Should USPSA allow 8-shot minor in Revolver Division?

[Carmoney]

I'm looking to make revolver division more fun to shoot!

I like a challenge, but I think pulling all my fingernails out with channel-lok pliers would be more fun than shooting a friggin' K-frame with speedloaders at a major USPSA match. On the other hand, I really enjoyed running my 627 with minor loads at the WSS revo match last weekend. Man, it was fun!

If we can make Revolver more fun to shoot--then we have the potential not just to attract ICORE shooters, but everybody from all the different games and divisions.

[Bwana Six-Gun]

Rather than "discuss", I think the Revolver shooters of USPSA need to show USPSA that we want growth. The standalone Nationals with good attendance is one way (wish I could be there). Another might be to put a proposal before the Board on ways to encourage growth...

Okay, here is one idea..... Take a major match, and I think Sam Keen's Memphis Charity Challenge would be a great choice. Make a provisional rule change NOW for that match, say 7/8 shot minor. Advertise and promote it heavily, both by USPSA and by the revolver community Then after the match, review its impact. Then based on that impact, proceed. Either with a provisional rule change for all of USPSA or by returning to the drawing board.

I have been following this thread since the start and this is the best idea I have seen put forward yet. Have this provisional rule take effect after this years Nationals and run through next years Nationals. See what we come up with. I don't have an 8-shot and don't plan to acquire one, my 625's are just what I like and I think I can be competitive against an 8-shot most days even at my age (62). If they allow 8-shooters on a regular basis, it won't change things for me, I still like a 625 and am old-fashioned enough to believe that revolvers are supposed to be six shots. At my age I am in for the fun and comraderie anyway.

See everyone at the Nationals.

Pat DeBerry

[old506]

I think you guys one here who really believe in it should show up to nationals with an 8 shot revolver.

[BlueOvalBandit]

I would be happy even if they just changed the rules to mirror IPSC regarding the 7th+ shot being a procedural per shot as opposed to an express trip to open. At least with a procedural there's a chance to come back, open = game over, there's no chance.

I haven't figure out how to count to 6 yet

[slflr]

I am excited this thread has has received all the attention it has.

[AS350Driver]

I would be happy even if they just changed the rules to mirror IPSC regarding the 7th+ shot being a procedural per shot as opposed to an express trip to open. At least with a procedural there's a chance to come back, open = game over, there's no chance.

I haven't figure out how to count to 6 yet

There's also a chance the RO can't count, then no procedural.

[alecmc]

I would be happy even if they just changed the rules to mirror IPSC regarding the 7th+ shot being a procedural per shot as opposed to an express trip to open. At least with a procedural there's a chance to come back, open = game over, there's no chance.

I haven't figure out how to count to 6 yet

There's also a chance the RO can't count, then no procedural.

lol , very true.

I usually dont count 1,2,3,4,5,6 most the time. Typically - Target 1 , target 2, target 3 ( 2/2/2)

but most the time you get that " muscle memory " of just going for the reload after 6 shots without much thought into it. Habit.

Edited February 2, 2013 by alecmc

[Bubber]

Another option mentioned here was to make Revo minor only. That would mean the ease of reloading the 625 would remain and that the K and L frames would have a viable platform, Rugers included. At OKC we tried the 8 shot minor vs the 6 shot major and found that with the prevelant 8 shot arrays, the 6 shot had a large disadvantage. Over the course of the match it was not insurmountable though. It takes better planning on the 6 shots part and the 8 shot could not mess up anywhere or they will have been beaten. We had the offer out for a year but was only taken up on one match. I loaned a freind an eightshot and I shot one. With that being said I would love to shoot my ICORE gun more and would do so if the oppurtunity was available. Roger Davis

[JFlowers]

I don't think making Revo minor only would work... now that's just my opinion so take it for what it is worth. I think that would upset the applecart too far and many of the current shooters might leave.

This is why I think we need to implement a provisional rule and use a match like the MCC with good attendance to gather data. No one should "leave" since the rule would be just for that match, we would have lots of data, and we could see how 6Major/8Minor really compares. If we see it will kill things, we head back to the drawing board, if it create a good balance, we move forward.

