gose Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 I don't know about others, but my point would be to be able to slap on an optic and remain competitive. Otherwise I'd just take my STI Steelmaster with it's 101 PF loads I use for open Steel Challenge division and shoot open USPSA ... A Glock, or M&P might be more competitive in a production optics division than in Open, but is it really going to be competitive with a tuned $3000+ production legal Tanfo or Sphinx? Probably not, and creating a division so that people can be just a little more competitive seems somewhat silly to me. "Lets create a new division so I can get from 60% to 70%." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trgt Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 (edited) I don't know about others, but my point would be to be able to slap on an optic and remain competitive. Otherwise I'd just take my STI Steelmaster with it's 101 PF loads I use for open Steel Challenge division and shoot open USPSA ... A Glock, or M&P might be more competitive in a production optics division than in Open, but is it really going to be competitive with a tuned $3000+ production legal Tanfo or Sphinx? Probably not, and creating a division so that people can be just a little more competitive seems somewhat silly to me. "Lets create a new division so I can get from 60% to 70%." Whether it's a $1000 Glock/Fastfire III combo, or a $3000 Tanfo/CZ setup with RMR or Delta Point, I think the point that these two setups running without compensators, minor power factor, and 10 round mag limit, would be internally consistent as a class, the variance in score mostly due to shooter ability, and the best shooter has a good chance to score a class win regardless of which they pick. Put either of these setups in Open, and you've got a pretty big handicap minor vs major scoring, 10 round vs 170mm mag (28-ish rounds?), and compensator vs not -- best shooter probably 60%-80% of a good open shooter any given day? Edited July 14, 2014 by trgt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racinready300ex Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 I don't see the point Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 I don't know about others, but my point would be to be able to slap on an optic and remain competitive. Otherwise I'd just take my STI Steelmaster with it's 101 PF loads I use for open Steel Challenge division and shoot open USPSA ... Being 'competitive', especially at the local level, has more to do with you than with your gun. Plenty of people do quite well at local matches shooting open or limited minor (I think most of them are 3-gunners). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 Ok, what I actually meant to say was I'd take my Steelmaster and shoot open minor with a 125+ PF load. I assume it's legal to shoot open with a declared minor PF and still have your score count? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 Agreed. I wouldn't try and shoot a level II or III match in open minor since I wouldn't be competitive. However, assuming its legal, which it sounds like it is, I plan to shoot some local matches in the future in open minor as a segway to open major so when I make the jump my learning curve won't be as steep ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 I intend to shoot mine at Nationals. Though I have not competed at Nationals for a couple of years I had a solid performance (for me at least) in 2011 with a 70%. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kneelingatlas Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 I don't know about others, but my point would be to be able to slap on an optic and remain competitive. Otherwise I'd just take my STI Steelmaster with it's 101 PF loads I use for open Steel Challenge division and shoot open USPSA ... Being 'competitive', especially at the local level, has more to do with you than with your gun. Plenty of people do quite well at local matches shooting open or limited minor (I think most of them are 3-gunners). +1 I shoot a home made Open gun, if someone were to hand me a $4,000 custom Limcat would I place even 1 spot higher? or if I threw a dot on my Production gun would I score more than one spot lower? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trgt Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 I shoot a home made Open gun, if someone were to hand me a $4,000 custom Limcat would I place even 1 spot higher? or if I threw a dot on my Production gun would I score more than one spot lower? I'd offer that your home made open guns are not much different from value of the Limcat's in terms of performance and reliability, when you consider the value of your time in what you've done (and done/discarded), and how much of what they are selling is time/craftsmanship vs. parts. On scoring production optic vs full blow major gun, good question. In your case because you are hyper accurate, you are not going to get penalized as much with minor scoring vs someone trying to move faster but who is letting some points drop. But I guess I see the viewpoint of you and others, just shoot open. If an overwhelming critical mass of folks start doing this and there's justification, then worry about it, not before. FWIW (thread drift danger) I believe a few folks with RDS (and certainly laser) - basically what I'm hearing described as production optics, were at a night match series, and they had top billing to themselves. Not a single 'real' open gun in sight - can't bolt a light to one, and the compensator blast not night friendly :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jabbermurph Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 (edited) One of the main points of this is reloading cost or the ability to run factory ammo. Everyone is focused so much on the equipment race. Every division is an equipment race. It promotes handgun evolution, which is a good thing for the sport. Shooting a dot is fun. I've only done it once, but it was a blast. I will probably never have the disposable income to shoot in Open and be competitive (having a backup, maintenance, reloading, mag tuning, new rig etc.). But I would enjoy shooting a dot in a division where I could be competitive with what I could afford. Especially if I could have an interchangeable slide set for one frame and use the same rig. Then you could do the Nationals similar to the Lim/Open Nats last year with Prod/Prod Opt. We have 6 divisions, and only one allows the use of an optic sight. That needs to change. Maybe if we change the name to Practical Optics....or Tactical Optics...either way, it's going down. The old dogs just need to accept the fact that there will always be new tricks. Y'all may not dig it, but I guarantee it would pull more shooters than the 3 divisions with the lowest participation. Edited July 14, 2014 by jabbermurph Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted July 15, 2014 Share Posted July 15, 2014 Ok, what I actually meant to say was I'd take my Steelmaster and shoot open minor with a 125+ PF load. I assume it's legal to shoot open with a declared minor PF and still have your score count? Of course. Friends of mine do that to protect their joints from recoil -- hands and elbows...... Seeing a 101PF just had me wondering, since we do bring out a chromo at Level 1 matches occasionally..