mactiger

As many have pointed out, there are so many things wrong with this statement it's hard to fathom. Contact me at dnroi@uspsa.org and I will see about setting up a seminar at your facility or very close by. We are actively trying to eliminate this club culture, "Level 1, ..." attitude, and your club seems like it could use some help, because you've got it bad. There is no requirement for the DQ to be called immediately, and the reasons for delay have been stated here. Troy

Just to clear things up: the match book has a couple of errors in it that we are aware of, and it will be corrected after this weekend, mostly due to the people who produce it being off for the weekend. The "range is closed" is not correct, and was probably cut and pasted from an old match by someone in the production of the book. I pointed it out yesterday, but it didn't get fixed before the book was published. The range will be open on the morning that staff begins shooting, Wednesday, May 5th. We will not be violating any rules, regardless if nobody shows up other than staff on Wednesday morning. I'd also like to point out that we have at least a half-dozen methods of getting in touch with someone in admin in USPSA and asking about things like this, rather than assuming something nefarious is going on, and making baseless accusations and assumptions. Nice job.

https://uspsa.org/documents/minutes/20181227 2019 Competition Rules Change Log-Final.pdf

The only provision for a DQ for shooting at a piece of steel is covered in 10.5.17. That distance is specified as "less than 23 feet". You can't disqualify a competitor for shooting at a metal target from any distance greater than that, period. There is no procedural, either. 2.1.3 spells out the minimum distance that steel may be placed from a physical barrier, such as a wall, (23 feet) or from a fault line (26 feet). Fault lines or "Steel DQ lines" placed within other fault lines to mark a minimum distance from a metal target are not legal. The suggestion to place another fault line OUTSIDE the existing fault lines to mark the 23 foot line is to help both shooters and staff know what is too close. This is sometimes used when competitors may want to run outside the fault lines from one position to another, but a piece of steel is visible from either location, or while transiting. Both of these rules are abundantly clear, anything else is a local rule and isn't legal in USPSA. DistancetoSteel.pdf

My email seems to be working fine now, but while I was in the Philippines, it didn't work so well. If you need to know that I got your email, put a return receipt on it. If I can't answer you right away, I'll at least click the button to let you know I got it. Some answers take longer than others, especially if they require thought or research, or if I'm busy with say, WSSC or Nationals. The volume of email I receive is high, and I don't usually take the time to say, "I got this, but you'll have to wait." Troy

Per recent board discussions, I will be retracting the unofficial permission to use couplers. That will take effect after this weekend, when notice of the change can be sent to all members via the news brief, USPSA web page, and Front Sight, along with social media sites. The board feels that following the pistol rules in this regard is the best way to go, and it makes sense to do so. While we don't want to stifle innovation in this division, we are shooting carbines in pistol matches. And, as I said in another post, this division is provisional and subject to change as we settle in. So, apologies for the decision on the couplers; I was not alone in thinking they would be OK, but other member input and board decisions have rendered them not legal for use in PCC. They are still legal in USPSA Multigun competitions. Troy

Gloves are personal equipment and are not regulated by the rules.

FYI, drum magazines are legal for PCC. There is no length or capacity limit, and that is by design. However, couplers will not be legal after this weekend. I'll be posting an amended appendix on the USPSA web page, and putting the information out in the next news brief and Front Sight editions. The board feels that we should follow the pistol rules with regards to where your magazines come from, and it makes sense to do so. Thigh rigs or tie down rigs will not be legal, either. Since this division is provisional, and growing, we can expect to have to make some changes on the fly. Hopefully, those changes are not going to be too restrictive--all the ones to date have been driven by member input as well. It IS a fun division to shoot, and people are wanting to be innovative with equipment. That's a good thing, but we are still playing with carbines on pistol courses, therefore, we will adhere to the pistol rules in all areas where it makes sense, and modify to allow for innovation and as many guns as possible in the game where it doesn't. Troy

The weight item mentioned in the CO appendix was a typo and has been corrected. The maximum weight limit for Carry Optics Division is 45 ounces. This was the weight limit used for the recently completed CO Nationals. http://uspsa.org/document_library/2016/APPENDIX D7_DNROI_2.pdf

There is no rule preventing counting a different number of shots per target or targets on a course of fire. The number of shots that count must be spelled out in the WSB.

I emailed MarkCO and explained that I was under the impression he was addressing a different problem at the MG Nationals. My mistake. I'm currently working the Area 6 championship and didn't look at the link he sent immediately. Neither the current nor the proposed USPSA MG rules address this situation directly or adequately, but that will be remedied. I'll work with Mike Pinto, the MG Rules committee chair, the board, and the instructors to come up with a rule that will cover both handling requirements and the penalties associated with not following those requirements.