[Matt Griffin]

I'm looking to make revolver division more fun to shoot!

I like a challenge, but I think pulling all my fingernails out with channel-lok pliers would be more fun than shooting a friggin' K-frame with speedloaders at a major USPSA match. On the other hand, I really enjoyed running my 627 with minor loads at the WSS revo match last weekend. Man, it was fun!

If we can make Revolver more fun to shoot--then we have the potential not just to attract ICORE shooters, but everybody from all the different games and divisions.

Now see, I think you might have just jumped the shark, because you're arguing from pure personal preference. I'm enjoying the heck out of my 686 practice but that's probably due to the new factor. Scientifically, what are the SSR vs. ESR numbers in IDPA? That should give us an idea of interest in a proportional sense.

[TGO]

You can already shoot 6 shot major or minor with .38/.357 using speedloaders. No one does it. No one will. I don't think we are truly trying to get someone who does not shoot IPSC at all to come in with a revolver. I feel the pool of shooters are those already competing in other organizations and divisions. That's who I'm trying to get.

The Stand alone Nationals will save revo in USPSA, just like the Single Stack Classic turning into the SS Nationals saved the 1911 SS for USPSA. When Limited was started it was assumed we'd all shoot SS 1911's we had laying around in that division. After the first 2 years, we did not. L10 was the next idea to save the SS 1911 in USPSA, most shoot 10 rounds in their limited guns now. SS getting it's own watch makes it important. Revo now has that. "Free at last, free at last, thank God almighty we are free at last".

I'm fine with however this turns out. I might even shoot minor 6 at the Nationals. Major hurts my hand!! However, if we want to get more people to shoot the division, I really do not care where they come from. They aren't going to be new shooters bringing old model 10's. It takes years for most shooters to build the character and self confidence to even try the revolver. The new guy shows up with a plastic bottom feeder that is probably legal in production but still loads it fully to MINIMIZE HIS RELOADING. He then looks at the open gun longingly and thinks how nice it would be to shoot that and NEVER reload!! He just sees it as how fast he can go, not how well he can place in any given division. Eventually they come around and see that SS and revolver are the best divisions. But he doesn't know that at first. It takes experience to develop that kind of class and taste. I say steal the shooters from other divisions and organizations. What do we need to do to make that happen?

[sbcman]

I'm looking to make revolver division more fun to shoot!

I like a challenge, but I think pulling all my fingernails out with channel-lok pliers would be more fun than shooting a friggin' K-frame with speedloaders at a major USPSA match. On the other hand, I really enjoyed running my 627 with minor loads at the WSS revo match last weekend. Man, it was fun!

If we can make Revolver more fun to shoot--then we have the potential not just to attract ICORE shooters, but everybody from all the different games and divisions.

Now see, I think you might have just jumped the shark, because you're arguing from pure personal preference. I'm enjoying the heck out of my 686 practice but that's probably due to the new factor. Scientifically, what are the SSR vs. ESR numbers in IDPA? That should give us an idea of interest in a proportional sense.

I don't know the exact numbers, but there are far more SSR shooters in IDPA than ESR shooters. My most unscientific guesstimate would be at least 15/1 ratio.

Word from a long time IDPA revolver shooter is that prior to the 05 split into SSR/ESR, most guys shot moonclip revolvers. After the split, the SSR numbers skyrocketed over ESR. Nobody knows exactly why. I suspect some guys just love picking up brass.

Edited February 2, 2013 by sbcman

[old506]

One day I will sit down in front of the tv, turn the dvr to Shooting USA and be able to watch Rob and Jerry shoot against each other with a revolver. No way do I want one shooting an 8 shot and the other a 6 shot.

I too think a separate, stand alone nationals is the way to go. Maybe that by itself is the way to draw in those die hards that haven't showed up to USPSA. We shall see......

