Production optics

[wide45]

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Edited November 6, 2014 by wide45

[Nik Habicht]

Race holster vs. Production legal holster? Insignificant?

Slide lightening vs. no slide lightening? Insignificant?

Yep, both of those are insignificant for USPSA.......

For steel challenge the first one might matter....

So you cherry picked a couple out of several for a biased response?

If slide lightening is not an advantage, why is it do prevalent?

Because most folks initially play follow the leader, until they know better.....

I started in this game with a Glock, in Limited minor, and 13 years later still shoot the same gun.....

I've never had a slide lightened. I don't think that's what's holding me back from achieving greatness in USPSA.....

And for the record -- I'm actually on your side, so I'd like you to make stronger arguments, and not include trivial details that don't matter.....

You're too smart to be easily dismissed -- but that's exactly what happens when you cite a couple of differences that really don't matter....

Single Action Matters

Comps and ports matter

Magazine capacity matters

Having a gun that is able to weigh more than x oz over factory may matter (in terms of how many tools you can hang off it....)

Holsters, holster position and slide lightening -- not so much.....

[A-shot]

I'm putting a $300 flashlight on my Brazos.

[zhunter]

Nik

I think a lot of small things add up to a significant amount.

Thanks for your support

[NPSS]

USPSA needed another low-cost division with an optic for increased participation from :

Manufacturers with sponsorship

Law Enforcement (who will ultimately use this technology)

People with vision problems who cannot afford Open

People who wish to be competitive and prefer a reddot but cannot lay down the $5000 or so needed for an Open gun

USPSA needs to figure out where we want this sport to be in five years and what it may look like.

In my opinion the BOD/President failed in this regard, a complete lack of vision for the future and a desire to run this sport the same way they did last year and the year before that.

You are absolutely insane if you think LE will be using RMR's in the next 20 year for mass issue.

All this talk of making a competitive division for people with poor eye sight is hilarious. If you have poor eye sight, you won't be competitive period. Stop kidding yourself.

[NPSS]

This thread reminds me of

[OperationHitFactor]

Production optics division sounds fun. Open is pricey to get into and pricey to maintain. Many people like shooting with an Optic but the price to play is too expensive.

Open

$4000-$5500 for a new gun, $2000-$3000 for a used gun plus another $500-$1000 for repairs on someones used problem. Lets just say$3500 for a gun

$600 for a Dillon, oh you want the case feeder and bullet feeder, oh now the 1050.... lets just say $1000 for reloading press/equipment.

Mags? you want them tuned right? Lets just say $500

Hours of frustration tracking down N105, Autocomp, HS6, Silhouette,etc... 40 per pound need sample lbs of various different magic dust to develop secret flat load. I'm being conservative... lets say $300

Brass, well after you spend 100 hours reading every 38 super vs 9 major load on the internet pull your eyes out and bring yourself to the edge of insanity you still have to buy brass. Guess what buddy, there is also super comp and 38 super TJ too! We won't include the doctor or therapy bills. Let's say $150 for 9 major $300 for 38 super... So $200

That is $5500 not including aggravation, starvation, therapy, and at least one failed relationship from reading 38 super vs 9 major during "our time".

Production Optics

Glock/M&P/Beretta/XD/CZ $500-$600

Milled slide and Cerakote refinish $200-$400

Magazines $80

Optic $250-400

2000 rounds of factory 9mm $550

That is about $2000 without aggravation, starvation, therapy, and she is happy because "our time" is not spent reading the entire internet to decide between 38 Super and 9 Major.

Cheers,

Edited November 6, 2014 by OperationHitFactor

[OperationHitFactor]

USPSA needed another low-cost division with an optic for increased participation from :

Manufacturers with sponsorship

Law Enforcement (who will ultimately use this technology)

People with vision problems who cannot afford Open

People who wish to be competitive and prefer a reddot but cannot lay down the $5000 or so needed for an Open gun

USPSA needs to figure out where we want this sport to be in five years and what it may look like.

In my opinion the BOD/President failed in this regard, a complete lack of vision for the future and a desire to run this sport the same way they did last year and the year before that.

You are absolutely insane if you think LE will be using RMR's in the next 20 year for mass issue. He said nothing about mass issue or twenty years. Some LE agencies already issue them to specialty units.

All this talk of making a competitive division for people with poor eye sight is hilarious. If you have poor eye sight, you won't be competitive period. Stop kidding yourself. Some people can see the targets fine, they just can't see the front sight, reading glasses don't work for shooting. This type of vision loss effects everyone at some point in their life, because our eyes age. Optics help solve this problem.

[ToddKS]

I ordered the mount to put my Delta Point on my XDm for a test run. Might shoot it in open next year depending on how I like it.

[amish_rabbi]

Frankly, I think people who really care how they place in their division at a local match (as opposed to how well they shot and whether they are improving) are worthy of the same mockery I usually dole out to folks who are proud of 'winning' their 'class'.

Caring about how you place translates to caring about if you are improving provided you have good competition in your division, which was my whole point. Which you managed to miss and just throw a sideways insult at me.

