BritinUSA Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 (edited) I think its an opportunity for USPSA to get ahead of the curve on what could become a significant market. At least two gun manufacturers are already making guns that are pre-milled for slide mounted red-dots, we could wait a few years for the market to grow and risk losing those buyers to another shooting sport or we can provide an opportunity for them to compete against similar 'factory guns'. Edited July 8, 2014 by BritinUSA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trgt Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 I think its an opportunity for USPSA to get ahead of the curve on what could become a significant market. At least two gun manufacturers are already making guns that are pre-milled for slide mounted red-dots, we could wait a few years for the market to grow and risk losing those buyers to another shooting sport or we can provide an opportunity for them to compete against similar 'factory guns'. ^^^ agreed. Also, green lasers are very bright and daylight friendly and another viable option for this division, which for a few hundred puts anyone with a tactical rail on their gun into the fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 LASERS TOO!! This needs to just be called "all others" division. I think our local steel match does something like this called "garbage division". Basically any gun that does not have a true home in the already established divisions. I say let them have at it. For no score of course.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trgt Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 LASERS TOO!! This needs to just be called "all others" division. I think our local steel match does something like this called "garbage division". Basically any gun that does not have a true home in the already established divisions. I say let them have at it. For no score of course.... I get that administering matches and divisions is not trivial. But there's no reason optics (red dot/laser) should be tied to race guns and compensators to play. But if mentioning laser derails the conversation, forget I said it. Someone will figure this out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 I'm a huge fan of a Production Optics Division, no other changes , just now allow an optic like Open ,,,, but a laser? Really? I can't image trying to write a set of rules to allow lasers on our guns ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhunter Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 No lasers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fiddler Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 Does anyone know if S&W will sell me a CORE slide for my 5" Pro 9? I'll start shooting Prod-Open now and move to Prod-Optics when/if it becomes a division. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 (edited) What exactly is the Prod-Open division? Edited July 10, 2014 by Nimitz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 What exactly is the Prod-Open division? Shoot the Production/Optics gun in Open division (scored as Minor of course). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bikerburgess Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 Does anyone know if S&W will sell me a CORE slide for my 5" Pro 9? I'll start shooting Prod-Open now and move to Prod-Optics when/if it becomes a division. and here is why I hate the idea of basing a division on production rules, I am going to go out on a limb (really I am not a SW expert) and bet that the core slide is not externally identical to the one that came on your 5" pro 9 with the only difference being the sight cut? thefore based on production rules the gun would not be legal and you would be shooting open anyway. if everyone wants a 10rd minor division for guns with dots and lasers the last place we should start is with production. how about we set a total weight limit (like Single stack plus a few oz) say no comp no magwells 140 mm mag limit (that way we can use the gauge we have) 10 rd minor 8rd major (why should there a production optic and not a SS optic?) sighting system is un-restricted (light, laser, red dot, radar, death ray, whatever) the we get a division that is easy to officiate and easy to decide if your gun is legal in. it would be more inclusive and if there are shooters out there waiting for PO they wont finally show up and find out that the stippling job they did on that little spot where your thumb goes puts them into the dreaded Open division anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 No lasers Why not? To use one of your arguments for creating the division -- flashlights and lasers are perfectly acceptable on "house guns." Perhaps more so than a red dot sight..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fiddler Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 Does anyone know if S&W will sell me a CORE slide for my 5" Pro 9? I'll start shooting Prod-Open now and move to Prod-Optics when/if it becomes a division.and here is why I hate the idea of basing a division on production rules, I am going to go out on a limb (really I am not a SW expert) and bet that the core slide is not externally identical to the one that came on your 5" pro 9 with the only difference being the sight cut? thefore based on production rules the gun would not be legal and you would be shooting open anyway. Yep. I would be shooting Open. By the time Production/Optics actually becomes a division there will undoubtably be newer cooler pistols and optics on the market. If I want to I'll get one of those. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhunter Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 No lasersWhy not? To use one of your arguments for creating the division -- flashlights and lasers are perfectly acceptable on "house guns." Perhaps more so than a red dot sight..... Go for it then, I cede to my earlier comment Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Antichrome Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 No lasers Why not? To use one of your arguments for creating the division -- flashlights and lasers are perfectly acceptable on "house guns." Perhaps more so than a red dot sight..... Exactly. And so are full-cap and extended mags...and ports or comps too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 No lasers Why not? To use one of your arguments for creating the division -- flashlights and lasers are perfectly acceptable on "house guns." Perhaps more so than a red dot sight..... Exactly. And so are full-cap and extended mags...and ports or comps too. Yeah, but there's already a division for that...... I think we call it open, and I may have shot it a time or two with a laser and flashlight equipped G19..