loading and unloading was the dumbest thing I've seen in awhile. Unsure when I will go back for their matches again.

I hate DQ traps. With shotguns they really should change the rules to have it where if the chamber is empty the gun is empty. The match should not be about who can unload their shotgun the fastest to avoid a DQ.

Pat

[CJW]

I hate DQ traps. With shotguns they really should change the rules to have it where if the chamber is empty the gun is empty. The match should not be about who can unload their shotgun the fastest to avoid a DQ.

Especially when, with an M2, all you have to do is rack the chamber clear and there is no way a new round can jump into firing position...

[gose]

Ive seen people getting DQed for abandoning a shotgun with rounds in the tube after getting a jam on the second to last round and thinking they ran it dry.

I hate DQ traps. With shotguns they really should change the rules to have it where if the chamber is empty the gun is empty. The match should not be about who can unload their shotgun the fastest to avoid a DQ.
Pat

Or you could apply the safety, which would have helped the guys in my example above as well.

Edited June 18, 2013 by gose