Production optics

[zhunter]

We as in USPSA, decided to not lead from the front

Pretty sad

[Chris iliff]

Yep, I fought the good fight on this and was an early proponent of PO. It's a sad day when IDPA FIGURES OUT A PIECE OF THE FUTURE MARKET BEFORE USPSA.

I actually spoke about this and wanted USPSA TO LEAD ON THE ISSUE, I guess we aren't the cutting edge of handgun sports.

Sad sad sad.

[Kraj]

The difference is in uspsa if you show up with a red dot we already have a home for you. in IDPA you dont get to play

[atbarr]

The difference is in uspsa if you show up with a red dot we already have a home for you. in IDPA you dont get to play

Not yet.

[BritinUSA]

I said this would happen: http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=164143&p=2214553

[amish_rabbi]

Well if this goes through I guess ill be forcing myself to shoot IDPA again

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

Color me shocked. I really did not think IDPA would pick up on this so fast...

Why the surprise? Smith & Wesson is a controlling influence in IDPA. The CORE needs a division so this makes sense. I am guessing they are discontinuing ESR in anticipation of a 9MM 6 shot for SSR

Edited November 4, 2014 by Round_Gun_Shooter

[Sarge]

IDPA is the perfect place for an optic on a carry gun.

[BritinUSA]

USPSA needed another low-cost division with an optic for increased participation from :

Manufacturers with sponsorship

Law Enforcement (who will ultimately use this technology)

People with vision problems who cannot afford Open

People who wish to be competitive and prefer a reddot but cannot lay down the $5000 or so needed for an Open gun

USPSA needs to figure out where we want this sport to be in five years and what it may look like.

In my opinion the BOD/President failed in this regard, a complete lack of vision for the future and a desire to run this sport the same way they did last year and the year before that.

[bikerburgess]

But your GLOCK or CZ won't be competitive because three will let single actions play as well. So it's not production it's just 10 minor optic

[Onepocket]

Sarge. You are hilarious!!! I almost feel off my chair laughing.

[zhunter]

But your GLOCK or CZ won't be competitive because three will let single actions play as well. So it's not production it's just 10 minor optic

A few DA shots a match is not going to bother me against an SA only gun. Bring it! Typical local match around here is 6 stages, let's say they average 4.5 DA stage starts per match. Typical round count is 185-200, so let's say average of 193. So that equates to 2.33% of the shots I'm at a "disadvantage"! Most stages have an easy target to start on anyway, I have hose a close open target on DA as fast as 95% or more of the SA only shooters.

Nice troll tho

[Racinready300ex]

So PO guns can't compete against custom single action open guns. But custom single action IDPA guns will be no problem. I'd say this works out pretty well then, like Sarge said it's perfect.

[bikerburgess]

But your GLOCK or CZ won't be competitive because three will let single actions play as well. So it's not production it's just 10 minor optic

A few DA shots a match is not going to bother me against an SA only gun. Bring it! Typical local match around here is 6 stages, let's say they average 4.5 DA stage starts per match. Typical round count is 185-200, so let's say average of 193. So that equates to 2.33% of the shots I'm at a "disadvantage"! Most stages have an easy target to start on anyway, I have hose a close open target on DA as fast as 95% or more of the SA only shooters.

Nice troll tho

I made the comment because earlier in this thread I promoted the idea that making a division based on production rules was bad and a more liberal rule set would be a better idea, oddly at that time I was shoot down because you "can't compete with single action guns" now IDPA may do it my way and they are heroes

[OPENB]

Zhunter, you just made the argument NOT to do this division. Open already exist if the advantage is so insignificant.

[zhunter]

Zhunter, you just made the argument NOT to do this division. Open already exist if the advantage is so insignificant.

Comp vs. no comp? Insignificant?

170mm mag vs. 10 round limit? Insignificant?

Race holster vs. Production legal holster? Insignificant?

Slide lightening vs. no slide lightening? Insignificant?

I think not. I think you cherry picked one aspect to your own benefit.

Well done, but you lose

Yes, after a month+ of dry and live fire I see very little difference between a Da and SA start. Is there a difference, sure, but not enough to make a huge difference if you practice a bit.

[zhunter]

But your GLOCK or CZ won't be competitive because three will let single actions play as well. So it's not production it's just 10 minor optic

A few DA shots a match is not going to bother me against an SA only gun. Bring it! Typical local match around here is 6 stages, let's say they average 4.5 DA stage starts per match. Typical round count is 185-200, so let's say average of 193. So that equates to 2.33% of the shots I'm at a "disadvantage"! Most stages have an easy target to start on anyway, I have hose a close open target on DA as fast as 95% or more of the SA only shooters.

Nice troll tho

I made the comment because earlier in this thread I promoted the idea that making a division based on production rules was bad and a more liberal rule set would be a better idea, oddly at that time I was shoot down because you "can't compete with single action guns" now IDPA may do it my way and they are heroes

Biker

I think an SA first shot is going to have an advantage, but if you practice a bit I don't thinks it's a huge benefit. Yes, I've changed my mind on this after lots of practice. Please don't shoot me

[CB45]

IDPA is the perfect place for an optic on a carry gun.

