Who gets the DQ?

[CZinSC]

You are an RO/CRO/RM, take your pick, and you’re walking by the safe area. You observe two competitors, we will call them Competitor A and Competitor B. You notice Competitor B holding a gun, and then you watch him rack the slide, and you see a Snap Cap/dummy round come out. You then walk over to the competitors to DQ Competitor B citing rule 10.5.12. I think everyone will agree this is the correct call.

So now let’s add this twist. When you start speaking to the competitors, you find out that the gun that Competitor B racked the slide on, is in fact Competitor A’s gun. The Snap Cap/dummy round was already in the gun when Competitor A handed it to Competitor B and did not inform him of the Snap Cap/dummy round until the exact second he was racking the slide.

So who gets the DQ? Competitor B because he still “handled” dummy ammunition in the Safe Area? Competitor A because he had a loaded firearm ( Rule 10.5.13 ) ? Both?

[Steve RA]

I don't think a SnapCap/dummy ammunition meets the definition of ammunition as commonly thought of. But, what do I know ??

[ima45dv8]

I don't think a SnapCap/dummy ammunition meets the definition of ammunition as commonly thought of. But, what do I know ??

In a Safe area, it does.

[sperman]

Come on Mark. You can't chime in and not offer your opinion.

Here is the rule to apply the DQ, and yes, snap caps qualify.

10.5.12 Handling live or dummy ammunition (including practice or training rounds, snap caps and empty cases), loaded magazines or loaded speed loading devices in a Safety Area, or failing to comply with Rule 2.4.1. The word “handling” does not preclude competitors from entering a Safety Area with ammunition in magazines or speed loading devices on their belt, in their pockets or in their range bag, provided the competitor does not physically remove the loaded magazines or loaded speed loading devices from their retaining or storage device while within the Safety Area.

[Poppa Bear]

Either both or shooter B. If shooter B admits that A did not know about the snap cap then A did not have any intent to handle ammo in the safety area but was instead following good safety practices and ensuring the gun was clear. If it is shown that A knew about the snap cap then they both get the DQ.

Trying to DQ both if shooter A did not know about the snap cap would set a very dangerous precedent in that a dishonest shooter could arrange for a competitor to have ammo found on them in the safety area.

[CZinSC]

I thought I covered everything in OP, but I guess not. So let's try again.

Rule 10.5.12 Handling live or dummy ammunition (including practice or training rounds, snap caps and empty cases), loaded magazines or loaded speed loading devices in a Safety Area, or failing to comply with Rule 2.4.1. The word “handling” does not preclude competitors from entering a Safety Area with ammunition in magazines or speed loading devices on their belt, in their pockets or in their range bag, provided the competitor does not physically remove the loaded magazines or loaded speed loading devices from their retaining or storage device while within the Safety Area.

10.5.13 Having a loaded firearm other than when specifically ordered to by the Range Officer. (From the Glossary: Loaded Firearm . . . . . . . .A firearm having a live or dummy round in the chamber or cylinder, or having a live or dummy round in a magazine inserted in the firearm. )

My call would be that Competitor A is DQ'd per rule 10.5.13.

Still can't decide if Competitor B should be DQ'd per rule 10.5.12. He was not told about the snap cap prior to handling it so should he be responsible? On one hand he didn’t specifically ask, so maybe he is responsible because he didn’t check. But on the other hand, a fellow competitor shouldn’t be walking around with a dummy round in the gun, so is it safe to ass-u-me the gun is unloaded? By practice, we should always rack the slide of a gun handed to us to ensure the gun is unloaded ( I know I always do ), so it seems harsh to penalize Competitor B for practicing safe gun handling.

[Hatchet]

Shouldn't shooter A demonstrate that the pistol was unloaded before handing it to Shooter B? And should Shooter B take a pistol that hasn't been shown to have a clear chamber? I say they would both get the DQ.

[juan]

if a competitor drops a gun, gets a ro, also a shooter, to retrieve the gun and it has a snap cap in it.

should the ro also be dqed

[StraightUp_OG]

I think the key lies in the awareness of competitor B. Did you ask, in the course of conversation, about their actions? Did B know there was a dummy round in the chamber? If he did I would suggest that he also should be DQ'd. If B was not aware and A did not communicate that the gun had a dummy round in it then B should not be DQ'd.

Edited June 7, 2013 by StraightUp_OG

[MarkCO]

There are maybe two people in the world I would take a firearm from on their word it was clear, and it would not be in a match setting...the rest have to show me clear before I will touch a firearm. That is what I teach in class and that is what I teach my boys. Heck, they even teach that in hunter safety!

I would DQ both under 10.5.13.

[Nik Habicht]

There are maybe two people in the world I would take a firearm from on their word it was clear, and it would not be in a match setting...the rest have to show me clear before I will touch a firearm. That is what I teach in class and that is what I teach my boys. Heck, they even teach that in hunter safety!

