Production optics

[zhunter]

I read that as a vote to keep production simple, together with the other votes. Look at the statement regarding production being beginner friendly.

Of course a different division doesn't impinge on an existing one, but think of it this way, how man guns are made from the factory to take optics? I can think of like 3, I'm not sure that is a big enough production pool to justify a division.

There are dovetail mounting plates that fit most currently approved production guns

[trgt]

Will be interesting to see who take's the ball and runs with it if it won't be USPSA.

[BritinUSA]

Will be interesting to see who take's the ball and runs with it if it won't be USPSA.

IDPA

[Vlad]

There are dovetail mounting plates that fit most currently approved production guns

I know. So far I've seen exactly ONE in the wilds of NJ ranges. It was a CORE. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with a division, I'm just not seeing a market. Then again, we still have revolver division.

[PKT1106]

Can someone please explain to me why this is such a revolutionary idea? I am not seeing the special-ness of a division for the M&P Core with a red dot.

[trgt]

Around here we have CZ, M&P and Glock with red dot to name a few. Now that reliable red dots are relatively inexpensive, idea was to allow production folks to have an alternative sight option w/o having to go full race gun and reloaded 9mm major to be competitive in their division.

Argument against was they can already run as open minor today. Another argument against was it would 'dilute' production.

In my opinion, if folks starting running open minor and get some visibility, maybe that will help change the attitude over time. Probably didn't help that in many areas, no one has seen this running yet. Singlestack probably got their division after a lot of folks ran their 1911 prior to the division being made?

Edited October 5, 2014 by trgt

[v1911]

Sorry to see that your proposal was shot down.

As for IDPA carrying the torch, that remains to be seen. I don't know about the rest of the country, but there doesn't seem to be any talk of MRDs on guns. That could also be because most would rather practice with there usual gear in preparation for their next major match. Maybe if it becomes a full fledged division and recognized beyond local T1 matches it will gain traction.

[remoandiris]

Somehow I don't think the USPSA forum is an accurate reflection of what the majority of the members across the country think on any issue ...

That being said I have 2 final comments:

1) To those who continue to espouse the idea of "just go shoot open", thoughts of being clueless or ignorant come to mind ...

2). I said very early on in this thread that a nationwide petition representing all of the Areas would be needed to sway the Board and I still believe this to be the only way this will work. As someone recently said, it would be hard even for our Board to ignore a petition with several thousand signatures from all over the country ...

+1 on this!

[bgary]

Sorry to be slow to respond, I'm one of the 8 votes and wanted to give you (at least) my own perspective.

I don't know anything about PO other than what I've read here and in the proposal I was forwarded.

So, I pinged the brain-trust of Area-1 10 SC's, ~60 club leaders, several RMs and past ADs, and a few other people whose opinions I have grown to value over the years.

Not a single one of them came back and said "yeah, we want Production Optics."

O_O

Most of them came back with some flavor of "its an interesting idea, we'll keep our ears open, but for now we already have too many divisions at the club level".

...

So, lacking any strong reason to support it, I "represented the Area" in that vote.

Now, I *will* admit to having three opinions of my own on the matter.

1) I think we have too many divisions, too. But that's water under the bridge. and

2) I don't think it is good for the sport to have a separate division for every variant and sub-variant of gun that someone wants to use. Otherwise we'd have Revolver-8 as a stand-alone division.... and Open Single-Stack... and Open-10, and... whatever. Oh, and we'd separate striker-fired from DA-only and DA/SA into three different "production" divisions (that's already been requested), and ... at the end of all that, we'd end up with 20 divisions and no "competition".

3) but, being primarily an Open shooter I already "get" the value of optics, and having recently shot the Crimson Trace midnight 3gun match, I was totally impressed with the utility of having a laser on a handgun.

Bottom line: I think PO is an interesting idea. I'm open to the discussion. But I don't see broad demand for it, and I worry about making another division work at all the levels of the org (club, section, area and nationals).