[TGO]

. . . but then again. Looking at it another way, in the context of the day, it's a terrible idea. You'll bring in some ICORE diehards, sure, but you're locking out anyone who doesn't already have a 627, and Smith will be years before they stop stamping out M&Ps to meet demand. It's a heck of thing to try and increase participation when the one and only competitive gun is going to run you $1,000. Why not do like ICORE and just recognize a speedloader award at matches, and force it to be minor-6? If there's an argument for 8-shot guns then there is 10x the argument for speedloader .38s. You can go to J&G and buy them by the basket for $300 each, and you bring in Ruger, Taurus, Chiappa, Colt, every other wheelgun maker in the world.

Matt, are you sure? that was the quickest flip/flop I've ever seen! You could probably be a politician... seriously though, I respect your opinion. I suppose if I could reload as fast as you I wouldn't want any change either. Then again maybe I do.... No, no, never mind, I wouldn't... maybe.... Id'd put a funny smily face in here now if I new how to do it. Where are my kids when I need them?

What if this change means somehow we all beat Jerry? Huh, Huh????

[TGO]

I'm looking to make revolver division more fun to shoot!

I like a challenge, but I think pulling all my fingernails out with channel-lok pliers would be more fun than shooting a friggin' K-frame with speedloaders at a major USPSA match. On the other hand, I really enjoyed running my 627 with minor loads at the WSS revo match last weekend. Man, it was fun!

If we can make Revolver more fun to shoot--then we have the potential not just to attract ICORE shooters, but everybody from all the different games and divisions.

Now see, I think you might have just jumped the shark, because you're arguing from pure personal preference. I'm enjoying the heck out of my 686 practice but that's probably due to the new factor. Scientifically, what are the SSR vs. ESR numbers in IDPA? That should give us an idea of interest in a proportional sense.

I don't know the exact numbers, but there are far more SSR shooters in IDPA than ESR shooters. My most unscientific guesstimate would be at least 15/1 ratio.

That makes sense. IDPA is mostly minor caliber oriented. You get nothing for shooting major. BTW, Speedloaders aren't that much slower than moon clips. I'd shoot minor speedloaders rather than major moonclips if scored the same any day!

Thanks for the input. I like speedloaders.........

[AS350Driver]

One day I will sit down in front of the tv, turn the dvr to Shooting USA and be able to watch Rob and Jerry shoot against each other with a revolver. No way do I want one shooting an 8 shot and the other a 6 shot.

I too think a separate, stand alone nationals is the way to go. Maybe that by itself is the way to draw in those die hards that haven't showed up to USPSA. We shall see......

For now you can record Hot Shots, and see Jerry going up against Matt Griffin.

I like the discussion going on here. I have yet to shoot a match with revolver, waiting on the gun, but I can't wait.

[Blueridge]

I am outside the norm I guess. I use a Ruger Alaskan shooting 45 Colt and use it in IDPA &USPSA. After I competed in the 2011 Memphis Charity Challenge on Saturday I shot the Sunday club match with my Ruger, but shot Production division. I intend on making C class in Production using my Ruger just to see if I can do it. I won't stop shooting revolver division, but any chance that I get I'll be shooting classifiers with my revolver in production division.

I would love to shoot my revolver in production division at a match that did not recognize revolver division. I don't expect that I would finish close to the top of the standings (top ten), but I don't expect that I would come in in the bottom ten (maybe not even the bottom fifteen) either.

Shooting revolver is the biggest challenge I believe and watering it down just so it is easier to handle the eight shot arrays is counterproductive to me.

[Rogan]

if we want to get more people to shoot the division, I really do not care where they come from. They aren't going to be new shooters bringing old model 10's. It takes years for most shooters to build the character and self confidence to even try the revolver. The new guy shows up with a plastic bottom feeder that is probably legal in production but still loads it fully to MINIMIZE HIS RELOADING. He then looks at the open gun longingly and thinks how nice it would be to shoot that and NEVER reload!! He just sees it as how fast he can go, not how well he can place in any given division. Eventually they come around and see that SS and revolver are the best divisions. But he doesn't know that at first. It takes experience to develop that kind of class and taste. I say steal the shooters from other divisions and organizations. What do we need to do to make that happen?

