bikerburgess Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 One issue I see with the lead from the front idea is, by making rules you will shape the development of the category rather than let it develop on its own and then make rules that fit it. In the mean time we have a division that they can play in. I'm pretty sure there were plenty shooting GLOCKs and 1911s in limited before their divisions were created Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 Production was a division without a predecessor, I doubt that many people were shooting SA/DA guns with Minor scoring and only 10 rounds before that division was introduced. The rules of that division were published and the growth occurred within those rules, though there was some tweaking of the rules after the fact. With the proposal for Production/Optics we are using a proven model for the rule-set, Production is a popular and growing division, hence the only changes that are being proposed for this new division are those three that are required to accommodate an optic. We are not re-inventing the wheel here, those that support this proposal see an opportunity for growth not only in membership but in sponsorship and in retention of our existing members. If we try to predict where this sport will be in five years we have to consider many aspects and one of those is the cost of competing; We have two CUSTOM divisions, Open and Limited, one has an optic and one does not. We have only one FACTORY division, that being Production, if we create a second FACTORY division that is essentially the same as the original but with the addition of an optic we provide a second (much lower cost) option for this who wish to shoot with an optic. What will Open/Limited guns cost in five years? Will we drive competitors away from this sport if the cost is too high? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UCOShooter Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 Production was a division without a predecessor, I doubt that many people were shooting SA/DA guns with Minor scoring and only 10 rounds before that division was introduced. The rules of that division were published and the growth occurred within those rules, though there was some tweaking of the rules after the fact. With the proposal for Production/Optics we are using a proven model for the rule-set, Production is a popular and growing division, hence the only changes that are being proposed for this new division are those three that are required to accommodate an optic. We are not re-inventing the wheel here, those that support this proposal see an opportunity for growth not only in membership but in sponsorship and in retention of our existing members. If we try to predict where this sport will be in five years we have to consider many aspects and one of those is the cost of competing; We have two CUSTOM divisions, Open and Limited, one has an optic and one does not. We have only one FACTORY division, that being Production, if we create a second FACTORY division that is essentially the same as the original but with the addition of an optic we provide a second (much lower cost) option for this who wish to shoot with an optic. What will Open/Limited guns cost in five years? Will we drive competitors away from this sport if the cost is too high? Totally agree with this statement! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 Lack of vision has been an issue with USPSA for a long time. Outlaw 3Gun, IDPA, ICORE were all the result of "leading from behind". Beltjones made some good points that we should be able to agree with and at least explore it more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g17drumr Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 I personally have no interest in production optics but then again i have no interest in open either. I dont see why they wouldnt allow PO though i cant think of anything it would hurt, and if its not popular it will just be another section in the scores with only a handful of shooters but no harm... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhunter Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 Interesting post in a different thread about lack of PO interest and the response. but you can already shoot that gun in USPSA. Why don't you? And why don't you get your friends to do it too? And why don't you ask the MD to break out your scores separately? I know i would happily do that. Prove that there are more than 10-15 people in the country that care about this issue.Glock slides milled for RMR optic, available at Brownells: http://www.brownells.com/handgun-parts/slide-parts/slides/tactical-19-rmr-slide-for-glock--sku100008783-45253-101546.aspxGlock slides milled for RMR optic, available from One Source Tactical: http://www.onesourcetactical.com/tsdpistolslides.aspx Glock slides milled for optics available from Lone Wolf: http://www.lonewolfdist.com/Detail.aspx?PROD=156471 From Rogers Shooting School: http://www.rogersshootingschool.com/products/gunslide.php From GlockWorx: http://www.glockworx.com/products.aspx?CAT=3720 There wouldn't be that many different places providing this service if only 10-15 people nationwide were carrying Glocks with slide-mounted optics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teros135 Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 So where are all the people who are clamoring to actually shoot them at USPSA? I don't see them here, in three different clubs... I'm also having trouble with the idea that only people with high-dollar slick custom guns can shoot Open, let alone be "competitive". I guess it's the word "competitive". Competitive with whom? With the GM crowd? None of us "regular" folks are competitive with them, regardless of equipment. That's why there are classes. I classified in Open with my polymer production gun, using hicap mags, and am in the same class as Production. I'm no hero, just trying to shoot my best. If a full-race gun would put me in GM (hah!) then I would play at that level, but it won't (and that's a relief). