Production optics

[Chris iliff]

I was amazed at the number of slide mounted red dots at the PA Steel Shootout. I think it would be a viable division.

Yep, the number of CC is increasing too. This is the newest trend and it's only going to increase in popularity.

I am with you, this is going to be very viable! I have been vocal for this division for awhile and will continue to do so. I want USPSA to continue to be the cutting edge in shooting competitions, leading the way.

I think this division would be a huge win win.

Edited May 29, 2014 by Chris iliff

[cnote]

Magazine capacity, then the dot, comp and major. Taking one or two reloads off the clock is certainly a bigger factor than the dot. Go look at classifier scores for the top dogs and a normal C class shooter who shoots both Open and Production...the difference is not more than one reload.

Edited May 29, 2014 by cnote

[cnote]

.

Edited May 29, 2014 by cnote

[bikerburgess]

There certainly is a place to shoot the production optic, as motosapiens points out. Going on ten years in the sport and achieving almost all my goals, I will probably shoot this in OPEN division at some point. I know I could talk some of my friends into the adventure.

But, that is not the same, not even close, to getting the owners who already have these types of guns in the safe and the CC crowd to come out and play.

Kinda hard to sell the endeavor to these shooters by saying, "yeah, not really a division for you per se, but we will just stick you in with the OPEN shooters, come on out!"

IMHO that's just not going to be that productive. Under those conditions I don't see a bunch of growth.

Hence my "If you build it, they will come" approach.

Also, I just don't see it being that difficult to set up. A lot of "what if's" blah, blah, blah. Get bantered around and tend to bog the issue down for no reason.

It's Production, it's production rules, it's a slide mounted optic, if something like weight or box seems hard, strike it from this divisions rules. It doesn't have to be hard, in fact, keep it simple.

The gun is on the production list, it has a slide mounted optic, your holster and belt and pouches are the same as for production. Very simple. Why try to bog it down with boxes and weights of guns? That's just ridiculous stuff bogging it down for no reason.

It's fairly easy to implement, if you use common sense.

Common sence is a great idea but how exatily you wright it down in the rules is what people will do.

No box great my mags will all have 140mm extensions for easier loading. Then you say no extensions and everyone will complain because they cant use the same mags they use in production.

No weight then my grip plug mag extensions and enythingbelse I can find to replace will be brass or tungsten to help controll recoil. saying you want simple doesnt mean it will stay that way unless you wright a rule set that mandates it.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-T217A using Tapatalk

[Flexmoney]

While there is no such thing as a provisional division in USPSA...

Local Steel Challenge matches are specifically allowed to run customized equipment divisions.

Therefore, we have a readily available means to collect data.

[ZackJones]

Yesterday I sent an email to President, Kim, and each of the area directors asking for them to consider adding a production optic division. Below is the reply I received from my AD, Jay Corn:

Thank you Zack.
Your suggestion is being considered by the BoD at this time.

As you know it will take some serious discussion as to not only the benefits to USPSA but also the costs. If the division were to be accepted there are many things that must be done prior to implementation. Scoring programs, classifier reviews, rule book changes & additions and several more considerations are at hand. While it may seem easy to just give the ok, there are many things that must be completed before such a change is made.

I am not taking a position one way or the other in this email.

Please bare with us while we review and get member input.

Jay Corn
Area 6

I urge you all to write and express your desire for the division. In my email I also included the link to this post so hopefully the AD's that are members here are also reading the discussion.

Edited May 29, 2014 by ZackJones

[Chris iliff]

Yesterday I sent an email to President, Kim, and each of the area directors asking for them to consider adding a production optic division. Below is the reply I received from my AD, Jay Corn:

Thank you Zack.

Your suggestion is being considered by the BoD at this time.

As you know it will take some serious discussion as to not only the benefits to USPSA but also the costs. If the division were to be accepted there are many things that must be done prior to implementation. Scoring programs, classifier reviews, rule book changes & additions and several more considerations are at hand. While it may seem easy to just give the ok, there are many things that must be completed before such a change is made.

I am not taking a position one way or the other in this email.

Please bare with us while we review and get member input.

Jay Corn

Area 6

I urge you all to write and express your desire for the division. In my email I also included the link to this post so hopefully the AD's that are members here are also reading the discussion.

That is awesome, Flex consider this my email to you!

[Chris iliff]

There certainly is a place to shoot the production optic, as motosapiens points out. Going on ten years in the sport and achieving almost all my goals, I will probably shoot this in OPEN division at some point. I know I could talk some of my friends into the adventure.