[NPSS]

USPSA needed another low-cost division with an optic for increased participation from :

Manufacturers with sponsorship

Law Enforcement (who will ultimately use this technology)

People with vision problems who cannot afford Open

People who wish to be competitive and prefer a reddot but cannot lay down the $5000 or so needed for an Open gun

USPSA needs to figure out where we want this sport to be in five years and what it may look like.

In my opinion the BOD/President failed in this regard, a complete lack of vision for the future and a desire to run this sport the same way they did last year and the year before that.

You are absolutely insane if you think LE will be using RMR's in the next 20 year for mass issue. He said nothing about mass issue or twenty years. Some LE agencies already issue them to specialty units.

All this talk of making a competitive division for people with poor eye sight is hilarious. If you have poor eye sight, you won't be competitive period. Stop kidding yourself. Some people can see the targets fine, they just can't see the front sight, reading glasses don't work for shooting. This type of vision loss effects everyone at some point in their life, because our eyes age. Optics help solve this problem.

Mass issue is the actual test of a concept's applicability to LE. THATS why I included a time frame. It won't happen in the next 20 years if ever . Having a couple scattered teams here and there isn't much for demand or proof of concept.

HOWEVER since you wanted to go there, the RMR'ed guns that LE guys are using wouldn't fit into the narrowly requested ProOptics rules set described in this thread. Look at the RMR'ed guns LE guys are using all you'll also find features like full stippling(not legal), undercut trigger guards(not legal),grip recontouring(not legal),cut near the mag well for ripping stuck mags out(not legal), backup irons(not legal)extended controls for use with gloves(legality depends on which parts used).

See how that went? The division that is claimed to be a place where these guns can be competitive in dosent even allow for a majority of these type of guns that are already out there.

To the eyesight thing, at that point, the eye sight isn't the only thing making a person non competitive if they where in the 1st place. This is just one more cry from the guys who started IPSC with tunnels,walls, long streches between shooting boxes,and summersaults to test gear retention, but now want to dumb the sport down for them now that they are older.

[teros135]

I'll mention it again - for the "older" set, try a pair of $7 Walmart readers, +1.0 or +1.25 power. Wear them either alone or with your regular Rx spectacles or contacts. Makes the front sight at least 90% sharp and the targets still visible (including holes). A guy turned me on to this and I can see my sights without having to tilt my head back to get into the trifocal area of the glasses. Wonderful - and a lot less expensive than a $2000 PO setup above, lets me keep my current gun.

[zhunter]

I can only speak for local matches in Florida, but there is plenty of competition down here to compare yourself to in locals.

Maybe not Ben, Max or Rob, but there is typically a Production GM or two in the local matches I shoot.

And until I start winning locals (no time soon) I have plenty to compare.

Maybe other parts of the country are different.

[OperationHitFactor]

USPSA needed another low-cost division with an optic for increased participation from :

Manufacturers with sponsorship

Law Enforcement (who will ultimately use this technology)

People with vision problems who cannot afford Open

People who wish to be competitive and prefer a reddot but cannot lay down the $5000 or so needed for an Open gun

USPSA needs to figure out where we want this sport to be in five years and what it may look like.

In my opinion the BOD/President failed in this regard, a complete lack of vision for the future and a desire to run this sport the same way they did last year and the year before that.

You are absolutely insane if you think LE will be using RMR's in the next 20 year for mass issue. He said nothing about mass issue or twenty years. Some LE agencies already issue them to specialty units.

All this talk of making a competitive division for people with poor eye sight is hilarious. If you have poor eye sight, you won't be competitive period. Stop kidding yourself. Some people can see the targets fine, they just can't see the front sight, reading glasses don't work for shooting. This type of vision loss effects everyone at some point in their life, because our eyes age. Optics help solve this problem.

Mass issue is the actual test of a concept's applicability to LE. THATS why I included a time frame. It won't happen in the next 20 years if ever . Having a couple scattered teams here and there isn't much for demand or proof of concept. Shields, Revolvers, Thermal Cameras, Suppressors, Night Vision, Laser Light on Revolvers for the guy carrying the shield and/or Optics are all widely used but not always standard issued due to budgets and City Hall or County Commission politics. HOWEVER since you wanted to go there, optics can be super useful for clearing a room or house in a low light situation with a guy who has barricaded himself and girlfriend into a back bedroom. Throw in a little smoke or gas and guess what you can't see sights through your goggles for the guy now holding a knife to her. Basically any call after dark would be useful with an optic because you cannot see your sights with the mounted flashlight underneath. Night sights don't actually work all that great so it evolves into point shooting looking over the slide. There is a lot of discussion in LE communities of how certain situations Optics can be a huge advantage. Granted the day shift guy working in broad daylight probably won't benefit all that much from an Optic, but most likely he's command staff just trying to get to lunch and back. Since that day shift guy going to lunch and back approves the budgets you are right it probably will not be approved. So you are probably right good sir, I concede.