I would DQ both under 10.5.13.

I'm with MarkCo -- there'd have to be truly exceptional circumstances for me not to dq both.....

[Sarge]

Both. I have DQ'd a shooter for racking a dummy round out of a gun at "make ready". So shooter A was carrying around a loaded gun and shooter B was handling a loaded gun for an instant before he handled ammo in a safe area. So maybe B gets DQ'd twice?

Edited June 7, 2013 by Sarge

[mactiger]

Both of them would be my call.

Troy

[Gary Stevens]

If shooter A admitted that he handed shooter B the gun, with the snap cap inserted, inside the safety area, then I would DQ both of them. If shooter A remained silent then I would not as I did not observe him "handling" the firearm.

You can certainly deduce that shooter A handled the gun, but if I were asked in an arbitration "did you actually observe shooter A handle a loaded gun in the safety area?", I would have to answer no.

[EEH]

I would DQ-both--why shooter A-new the gun was loaded-shooter B was a victom of circumstance's..same rule for both..

[Gary Stevens]

I would DQ-both--why shooter A-new the gun was loaded-shooter B was a victom of circumstance's..same rule for both..

You can testify as to what shooter a knew or didn't know?

[EEH]

I would DQ-both--why shooter A-new the gun was loaded-shooter B was a victom of circumstance's..same rule for both..

You can testify as to what shooter a knew or didn't know?

true--but it was his gun.

[spanky]

Both.

[38SuperDub]

Ok I'm playing devil's advocate.

Did you ever see Competitor A handling the gun with dummy ammo in the safe area?

How do you as an RO know that Competitor B didn't put the round in there?

If I'm sitting next to a guy and my gun falls off and HE picks it up - am I at fault? Do I get DQ'd?

I'm not sure BOTH isn't the right answer - just throwing out some whys

[Sarge]

If shooter A admitted that he handed shooter B the gun, with the snap cap inserted, inside the safety area, then I would DQ both of them. If shooter A remained silent then I would not as I did not observe him "handling" the firearm.

You can certainly deduce that shooter A handled the gun, but if I were asked in an arbitration "did you actually observe shooter A handle a loaded gun in the safety area?", I would have to answer no.

Mentor,

The original post says a handed the gun to b.

[JAFO]

I would venture to say that any experienced shooter that had a snap cap eject in a safe area would say they didn't know it was there. Otherwise they would have removed it prior to coming to the match. Once you forget about it, you don't consciously know it's there anymore. I don't think you can say that just because Shooter A says he didn't know it was in there means he's not at fault.

But Brandon makes a good point about the possibility that Shooter B put the snap cap in the gun. Suppose it's Shooter A's gun that he loaned to Shooter B, who is returning it to him (with snap cap) at the match? Like Sarge said, in this instance, the OP said Shooter A admitted to handing the gun to Shooter B, so both of them handled a loaded gun (per definition) in a safe area. But this seems to be a situation where the RO would need to ask some questions to determine if Shooter A gets DQ'd, as he can only attest to seeing Shooter B eject the snap cap.

As a side question, if someone shows up at a match and they realize they might have left a snap cap in the chamber, they can clear the gun in the Loading/Unloading area (if available) or approach a match official to clear them. But what if you went to the safe area and then realize it (assuming you have not uncased the gun)? Is that a DQ for 10.5.13, since the competitor didn't proceed immediately to a match official, per 2.5.2, or are they still OK unless they uncase and handle the gun?

[Gary Stevens]

If shooter A admitted that he handed shooter B the gun, with the snap cap inserted, inside the safety area, then I would DQ both of them. If shooter A remained silent then I would not as I did not observe him "handling" the firearm.

You can certainly deduce that shooter A handled the gun, but if I were asked in an arbitration "did you actually observe shooter A handle a loaded gun in the safety area?", I would have to answer no.

Mentor,

The original post says a handed the gun to b.

True enough. Excuse me as I drink a little back water.

If I had observed shooter A hand the gun to shooter B then obviously both are DQ'd.

However, if I turned around just in time to observe shooter B rack the slide and a snap cap come out, then I will revert to my previous answer.

That back water sure is refreshing

[EkuJustice]

Was the gun handed to the shooter cased or uncased and if in a case did shooter a remove from case or did shooter b

[CZinSC]

Was the gun handed to the shooter cased or uncased and if in a case did shooter a remove from case or did shooter b

Comp A handed the gun to Comp B. As Comp B was racking the slide to ensure he was holding a clear firearm, Comp A said "Oh yeah, there is a snap cap in there". ( Comp A did not clear the gun in Comp B's presence prior to handing it to him )

[dukduk]

Aside from the rule book, assume my carry gun is my match pistol also: where is a safe area for me to unload the firearm? In my vehicle prior to bagging it for competition?

Edited June 7, 2013 by dukduk