But, that is not the same, not even close, to getting the owners who already have these types of guns in the safe and the CC crowd to come out and play.

Kinda hard to sell the endeavor to these shooters by saying, "yeah, not really a division for you per se, but we will just stick you in with the OPEN shooters, come on out!"

IMHO that's just not going to be that productive. Under those conditions I don't see a bunch of growth.

Hence my "If you build it, they will come" approach.

Also, I just don't see it being that difficult to set up. A lot of "what if's" blah, blah, blah. Get bantered around and tend to bog the issue down for no reason.

It's Production, it's production rules, it's a slide mounted optic, if something like weight or box seems hard, strike it from this divisions rules. It doesn't have to be hard, in fact, keep it simple.

The gun is on the production list, it has a slide mounted optic, your holster and belt and pouches are the same as for production. Very simple. Why try to bog it down with boxes and weights of guns? That's just ridiculous stuff bogging it down for no reason.

It's fairly easy to implement, if you use common sense.

Common sence is a great idea but how exatily you wright it down in the rules is what people will do.

No box great my mags will all have 140mm extensions for easier loading. Then you say no extensions and everyone will complain because they cant use the same mags they use in production.

No weight then my grip plug mag extensions and enythingbelse I can find to replace will be brass or tungsten to help controll recoil. saying you want simple doesnt mean it will stay that way unless you wright a rule set that mandates it.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-T217A using Tapatalk

This is what to avoid. This type of negative thinking.

Again, it's Production rules, easy.

Holster? See Production rules. Belt, pouches, .....see Production rules. Power factor,...see production rules. The list goes on. The answer is the same,.....SEE PRODUCTION RULES.

There are some EXCEPTIONS......

Here are Production specific rules that I would REMOVE. These are in Appendix D4.

#7, 8, 18, & 21.7.

I would probably reword 21.7 and come up with a single length limit. Maybe 126mm. Whatever the longest "standard" mag is in an "approved" gun. Maybe fudge it higher, to account for new entries to production approved list. Like I keep saying, it's not hard.

When Stoeger started winning with a Beretta, I came to the realization that it's almost always the Indian. This is the common sense approach.

RULE 21.2b is ready made for Production Optic and is perfect as written for installing an optic. I got a chuckle when I read it.

HQ pointed out some good questions in the email answer, but HHF for this new division wouldn't be hard. Starting with the HHF in Production you could add 2-3% to each one. Or, if you really wanted to get a bit more technical you could find the avg difference between the HHF's of Limited and Open, then add that difference to the Production HHF's and viola, it'd be close. If the classifiers didn't require a reload then of course you'd want to fudge it a little bit toward the Open HHF for that particular classifier. Someone would have to adjust them and watch them a bit, but it'd work.

As I keep saying, it's not as complicated as some suggest, IMHO.

Edited May 29, 2014 by Chris iliff

[technetium-99m]

Just a question regarding slide mounted dots. Are there any scopes made right now that can survive long term on top of a gun?

Honestly, right now I see this shifting members around rather than adding shooters, but I've been wrong before. I picture the guys who run dots on carry guns are the same guys who say things like "that competition stuff will get you killed on the street." Once the dots on common guns concept becomes more mainstream then yes, it probably will add members.

[Jadeslade]

Your picture of the guys who run dots on carry guns is wrong. I think that's what we're trying to tell you. To answer your question, yes. Aimpoints, Trijicons. Probably better to call them red dots or RMRs or T1s-"scopes" gives the wrong impression.

[technetium-99m]

I'm willing to be shown the error of my ways. Try it provisionally and see who shows up to shoot it.

[OUshooter]

An email to my AD is a great idea. It will be interesting to see what they have to say.

For the record I can't fathom trusting my life to a red dot in a self defense situation.

[ctay]

An email to my AD is a great idea. It will be interesting to see what they have to say.

For the record I can't fathom trusting my life to a red dot in a self defense situation.

Most of them co-witness so you don't have to.

[ZackJones]

That is awesome, Flex consider this my email to you!

FWIW, I included all 8 of AD's in my email and when Jay replied he CC'd all of them as well so at least the president, executive director, and all 8 area directors know that 5 or 6 of us here on Enos want it .

[OUshooter]

An email to my AD is a great idea. It will be interesting to see what they have to say.

For the record I can't fathom trusting my life to a red dot in a self defense situation.

Most of them co-witness so you don't have to.

hmm....so a competitor in the PO division would have 2 options for target acquisition.