If we could get this thread moved to the IDPA forum, I'd really appreciate it.

[motosapiens]

I said this would happen: http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=164143&p=2214553

it hasn't happened yet, but it will be interesting to see if all 15 of you start shooting IDPA regularly and all show up to the same match.

We've been discussing this for months, and so far I've seen 1 (one) gun that might qualify for prod optics show up to our weekly steel match. I need to see more interest than that before I can support watering down the existing divisions any further.

[BritinUSA]

I have no interest in IDPA.

[beltjones]

I said this would happen: http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=164143&p=2214553

it hasn't happened yet, but it will be interesting to see if all 15 of you start shooting IDPA regularly and all show up to the same match.

We've been discussing this for months, and so far I've seen 1 (one) gun that might qualify for prod optics show up to our weekly steel match. I need to see more interest than that before I can support watering down the existing divisions any further.

I don't think I would shoot Production Optics, but I think you're missing the point.

The point isn't to wait until the demand is sufficiently large that we are practically forced to create the division, the point is to lead the way if that's where the industry is going.

If carry / duty guns with optics are really going to become a major trend of the future (and I think they are if the AR-15 market is any indication), then maybe it makes sense to create the division, connect with potential sponsors, market the sport to new shooters who are interested in these types of pistols, and grow the sport. The potential sponsors of USPSA seem like they are getting smaller and smaller, with even the sponsor-friendly Production division catering mostly to "boutique," custom pistols. This would be a way to "double down" with old sponsors (Glock, S&W, etc) and new (Trijicon, Aimpoint, etc).

Or not. Let's worry about "watering down divisions" while we continue to recognize Revolver even though less than 10 people show up with one at even big area matches.

[BritinUSA]

Exactly, we need to give the major gun manufacturers a reason to invest in USPSA.

Our two custom-divisions (Open and Limited) are dominated by STI/SVI, true there are a few shooting Glocks, XD's, CZ's etc. and that number may increase as the cost of highly customized guns continues to rise.

For the major manufacturers, Glock, S&W, Springfield Armory, CZ, Tanfoglio etc. there is only one division where those guns dominate and that is Production; By offering a second division we may increase participation/use of those guns and thereby grow their increased sponsorship of USPSA.

At the moment we have two back to back Nationals; Single Stack/Revolver and Open/Ltd/Production.

We could in theory grow the sport to have three back to back Nationals;

Classic Nationals : Single Stack / Revolver

Custom Nationals : Open / Limited (& L10)

Factory Nationals : Production / Production Optics

For the latter we could promote Factory teams and a Manufacturers Trophy to the team with the highest aggregate score in both Prod and Prod/Optics Nationals, this may help to promote more sponsorship of teams as well as individual competitors.

Edited November 4, 2014 by BritinUSA

[motosapiens]

I don't think I would shoot Production Optics, but I think you're missing the point.

The point isn't to wait until the demand is sufficiently large that we are practically forced to create the division, the point is to lead the way if that's where the industry is going.

If carry / duty guns with optics are really going to become a major trend of the future (and I think they are if the AR-15 market is any indication), then maybe it makes sense to create the division, connect with potential sponsors, market the sport to new shooters who are interested in these types of pistols, and grow the sport. The potential sponsors of USPSA seem like they are getting smaller and smaller, with even the sponsor-friendly Production division catering mostly to "boutique," custom pistols. This would be a way to "double down" with old sponsors (Glock, S&W, etc) and new (Trijicon, Aimpoint, etc).

Or not. Let's worry about "watering down divisions" while we continue to recognize Revolver even though less than 10 people show up with one at even big area matches.

You make some good point, but I don't think i'm missing the point at all. I don't need to wait until demand is overwhelming. I'm ready to accomodate even a minimal demand *right now* at my local events. So far I have seen no evidence that it's worth the trouble for folks who aren't actually interested in shooting this division to get behind it. However, if someone started recognizing this division locally and got some participation, or got folks to show up for a PO-only match, I could change my mind. Certainly there are a handful of optics shooters at the glocks-only matches, but I'm not yet convinced that handgun optics are nearing a tipping point. As MD of a weekly steel match I brief and orient alot of new shooters and answer alot of questions about what guns are appropriate vs what people have. I just haven't seen PO-style guns as even being a blip on the radar.

I admit that my limited experience with AR optics (one tactical shoot with some LE guys I was training for something else) opened my eyes to that aspect of shooting, but I think that the percentage of AR's with optics totally dwarfs the percentage of handguns with optics. I also work for an agency with 300 sworn officers, and while AR optics are standard now, we haven't even started discussing handgun optics, or really had a significant number of requests.

fwiw, I totally agree that revolver is a silly division to recognize outside of specialty/novelty/classic matches. I would also combine singlestack and L10.

Edited November 4, 2014 by motosapiens

[BritinUSA]

I wonder how many people showed up at IDPA matches with a slide-mounted optic over the past few months.

[Onepocket]

I think they should go down to two classes open and iron sighted. No power factor. Production is no longer production. And for this thread to be moved to IDPA if that's were PO is going.