Robb, you hit the nail on the head. USPSA places more emphasis on the speed portion than the accuracy portion. Whats the biggest killer to speed? Having to reload. And with a 6 shot revo, just when you get warmed up with your shooting, oops/dang it, gotta reload. On a given stage the revo shooter spends as much time reloading as he does shooting. For the new guy that wants to shoot, it's not as fun to reload as it is to shoot.

Is there a way to put more emphasis on the accuracy part and still keep it fun without turning into a bullseye match?

[Cd662]

If we're trying to recruit from IDPA, a lot of those folks don't like USPSA. Going from a dictated and generally linear stage to one with a lot more shooting, moving, and thinking is not for everyone. Similarly, ICORE has more of a USPSA feel with its frestyle shooting but at least in my area, there already is a very thin ICORE population and many of those usual suspects are the ones shooting IDPA SSR, ESR, and USPSA Revo.

I think you're wrong here. Most wheelgunners shoot wheelguns in any discipline they can shoot them in. Yes, it's a different game with different rules but you adjust and shoot.

To clarify, I'm saying I think most revolver shooters into action sports shoot across boundaries in multiple discpline. That having been said, in GENERAL (not strictly speaking about revolver shooters) I don't know if the "majority" of IDPA shooters are interested in USPSA. From what I gather, the general IDPA shooter who is not a multi-discipline action shooter is interested in IDPA for specific reasons, and those aspects of the game are not present in USPSA or ICORE because of the freestyle and sporting element. I can easily see a "social' level IDPA SSR or ESR Marksman or Sharpshooter wanting no part of dealing with field courses. It's a lot of work.

Edit:

"That makes sense. IDPA is mostly minor caliber oriented. You get nothing for shooting major. BTW, Speedloaders aren't that much slower than moon clips. I'd shoot minor speedloaders rather than major moonclips if scored the same any day"

You need to give me some speedloader tips. My only moonclip experience is with 38 moonclips, but I felt like my reloads were definitely faster than speedloaders. More importantly, the risk factor was greatly diminished. If you're a tenth of a second too fast on reload sequence, you get that dreaded case under the extractor star. Now you have to hit the ejector rod again and repeat part of the reload sequence. If the case gets completely stuck and does not extract, you're 100% hosed, game over, while you sit there holding the star back trying to fish the case rim out with your finger. A crack in the case mouth also hangs up the extraction (I mean, I know you know this, I'm just saying for any other interested observors) so you need to have a sufficiently strong "manual override" for that sort of situation. I find getting an acceptable reload with speedloaders while moving is a matter of pure luck, so moonclips have the advantage there as well.

Rogan - USPSA is it's own game, it's evolved over time and it is what it is. If a course designer puts up tricky shots, then it absolutely rewards accuracy. I think there's already some degree of an accuracy requirement with the 6 shot standard because it may not be worth reloading to make up a shot - the only real opportunity is when you have an uneven amount of shots in the gun and happen to have leftover ammo to take makeups. Like SeanC mentioned, you're adding on 2 seconds every time that gun opens up.

Edited February 2, 2013 by Cd662

[Dragon11]

Even though it needs to be tested, and should be tested, I don't think six shots versus eight shots is going to be competitive. My gut tells me that with the intro of the eight shots it will turn into a 627 game, I might be wrong, but thats what comes to mind. I personally don't want to cause anyone to pull there fingernails out, don't want to see it and I don't want that on my conscious.

I agree that even with a rule change making it more appealing for new shooters to come into the sport, you won't see alot of that in revolver. To go on the record, I don't think creating two divisions will work with the limited number of revolver shooters, this opinion has already been voiced. Having said all of that, my thought, and others thoughts of making it minor across the board would at the very least make the system simple, and easy enough to do if the decision were to be made, which is a start. Being a predominant 625 shooter, the idea of dropping it down to minor and shooting will not turn me away from the division, and I don't think that others will be turned away from this idea either, whether you shoot a 625 a 610 or anyting else. Until this discussion was started I had never thought of shooting my 625 in minor, I have never done it. But now that I think of it, I think it would be alot of fun and would easily make the change.