First Production Nationals I ever shot, in 2010, there was a stage that said "all magazines must start on barrels, all reloads must come from barrels, and no magazine may be carried on the person at any time." I remember it clearly because I picked up two magazines from a barrel, reloaded with one, held the other one in my hand while shooting a couple of targets, reloaded with that last one, engaged the last targets, and got 5 procedural penalties for those last 5 shots because I reloaded from the magazine in my hand that I picked up from the barrel. I would have made 1st Master at my first Nationals ever (17th overall) without those five procedurals, and since the RM was called to the stage when I argued the procedurals and he upheld them all, I'm thinking that apparently the WSB can indeed specify not only that you can't use mag pouches, but also that you can't do anything other than pick up mags from barrels and put them straight into the gun. Don't know if the current DNROI would have upheld that, but DNROI at the time certainly did, plus it was a Nationals stage so I assume NROI looked at it. (And the current DNROI was also an RM at that Nats, I think.) Just as a point of clarification, if John made that call, he made it without consulting me. And, FWIW, I can't find a current rule that supports that penalty. In the 2008/"through 2010" version of the rulebook, (which would have been the one we ran the match under) there was no provision allowing in-the-hand carry under 5.2.4 as there is now. So, sorry about the bad call, but technically it should have been a move to Open under the rules in place at the time. There was a ruling made in 2011 covering carrying them in the hand--that would not have been in place for the 2010 Production Nationals. I've copied it below, FYI. But, even though I was there, I don't recall the problem, nor was I consulted on it. 3.2.1 and 5.2.4 put a lot of power into the WSB with regards to magazine placement and useage. How magazines are staged and used can be spelled out, but it must be specific and clear. Here's the ruling from 5/8/11: Rule 5.2.4 is interpreted to mean that when the equipment has to start with the magazines or speed loaders in retention devices attached to the belt, for those divisions that have position restrictions of holster and other equipment, they must be in compliance with Appendix D item 12, unless stipulated in the WSB that places them on a table or similar start and not in the retention devices for the start position. Further, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed loading devices carried in the hand after the start signal are not subject to the equipment position restrictions of Appendix D, Item 12.

No, he stated it was between 120 and 125, which is legal; also note the word "should". Of course, it didn't hurt that my gun was the official calibration gun for the match, and that the calibration ammo for it was made by me to be between 120 and 125 PF in that gun.

Gary and Jay are spot on with their decisions regarding this situation.

I don't recall a phone conversation where I ruled a stage illegal because it didn't have a large popper in it. All an all-steel stage has to have is one popper (any size or shape as described by the rule book), or a paper target. I'm sorry you were misinformed as to the legality of the stage, but I'm pretty sure that I didn't do it. It's possible my answer was misconstrued, but I really don't recall even being asked that question. Troy

OK, gents. Seems I made a mistake, and I hope we can all learn from it. One thing I learned is not to answer questions when I'm sitting in an airport without a rule book. In answering the question, I wasn't thinking about the AD being on the make ready command. While there are some instances where the gun can go off and not technically qualify as an AD, this wasn't one of them, due to the wording in 10.4.3, which states..."This includes any shot fired during the procedures outlined in Rule 8.3.1 and Rule 8.3.7", which would cover the gun going off after the Make Ready command. So, in this instance, a match DQ would be the correct call to make, even though the gun was broken. As stated before, there is no "Robby"/broken gun rule. If it discharges, it's on the competitor. (Emphasis is mine) That covers an AD, a shot fired while taking a sight picture, etc. Basically anything fired prior to holstering your gun and waiting for the Are You Ready command, and any shots fired after the If Clear, Hammer Down, Holster command is complete. I believe this brings the RMI corps back into alignment on this issue--totally my fault for spacing out about the circumstances surrounding this issue. Edited to add: Now the OP tells me that it was not on MR, but after the start signal. I either missed that originally or didn't have that information. At this point, I don't have a good answer to the question, because the gun firing was technically while loading, but I can see an argument for it being loaded (act of loading is complete and gun is in battery), and the shot not satisfying our definition of an AD. This will require some examination. I think most of us would stop the shooter and DQ under 10.4.3, because it's clearly not an intentional shot. I'm not sure that's covered in the rules as thoroughly as it needs to be. I think in this case, the competitor got a gift with the ribbon tied into a loophole. I'm going to work with the RMI corps to see what conclusion we can come up with. Sorry for any confusion.