HOWEVER since you wanted to go there, the RMR'ed guns that LE guys are using wouldn't fit into the narrowly requested ProOptics rules set described in this thread. Look at the RMR'ed guns LE guys are using all you'll also find features like full stippling(not legal), undercut trigger guards(not legal),grip recontouring(not legal),cut near the mag well for ripping stuck mags out(not legal), backup irons(not legal)extended controls for use with gloves(legality depends on which parts used). I would love to be a fly on the wall for that guy who does this to his duty issued firearm. It would be hilarious, because most agencies have strict policy on this. On the other hand, I love a good rebel sticking it to the man, to heck with policy. So you are probably right good sir, I concede.

See how that went? The division that is claimed to be a place where these guns can be competitive in dosent even allow for a majority of these type of guns that are already out there. What!? Huh!? How'd did what go? Okay you're right, I'm stupid, I concede.

To the eyesight thing, at that point, the eye sight isn't the only thing making a person non competitive if they where in the 1st place. This is just one more cry from the guys who started IPSC with tunnels,walls, long streches between shooting boxes,and summersaults to test gear retention, but now want to dumb the sport down for them now that they are older. I'm 32 with perfect vision. I want to shoot Production Optics because I like to shoot with an optic. This is not an instance of people trying to dumb a sport down. Yes, people mentioned vision only to support the argument/want/need for another division. I am stupid so you are probably right good sir, I concede.

[ZackJones]

I'm disappointed the BoD voted it down but the last match I shot I shot as open minor and it was a lot of fun. So much so that I'm shooting it again at the next match I shoot. I kept my gear on the belt in the same place I always have but did load the magazines to capacity.

Edited November 6, 2014 by ZackJones

[motosapiens]

I think one thing to consider here is that I wonder how many USPSA members are even AWARE of this proposal. I spoke to a few people at Nationals and excepting those who I shoot with locally, pretty much no-one else had even heard about it.

Exactly. Most people don't know and don't care. The way to change that is to start shooting your local matches with a PO gun and talking to people about it, and helping the local MD recognize the division, even informally. Build support at the grass roots instead of in the treetops.

[motosapiens]

Caring about how you place translates to caring about if you are improving provided you have good competition in your division, which was my whole point. Which you managed to miss and just throw a sideways insult at me.

nope. two different things. You don't need good competition in your division at a local match to be able to quantify if you are improving. And stop being oversensitive.

[Sarge]

I think one thing to consider here is that I wonder how many USPSA members are even AWARE of this proposal. I spoke to a few people at Nationals and excepting those who I shoot with locally, pretty much no-one else had even heard about it.

Exactly. Most people don't know and don't care. The way to change that is to start shooting your local matches with a PO gun and talking to people about it, and helping the local MD recognize the division, even informally. Build support at the grass roots instead of in the treetops.

Hell, walk up to your typical uspsa member and ask them who the president of USPSA is, or ask who the ED is. They won't know that either. We are a small and very in tune group here but it's not like this in the real world.

[Racinready300ex]

Zack how did you do against other open shooters with your classification?

[motosapiens]

I'll mention it again - for the "older" set, try a pair of $7 Walmart readers, +1.0 or +1.25 power. Wear them either alone or with your regular Rx spectacles or contacts. Makes the front sight at least 90% sharp and the targets still visible (including holes). A guy turned me on to this and I can see my sights without having to tilt my head back to get into the trifocal area of the glasses. Wonderful - and a lot less expensive than a $2000 PO setup above, lets me keep my current gun.

This is what I do. I found that about half the power I need for reading is just right for shooting. In my case that means .5 power readers. They have really transformed my shooting. I don't know how it would work for people that need significantly more power (targets might end up too fuzzy), but for my 53 year old eyes the low-power readers work great.

[motosapiens]

Hell, walk up to your typical uspsa member and ask them who the president of USPSA is, or ask what ED is. They won't know that either. We are a small and very in tune group here but it's not like this in the real world.

pretty sure most folks old enough to care about optics are all too well acquainted with ED.

[motosapiens]

Zack how did you do against other open shooters with your classification?

At a local match, who cares? The point is whether he will make progress over the next 6 months.

[ZackJones]

Zack how did you do against other open shooters with your classification?

I won! But only because I was the only D class open shooter . I was 8th out of 10 overall for open shooters. I shot 36% of the open winner so I ended up exactly where I should have.

[zhunter]

Here is a quote from another thread from a guy that has a pretty good idea about the popularity of slide mounted optics

We do more "Open" guns for carry than competition. Maybe they are waking up.

[zhunter]

I think one thing to consider here is that I wonder how many USPSA members are even AWARE of this proposal. I spoke to a few people at Nationals and excepting those who I shoot with locally, pretty much no-one else had even heard about it.

Exactly. Most people don't know and don't care. The way to change that is to start shooting your local matches with a PO gun and talking to people about it, and helping the local MD recognize the division, even informally. Build support at the grass roots instead of in the treetops.

Hell, walk up to your typical uspsa member and ask them who the president of USPSA is, or ask who the ED is. They won't know that either. We are a small and very in tune group here but it's not like this in the real world.

100% correct

Sadly actually