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 Production was a division without a predecessor, I doubt that many people were shooting SA/DA guns with Minor scoring and only 10 rounds before that division was introduced. The rules of that division were published and the growth occurred within those rules, though there was some tweaking of the rules after the fact. With the proposal for Production/Optics we are using a proven model for the rule-set, Production is a popular and growing division, hence the only changes that are being proposed for this new division are those three that are required to accommodate an optic. We are not re-inventing the wheel here, those that support this proposal see an opportunity for growth not only in membership but in sponsorship and in retention of our existing members. If we try to predict where this sport will be in five years we have to consider many aspects and one of those is the cost of competing; We have two CUSTOM divisions, Open and Limited, one has an optic and one does not. We have only one FACTORY division, that being Production, if we create a second FACTORY division that is essentially the same as the original but with the addition of an optic we provide a second (much lower cost) option for this who wish to shoot with an optic. What will Open/Limited guns cost in five years? Will we drive competitors away from this sport if the cost is too high? I think it was pretty clear to everyone that production type guns (glocks, berettas, etc...) were in *widespread* use. It's not at all clear to me that carry-optics are all that popular. Perhaps someday they will be. Is limited expensive? I just got a complete competitive Limited setup for under $1500 (all brand new gun, mags, holster). If people *choose* to spend a zillion dollars on a custom gun, it doesn't mean they are required to in order to do well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 I think if you add the word "Laser" to "Carry-Optics", the numbers tripple at least. Sure, red lasers are not very good for USPSA, but I am sure that the three main companies who produce laser systems would be very happy with increased green sales. Heck, one of them is campaigning a 3GunTeam when they can really only shoot them for one match a year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bikerburgess Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 Production was a division without a predecessor, I doubt that many people were shooting SA/DA guns with Minor scoring and only 10 rounds before that division was introduced. The rules of that division were published and the growth occurred within those rules, though there was some tweaking of the rules after the fact. With the proposal for Production/Optics we are using a proven model for the rule-set, Production is a popular and growing division, hence the only changes that are being proposed for this new division are those three that are required to accommodate an optic. We are not re-inventing the wheel here, those that support this proposal see an opportunity for growth not only in membership but in sponsorship and in retention of our existing members. If we try to predict where this sport will be in five years we have to consider many aspects and one of those is the cost of competing; We have two CUSTOM divisions, Open and Limited, one has an optic and one does not. We have only one FACTORY division, that being Production, if we create a second FACTORY division that is essentially the same as the original but with the addition of an optic we provide a second (much lower cost) option for this who wish to shoot with an optic. What will Open/Limited guns cost in five years? Will we drive competitors away from this sport if the cost is too high? The point I was making is, we did not make a set of rules that manufacturers developed guns to fit (I'm not a USPSA historian but I don't think we wrote the rules for single stack prior to 1911) if you make a very restricted rule set right at the beginning of the product development you rule out other possibly better solutions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 Race holster vs. Production legal holster? Insignificant?Slide lightening vs. no slide lightening? Insignificant? Yep, both of those are insignificant for USPSA....... For steel challenge the first one might matter.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 I wish someone from the BOD would explain to everyone why trying out this division for two years would harm this organization. A provisional division using the original proposal would give it an opportunity to float or sink, criteria could be set at the start of the two year evaluation to judge its success or failure... Honestly, what's the harm in trying it ? I just don't get it.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amish_rabbi Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 (edited) I don't think the argument of "well no one shows up at my local matches and asks me to break out their scores for a production optics division" is relevant, especially for the more competitive shooters. I don't like when I show up at matches and none of the people I usually fight for first with are there (local matches, I'm not actually that good), its no fun to steam roll the competition and if all the good shooters in my division stopped shooting it I would honestly switch divisions. And I know many of the guys I shoot with feel the same way. So right off the bat there is no chance that people who care how they do shoots the fake division. Actually, I just purchased a limited gun for this very reason last week; no one shoots limited 10 in the USPSA matches near me and my classic division gun doesn't fit in single stack and I didn't want to compete against myself, so new gun it is. Edited