FWIW, Mara didn't ask me about this before she posted. I learned about the discussion this afternoon from George W. She is correct, though, there is no order of engagement on this classifier. It was not shot in a specific order at Nationals. I do agree the course description could be cleaner. Sounds like a good project--writing wsb's for all the classifiers.

Even when I point to the rule, which, strangely enough, is in the rule book, it gets argued. I think it's pretty clear, you can have exceptions to the slide forward, hammer down unloaded start. What a waste of time.

You should read the last clause in 8.1.3, where it says "unless otherwise specified in the stage briefing", before you speak in absolutes, especially about turning your brain off.

I was there, and here's the story. I'm going to skip Brandon the middle man and just post it here, since it would end up here anyway. I know what the RM told me. I did not see the stage being run, or what happened when it happened. It's my understanding that the RM had been called to the stage to discuss the move to Open for the competitor, and was actually watching a competitor make ready, with his slide locked back, during the discussion. Before he could stop him, because the start position was not correct, the RO running the timer (I'm guessing the RM wasn't all that close) started him. According to the RM, he should not have been started at all, therefore his attempt at the course of fire was invalid, but it still raised the question of the 11 round mag in a prior run with the slide locked back. He told that competitor to stand by and found me and another RMI watching another stage. We discussed it and agreed with him that it was not a valid run, reshoots were required, and to leave him in Production due to the erroneous start. The logic was that the rule says "during" a course of fire, and the course of fire never should have happened with that start position. The competitor was never actually placed in Open division in the scoring system. The RM returned to the stage and informed the competitor of his decision and the squad of the requirement to reshoot, which they did. There were three total reshoots due to this. The WSB did not specify that the slide could not be locked back, and although slide fully forward is the default, I usually like to spell everything out. Keep in mind that this was the staff/vendor day of the match, and most of the staff were competing, and thinking like competitors, not RO's. It was a simple enough mistake, with a minimum number of reshoots required. I don't think a ruling is required, and I'm not inclined to issue one based solely on this scenario. What I will do is take it to the instructors and let them discuss it. It could be that not moving to Open was not the right call, but it was the call made at the time, for the reasons stated, and the rules are a bit muddy in that regard. When we come to a consensus, I'll post something, or put it in Front Sight. I agree that they could use some clarification, and plan to use it as a learning experience and teaching example. On another note, insinuating that the staff at this match was incompetent due to a simple mistake like this is way out of line. The staff at Area 4 were very competent, knowledgeable, safe, and contributed to a very successful match. Anybody that's ever worked as a Range Official has made a mistake or two; it's part of doing the job and how we gain experience. Mistakes are mistakes, big or small, and are part of the game we play.

Entries for the Area 4 match are now open at: https://clubs.practiscore.com/http-www-area4championship-com/register You may pay by check or credit card. Entry fee is $150. Squadding is open at the same time. We will use the same format as last year, Thursday for Staff and some competitors/vendors, All day Friday, All day Saturday, or 1/2 day Saturday/Sunday. I understand the Practiscore website may be having problems, so please be patient. I know the PS team is on the job. Troy

Wally worked many National and Area Championships, driving himself across the country to do so. He was one of the finest gentlemen I've ever had the pleasure to meet, and a true professional on the range. He will be sorely missed. RIP, Mr. Walker.

It's my understanding that the distance rules, (from the belt, in relation to the belt), as well as the no-tie-down stuff, came about to prevent the "gunslinger" image. I don't know that for a fact, however. Again, the RM has discretion here, and as long as the competitor is attempting to comply and can get close, it's usually not a problem. It's not a big problem anyway. As for refusing, not starting them is one thing. Unsportsmanlike conduct is another. Not advocating for either one, just saying.

At the risk of sounding cynical, can I say that every post here generates some sort of followup? This IS the Enos Rules forum, is it not? A poll of the NROI Instructors, including the DNROI, shows that it's always treated as an adjustment, not a move to Open, not a move to shooting for no score. What happens when someone can't get it within 2 inches? The answer is, they run with it like that, but it's extremely rare that the holster can't be adjusted to withing at least an overlay's width. Likewise, we all use an overlay as a rough gauge. Fellas, the rules allow the RM some leeway here, and I (and the rest of the NROI Instructor group) don't read the rules to say that it's a move to Open or anywhere else. That's about as plain as I can make it. I'm sure some of you disagree with that, and that's fine. Driving on now...

I'm not sure about running multiples; that may fall under the "special classifier match" portion of the policy, but you could run one Saturday and one Sunday each weekend, for sure. I can confirm the other if you give me a day or two. Troy