ObNote, though, at the *club* level, there's no reason PO couldn't be recognized as a "special category".... the shooters would enter in Open, as the rules require for an optic, but have registration "flag" the shooters who are shooting Production/minor within that division, and give out awards based on performance within that subset. There's nothing to prevent a club-match from giving special awards for anything they want to.... there's also the possibility that USPSA would grant "recognized status" to a match designed around promoting PO, similar to "glocks-only" or 1911-only matches.

Those kinds of things might give us all a better idea of whether there's a groundswell of interest... contact your AD if you want to pursue those?

$.02

Bruce

[atbarr]

Thanks for taking time to explain your reasons for voting no. It would be nice if the other BoD's did the same.

[motosapiens]

Will be interesting to see who take's the ball and runs with it if it won't be USPSA.

As I have said repeatedly, the people who should be taking the ball and running with it are the people posting on this forum who think PO is a good idea. Instead of trying to get USPSA to create a whole new division based on a few dozen people complaining on the internet, y'all should be promoting your own PO match (like some folks do a 1911-only or a glock-only match). You should be showing up with 10 of your friends all shooting PO to local matches and ask the MD to recognize your subcategory informally, or just do it yourselves from the results.

Demonstrate the need and the value instead of just expecting someone else to do the work to provide a game for you to play.

If I see 3 or more PO guns at the steel matches I run, I'll be more than happy to break them out separately. Right now I am only seeing 1, and only occasionally.

[Flexmoney]

Will be interesting to see who take's the ball and runs with it if it won't be USPSA.

IDPA

Steel Challenge, local matches.

[ZackJones]

Steel Challenge, local matches.

Pro-Am as well but there you only have two divisions: Open and Limited so you're still competing against full on race guns.

The BoD has made it very clear they don't want anyone screwing with Production division. You want change then change the division you want to shoot that best matches what you want to shoot.

Given that the Open Nationals are supposed to be in Georgia next year I may start shooting Open with my CORE so I can go shoot at the Nationals.

[The Antichrome]

The idpa mucky mucks around here not only think its an unwarranted idea, they are actually offended by the notion.

[Sarge]

The idpa mucky mucks around here not only think its an unwarranted idea, they are actually offended by the notion.

Goes to show that there just are not many people interested in it. Because we here on enos are such a small portion of competition shooters it seemed like a big deal when <10 guys started saying they wanted PO.

[zhunter]

Just an FYI for all of you who said KC shoots a production gun in Open. You all make me laugh at the absurdity

https://d36tc8clsz1tk5.cloudfront.net/adn-uf-01/0b/pa/0v/0bpa0vYD3l6P6Z6TGQ9w5SpgPRqhZ-qlSirqlMVSczc?response-cache-control=public%2C%20max-age%3D7200%2C%20s-maxage%3D172800&response-content-disposition=inline%3B%20filename%2A%3DUTF-8%27%27Image_from_Riposte_2014-10-13.jpg&Expires=1413226800&Signature=HykWYMnduKpXi-NSnsVSSSjk9Xrz9S9VFmegoZccokAQLX6cmIcsokTi~P6o2Nh3kMCdDrn2tfOMMfuk8MvlOr2o6KYP0kvEiLjV3Zr3w8qTjEXpzKrfy64nvyLyVrff0Drd0Wk3uuIyhhA6NciAdKGnJKm4-TaSFNaSMdbTk0w_&Key-Pair-Id=APKAIWNGPWT6YVKFBWJA

[teros135]

Who said K.C. is shooting a "Production" gun in Open?

[zhunter]

Who said K.C. is shooting a "Production" gun in Open?

teros135

I'm not going to go through the entire thread to give you the names of the people that used KC as an example of a production gun in Open. Feel free, it's all there. And at least two BoD members used that argument in response to emails I sent them

[Sarge]