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WheelGunHunter Posted July 15, 2014 Share Posted July 15, 2014 I think it would be a great addition, production legal guns with optics on them are becoming increasingly popular. People can shoot a gun with an optic on it without having to spend a lot of money to be competitive and it may help bring in new shooters. From my experience of introducing some people to target shooting most all of them have enjoyed shooting my Mark III with a fast fire on it over any other 22 or gun I brought that day. I would shoot my S&W 327 (it's a revo) with an optic on it in that division from time to time if it was an option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gose Posted July 15, 2014 Share Posted July 15, 2014 We have 6 divisions, and only one allows the use of an optic sight. That needs to change. Fine by me. Introduce this new division and drop revolver and I'll be all for it. In with the new, out with the old! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhunter Posted July 15, 2014 Share Posted July 15, 2014 I love the guys here who are naysayers to the Prod Optics idea. I guess those guys think that USPSA is growing and healthy? Wake up it's not, and this idea has serious growth potential, both for new shooters and the ones that left because they lost interest and/or deteriorating eyesight. If you're against this new idea to grow the sport, please share your idea to grow USPSA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theblacknight Posted July 15, 2014 Share Posted July 15, 2014 The number of people who don't shoot USPSA because they have a trendy RMRed Glock and don't want to shoot open is no where close to the amount of people who don't shoot USPSA with any gun because they've never heard of it or never been encouraged to come out and race. Production optics is a stupid idea. We already have 6 divisions dividing the talent pool up. Why not single stack and revolver optics too? Are guys that put a RMR on their Glock really going to want to adhere to all the other production division rules, including 10r mags,stippling only inside the lines and no grip reshaping? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB45 Posted July 15, 2014 Share Posted July 15, 2014 Hey you know what would be cool? Another division for people to not win. Do you really think putting a red dot on a production junker gun is going to change anything? Very few people take the competition seriously and are willing to do the required work to get better. Adding a red dot is just a gear change, not a performance chance, I hypothesize that 90% of people who say "My eyes are too bad to shoot iron sights" are really just too lazy to figure out how to shoot irons. I know several shooters that have poor eye sight, yet they seem to figure it out. The guns are a cool idea, but they aren't a revolutionary idea. USPSA guys have been putting red dot sights for a long time. All that being said, I further postulate that this division would severely dilute the Production talent pool. Create one division and make another obsolete, sounds like a win. Talk about discouraging new shooters. "USPSA: Must have a red dot to participate." The BOD should think short and long term about this topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fiddler Posted July 15, 2014 Share Posted July 15, 2014 For the record, S&W will not sell a CORE slide. There was no explanation, just a "No". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted July 15, 2014 Share Posted July 15, 2014 I think some States have a law that indicates that the slide and frame must have matching serial numbers, that may explain the decision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kneelingatlas Posted July 15, 2014 Share Posted July 15, 2014 I think some States have a law that indicates that the slide and frame must have matching serial numbers, that may explain the decision. Please share, which states are those? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted July 15, 2014 Share Posted July 15, 2014 I don't know, which is why I said "I think". Haven't you ever wondered why the slide and frame and some cases the barrel now all carry the same serial number ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted July 15, 2014 Share Posted July 15, 2014 I love the guys here who are naysayers to the Prod Optics idea. I guess those guys think that USPSA is growing and healthy? Wake up it's not, and this idea has serious growth potential, both for new shooters and the ones that left because they lost interest and/or deteriorating eyesight. If you're against this new idea to grow the sport, please share your idea to grow USPSA. USPSA has grown pretty dramatically in my area in the last 2-3 years, both in pure numbers of participants and in the skill level of the participants. I think 2 main things have contributed to that: 1. Shoot for a cure match which has 200-300 participants and is mostly targetted at new shooters, with stages from uspsa, idpa and steel challenge. 2. Weekly steel challenge match for $5 during the non-snowy part of the year. I don't know that there are a ton of people who are dying to get into competition but their only gun is production-optic style gun. But maybe I'm wrong. I think it would water down production a bit and maybe a draw a few shooters from other divisions, but I'm not convinced it would do anything to make the sport grow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhunter Posted July 15, 2014 Share Posted July 15, 2014 There is no doubt it would draw shooter from other divisions, the question is are we willing to try to draw IN new participants? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alma Posted July 15, 2014 Share Posted July 15, 2014 This feels like one great big excuse to by a new top end for my Production gun that is milled for an optic; not that I really needed an excuse. It would be pretty cool for Steel Challenge as is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted July 15, 2014 Share Posted July 15, 2014 You don't ned to mill the slide, there are a ton of adapter plates out there that could slot into your existing rear dovetail and allow you to mount a dot. I'm using one on my XDM 5.25 from Springer Precision, it only costs $45. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alma Posted July 15, 2014 Share Posted July 15, 2014 You don't ned to mill the slide, there are a ton of adapter plates out there that could slot into your existing rear dovetail and allow you to mount a dot. I'm using one on my XDM 5.25 from Springer Precision, it only costs $45. I don't NEED to do most of what I do. I figure if I was going to do it I would want to do it right and get the dot as close to the height of my iron sights as possible. Here is Angus' setup for Steel Challenge open: http://youtu.be/FDi0_VDAcQU?t=15m51s Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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