There is no easy answer to all of this. I don't personally have any idea for bringing in IDPA, ICORE and current division shooters with all of there gear, and also eight shot revolvers, while still making it competitive for all of them in one division. I will be at the nationals with my 625. If they want to let eight shots in for the game I'm in, and we'll let the chips fall where they fall. On a side note, is this a record for the most posts being posted after a discussion has been started, in this short of a time span?

Ed Savard

Edited February 2, 2013 by Dragon11

[Ty Hamby]

This is anecdotal but John Bagakis won L10 with a 627 shooting minor at the 2011 USPSA Golden Bullet Level II match.

At the 2012 IRC Josh Lentz with 6 round speedloaders (classic), beat John Bagakis with 8 shot moon clips (limited), John Bagakis also won Limited division in that very same match. So with six shot arrays, it is possible to win with speedloaders loaded with 6 rounds. I know USPSA wont change the 8 shot arrays but I would be interesting if there was 6 shot arrays at a match that required 6 shot guns. The cream will always rise to the top and it doesn't always need to be a fair fight. The best is the best for a reason.

[Chills1994]

Here's another thread on the exact same topic:

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=134425&hl=%20627&st=0

seems like threads I post in get locked down. I hope it isn't the case with this thread.

Brad S.

[pskys2]

I would be happy even if they just changed the rules to mirror IPSC regarding the 7th+ shot being a procedural per shot as opposed to an express trip to open. At least with a procedural there's a chance to come back, open = game over, there's no chance.

I haven't figure out how to count to 6 yet

There's also a chance the RO can't count, then no procedural.

Yea, but another competitor might, or in most cases it probably wouldn't be of any great help. And I guarantee if someone did it on a regular basis it would catch up to them and bite them.

[pskys2]

Rob given a choice I'd bet Jerry would use his 8 shooter. He has been heard lamenting the pounding his hands take from major. And didn't the last mag ban have a bit to do with L10? But SS Classic did keep the 1911 until USPSA dove in. But even now SS struggles at Area Matches compared to the big 3.

Someone mentioned using speed loaders.

You run into the issue that there aren't many selections of the good, fast speed loaders and they are for the K and L frames.

Without them there is no way a speed loader is as fast as a moonclip. With them they can be fast, but still a few points off, Bubber is the expert there.

Just as someone starting in SS will get maybe a stock 1911 for a while, they will end up upgrading it if they stick with the game. And upgrading a 1911 will run at least equal to moonclipping a Revo. Or buying a 1911 premium, where you shouldn't have to do much, is about the same as a PC or quality 8 shooter.

I've contacted my local clubs about doing it here, to see if I can get some data and maybe more competition.

There are other options for Large Caliber 6 shooters, I made M with a 4" M29 seemed to degress with a 625, it's just the Smith .45acp was the cheapest and efficient option. But Smith in all their wisdom ended that for now. Now if someone wants in new they have to hit the used market.

Edited February 2, 2013 by pskys2

[No.343]

I agree that something should change in the revolver division. Unlike some of you I am convinced that the eight shot will make six shooters obsolete. I don't have a problem with that. I would consider it progress. After all this is supposed to be a race. I hear folks say that we should make a provisional rule and evaluate results. Evaluate what? What is the empirical data that will be analyzed? I don't think that it is fair to compare John shooting a six shooter versus Steve shooting an eight shot. I think we should have a two day match where each competitor shoots a six shooter one day shooting major and an eight shot shooting minor the other day. I think it would be interesting if we could have all classes represented as well. I think it would be very important to make sure that the course designer did not try to make the stages "revolver friendly". Perhaps using random stages from previous Area or National matches would make for realistic stages that we are all likely to encounter. After that we would have data to convince all of us, or at least me, about the arms race issue that bothers some folks. Perhaps it would be interesting to schedule a meeting to discuss this during the revolver nationals with Phil and BOD members. We have a few vocal folks on this forum, but we certainly don't have 90 people on this thread voicing ideas and opinions.