November 5, 2014 by amish_rabbi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kmca Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 I wish someone from the BOD would explain to everyone why trying out this division for two years would harm this organization. A provisional division using the original proposal would give it an opportunity to float or sink, criteria could be set at the start of the two year evaluation to judge its success or failure... Honestly, what's the harm in trying it ? I just don't get it.... You would have to divide the prize money further Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racinready300ex Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 it wouldn't be a fake division, they would shoot open and let the chips fall where they may. Or they could just spend a few more bucks on a comp, shoot major and fill up there mags and give open a good run. But that's not good enough.... It's not happening, BOD shot it down and that's not good enough either. They are still complaining, and couldn't wait to say look how great IDPA is because the might do it. I bet you IDPA goes with the compact division and a lot more people will shoot that then IDPA's version of PO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhunter Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 Race holster vs. Production legal holster? Insignificant? Slide lightening vs. no slide lightening? Insignificant? Yep, both of those are insignificant for USPSA.......For steel challenge the first one might matter.... So you cherry picked a couple out of several for a biased response? If slide lightening is not an advantage, why is it do prevalent? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wide45 Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 Production was a division without a predecessor... That would be wrong. Find someone that remembers Practical Carry Category. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bikerburgess Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 Just so folks don't get too confused IDPA may add a division closer to L10 minor + optic than it is to anything resembling production optic as proposed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhunter Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 Just so folks don't get too confused IDPA may add a division closer to L10 minor + optic than it is to anything resembling production optic as proposed Most important word is "may"! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 (edited) So right off the bat there is no chance that people who care how they do shoots the fake division. I care how I do, and I am often the only decent shooter in production at local matches. Doesn't bother me at all because I am comparing my scores to the limited and open shooters that I have been close to in the past, and trying to narrow the gap or pass them. I generally shoot production because I like it, and I know I can go to major matches and have deep competition in the division. Similarly, if people who cared how they did and were interested in PO started shooting matches with their PO guns, they would be able to do exactly what I do, and *should* therefore be exactly as happy with their lives (pretty happy, btw). To add to their happiness, they would be taking a *useful* step towards creating a legitimate new division, instead of just complaining on the interwebz that no one will create their new division for them. Frankly, I think people who really care how they place in their division at a local match (as opposed to how well they shot and whether they are improving) are worthy of the same mockery I usually dole out to folks who are proud of 'winning' their 'class'. Edited November 5, 2014 by motosapiens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 If slide lightening is not an advantage, why is it do prevalent? Herd behavior. The same reason people wear air jordans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bikerburgess Posted November 6, 2014 Share Posted November 6, 2014 If slide lightening is not an advantage, why is it do prevalent? Herd behavior. The same reason people wear air jordans. It's a personal preference thing some like the snapper feel, it also looks cool and fit most of us that is the real reason. As a counter point Vogel adds weight to his slide (in addition to the flashlight housing full of weights on the frame) and that seams to work for him Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38SuperDub Posted November 6, 2014 Share Posted November 6, 2014 I've been out the loop - 42 pages - do we have Production Optics division? Is there anything in here worth reading or not really? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhunter Posted November 6, 2014 Share Posted November 6, 2014 I've been out the loop - 42 pages - do we have Production Optics division? Is there anything in here worth reading or not really? BoD shot it down I'll shoot it anyway being I set up scoring at our match Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted November 6, 2014 Share Posted November 6, 2014 (edited) I think one thing to consider here is that I wonder how many USPSA members are even AWARE of this proposal. I spoke to a few people at Nationals and excepting those who I shoot with locally, pretty much no-one else had even heard about it. I've been shooting mine for a while now and it's the most fun I've had shooting since I started in this sport about 25+ years ago. My plan for the winter is perhaps to get a 2nd XDM (just so I have a backup) and set it up the same way as my current one, except I might try getting the slide milled out to see if lowering the dot a little bit has any measurable difference on shooting and also to check the weight difference between the two. Edited November 6, 2014 by BritinUSA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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