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OUshooter Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 Yep, Open Division is fine if you have a few thousand dollars just sitting around doing nothing. I know you know better than this, and I know you've seen > 2k production guns. PO means there will be 1 platform that dominates, just like open. My glock has shipped some very nice 2011, and I've had my butt whipped by bone stock cz. Bottom line.... You want a dot shoot open. Our sport growth is tied so closely to political will that we are afraid to express that fact, here especially. The technology card has no weight. Until rail guns are hand held that is. The top dog gun in open and limited are basically the same as they were 100 years ago. The technology to build and improve them is much better but the basics haven't changed. This topic is boring me to no end, this is my last post on PO. Carry on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trgt Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 (edited) I’ve re-read a lot of the comments, and can easily see myself arguing either position AGAINST) Not needed - this is anticipated and addressed by “Open” classFOR) Desired as extension of “Production” - to allow folks to make an optics upgrade, without otherwise bumping participant into Open. I’m almost back to ‘against’ because I can come up with arguments for many classes, and can see how this turns into a nightmare- Production Optics (minor only) - let folks who can’t see add a RDS, many of us are getting old and can't see, but don’t make me load 9mm major and run a comp, let me be competitive with store bought ammo- L10 Optics (minor/major) - I want a magwell and or SA trigger, and almost 30% of us in the US live in states with magazine restrictions, but I can no longer see- Limited Optics (minor/major) - I’ve got a nice limited gun and don’t like changing mags, but I can no longer see… what a mess I wonder if something new, a 'spec' division like Single Stack would be better as a trial for this, rather than an extension off production Call it "Stock Optics" or "Optics Minor" (can't use word 'production' because of our meaning of that - IDPA-like spec for gun rather than production list - 10 round so as to be inclusive of full US - 9mm minimum or other calibers min 125PF, Minor power factor only scoring - ? Magwell OK since we reload so much (like Single Stack, but not sure about the box since the optics make it bigger) - ? SA OK - then we can get folks using safety instead of manually de-cocking their CZs - RDS or laser optic enhancement (since we are target focused 100%, shouldn't matter if red dot or laser, no?) (and last few points really should get equipment sponsors happy - we're focused on retail bolt on parts, not a gunsmithed work of art like limited and open Guns) Just a thought .... Edited July 12, 2014 by trgt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gose Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 Production optics won't be low cost. You will see the same purpose built production guns with expensive optics on them. A nice tuned CZ with an RMR milled into the slide will cost more than an Edge. Let's at least be honest about this point. Or how about a tuned Stock 2/3 or Sphinx? It would only be a matter of time until the guns used by the top shooters in this new division cost almost as much as a "real" open gun. A guy with an OOB S&W core is going to be at a prety decent disadvantage against one of those tuned production optics racers, so what are we gaining by adding a new division? He might be slightly less disadvantaged compared to a full blown open gun, but he'll still be disadvantaged. is it really worth having a new division so that he can be slightly less disadvantaged than he would be in Open? I'm sure it wouldnt be long until people shooting Cores would start complaining about the $3k+ raceguns showing up in this new division. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torogi Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 Just bring back modified division. As long as it fits the box. If this new division, production optic division, is driven for aging eyes, then you gotta force to put a minimum age or requirement to fit the new division. Without such restriction, imagine the top 30 open division guys and shooting prod optic one match day and then one just realize its not any different from Open Division. To shoot open division, you don't need 3-4k race gun. One doesn't need to shoot major either. But, to be competitive, is one whole other topic. I suggest seeing a good eye doctor. If you are in my area, PM me for referrals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 Production optics and open are not the same thing ... Major vs minor ... This is huge 10 rds vice whatever fits in the mag Comp vs no comp Porting vs no porting Race holster vs no race holster Do anything you want to the gun vs not Etc The entire point of PO is to leave everything about Production the way it is but now allow for an optic I would be fine with an open minor division instead BTW ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gose Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 Major vs minor ... This is huge Then get a CORE in .40 or put a dot on your Glock 35? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 Why would I do that? I already own a perfectly good 9mm for Production. The whole point of this new division is simply to allow an optic and change nothing else. If I wanted to shoot a .40 I'd go to limited. If I wanted to shoot major and use a comp and everything else I'd shoot open ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torogi Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 I could see the point.. i dont see anything wrong with a production roster gun, with an optic, shooting minor, standard mags, behind the hip (non-race holster and pouches), no magnet set-up... in open division. I would agree that open and PO isn't the same thing. But open covers whatever you want in PO. Obviously its not competitve. But if the point is to slap an optic to a production gun, hey, welcome to open. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 I don't know about others, but my point would be to be able to slap on an optic and remain competitive. Otherwise I'd just take my STI Steelmaster with it's 101 PF loads I use for open Steel Challenge division and shoot open USPSA ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 I don't know about others, but my point would be to be able to slap on an optic and remain competitive. Otherwise I'd just take my STI Steelmaster with it's 101 PF loads I use for open Steel Challenge division and shoot open USPSA ... Until you have to pass chromo anyway...... Shooting for fun, not so much fun..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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