[OUshooter]

Does anyone have a list of pistols with a red dot factory option, noncompensated? I keep turning up the same vendor.

[Chuck Anderson]

The Leupold DeltaPoint comes with adaptors for ten different pistols. Glocks, Smiths, 1911, Sig and a few others. You don't need a specific slide to use one.

[caspian guy]

Smith and FN off the top of my head make guns already machined.

[remoandiris]

An email to my AD is a great idea. It will be interesting to see what they have to say.

For the record I can't fathom trusting my life to a red dot in a self defense situation.

Most of them co-witness so you don't have to.

hmm....so a competitor in the PO division would have 2 options for target acquisition.

Says who? Don't get biased by what is available vs. what rules may or may not allow.

[Jadeslade]

Does anyone have a list of pistols with a red dot factory option, noncompensated? I keep turning up the same vendor.

http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Category3_750001_750051_757781_-1_Y

http://www.fnhusa.com/l/products/handguns/fnx-series/fnx-45-tactical/

[OUshooter]

Thanks much for the input and links.

[zhunter]

As has been the case for the past 52 years, I'm late to the game but (#1)... I only found this thread because I'm buying two 9mm C.O.R.E. M&P's. I've also just today ordered two Delta Point-2's. My objective was to have some fun, shoot some a Steel Challenge, and keep one in the nightstand for home defense.

But (#2) then I got to thinking maybe I'd shoot some USPSA (yep I'm a Life a Member who has shot 1 match in about 3 years) and just say heck with it and shoot Open Minor. Not a big deal, I shoot for fun and against my own goals and time expectations. Then I saw a post in another thread that alluded to this thread/idea of a Production Optic division and yowza I'm interested. Heck, I read all 7 pages of this thread.

Now, I think that the outlook of "what does it bring to the sport?" question as very viable. So let me share a short exchange I had earlier today with my 18 yo son. He had really shown no interest in USPSA. When he was younger, I put a .22 conversion on my SS and let him shoot steel. He had fun but was not wow'ed. Last year I took him to shoot steel with a SS .45 using minor ammo, he was not wow'ed. But this morning I asked him if he'd be interested in shooting steel with a dot (he shot a friends red dot on a .22 once) and he showed some serious interest for the first time ever. These kids often grow up playing video games, and you guessed it, all of those games (or so I'm told) incorporate red dot weapons. I see this as bringing in younger shooters. Let's face it, shooting a red dot has a shorter learning curve and today's youth are all about instant gratification. Sure, you still need to teach them the proper grip,stance etc... But get them interested and we have a big chance to increase participation.

If my son was interested, I'd shoot lot more myself for things to do together, because he's made it clear he's not going fly fishing.

Yes, I see production guns with optics growing, this seems like a winning situation. I see no downside to a provisional division.

As a P.S.: I'm 52 with a need to wear reading glasses (can you say front sight?) but can see great at distance. I've also ONLY shot Single Stack Division since that division was either created or was provisional.

Let's face it, it's a great idea, as stated above, it creates new interest from this "retired shooter", has the interest of my non-shooting son. Plus it would be a great place for some older shooters who due to poor eyesight had to go into the Open Division because they could not see the front sight anymore. Yes, some went to Open, but how many did we lose because the couldn't afford an Open gun?

In short, I see a Production Optic Division as a very viable division.

Hope this longish post helps.

ZH

Edited June 23, 2014 by zhunter

[BritinUSA]

I'll be trying this at some local matches once I get some magazines sorted out for my XDM.

Springer Precision make an adapter plate for this gun that replaces the factory rear sight so that is all mounted and ready to go.

I'm planning a write-up of my experiences with this, I may even send a copy to Front Sight when its done.

[eric4069]

I'll be trying this at some local matches once I get some magazines sorted out for my XDM.

Springer Precision make an adapter plate for this gun that replaces the factory rear sight so that is all mounted and ready to go.

I'm planning a write-up of my experiences with this, I may even send a copy to Front Sight when its done.

Look forward to reading it

Eric

[zhunter]

I'll be trying this at some local matches once I get some magazines sorted out for my XDM.

Springer Precision make an adapter plate for this gun that replaces the factory rear sight so that is all mounted and ready to go.

I'm planning a write-up of my experiences with this, I may even send a copy to Front Sight when its done.

I too will look forward to hearing and reading about it.

Heck, when I get it all together, currently waiting on parts, I'll just shoot steel and Open minor. Heck, I'm in U Class Open anyway

Please make Production Optics a reality