Just an FYI for all of you who said KC shoots a production gun in Open. You all make me laugh at the absurdity

https://d36tc8clsz1tk5.cloudfront.net/adn-uf-01/0b/pa/0v/0bpa0vYD3l6P6Z6TGQ9w5SpgPRqhZ-qlSirqlMVSczc?response-cache-control=public%2C%20max-age%3D7200%2C%20s-maxage%3D172800&response-content-disposition=inline%3B%20filename%2A%3DUTF-8%27%27Image_from_Riposte_2014-10-13.jpg&Expires=1413226800&Signature=HykWYMnduKpXi-NSnsVSSSjk9Xrz9S9VFmegoZccokAQLX6cmIcsokTi~P6o2Nh3kMCdDrn2tfOMMfuk8MvlOr2o6KYP0kvEiLjV3Zr3w8qTjEXpzKrfy64nvyLyVrff0Drd0Wk3uuIyhhA6NciAdKGnJKm4-TaSFNaSMdbTk0w_&Key-Pair-Id=APKAIWNGPWT6YVKFBWJA

KC is a Glock shooter. He shoots a Glock in Open normally. Is this a recent pic? World shoot maybe? Perhaps he is no longer a Glock team member.

[zhunter]

Just an FYI for all of you who said KC shoots a production gun in Open. You all make me laugh at the absurdityhttps://d36tc8clsz1tk5.cloudfront.net/adn-uf-01/0b/pa/0v/0bpa0vYD3l6P6Z6TGQ9w5SpgPRqhZ-qlSirqlMVSczc?response-cache-control=public%2C%20max-age%3D7200%2C%20s-maxage%3D172800&response-content-disposition=inline%3B%20filename*%3DUTF-8''Image_from_Riposte_2014-10-13.jpg&Expires=1413226800&Signature=HykWYMnduKpXi-NSnsVSSSjk9Xrz9S9VFmegoZccokAQLX6cmIcsokTi~P6o2Nh3kMCdDrn2tfOMMfuk8MvlOr2o6KYP0kvEiLjV3Zr3w8qTjEXpzKrfy64nvyLyVrff0Drd0Wk3uuIyhhA6NciAdKGnJKm4-TaSFNaSMdbTk0w_&Key-Pair-Id=APKAIWNGPWT6YVKFBWJA

KC is a Glock shooter. He shoots a Glock in Open normally. Is this a recent pic? World shoot maybe? Perhaps he is no longer a Glock team member.

World shoot, started today, I'd say pretty recent Edited October 13, 2014 by zhunter

[Gooldylocks]

Just an FYI for all of you who said KC shoots a production gun in Open. You all make me laugh at the absurdityhttps://d36tc8clsz1tk5.cloudfront.net/adn-uf-01/0b/pa/0v/0bpa0vYD3l6P6Z6TGQ9w5SpgPRqhZ-qlSirqlMVSczc?response-cache-control=public%2C%20max-age%3D7200%2C%20s-maxage%3D172800&response-content-disposition=inline%3B%20filename*%3DUTF-8''Image_from_Riposte_2014-10-13.jpg&Expires=1413226800&Signature=HykWYMnduKpXi-NSnsVSSSjk9Xrz9S9VFmegoZccokAQLX6cmIcsokTi~P6o2Nh3kMCdDrn2tfOMMfuk8MvlOr2o6KYP0kvEiLjV3Zr3w8qTjEXpzKrfy64nvyLyVrff0Drd0Wk3uuIyhhA6NciAdKGnJKm4-TaSFNaSMdbTk0w_&Key-Pair-Id=APKAIWNGPWT6YVKFBWJA

KC is a Glock shooter. He shoots a Glock in Open normally. Is this a recent pic? World shoot maybe? Perhaps he is no longer a Glock team member.

World shoot, started today, I'd say pretty recent

Zhunter, he is the captain of the Glock shooting team. He has a Limcat (he posts pictures of it on his instagram from time to time) but he shoots Glock 34's completely Zev'd out for Open. They are as much of a full custom race gun as that Limcat by the time he is shooting them.

The ONLY part of them that is made by Glock is the frame.

::ETA:: This is a picture of his gun, without the optic on it.

893089_10154028565830471_2994197155435007713_o.jpg

Edited October 13, 2014 by Gooldylocks

[beltjones]

Just an FYI for all of you who said KC shoots a production gun in Open. You all make me laugh at the absurdityhttps://d36tc8clsz1tk5.cloudfront.net/adn-uf-01/0b/pa/0v/0bpa0vYD3l6P6Z6TGQ9w5SpgPRqhZ-qlSirqlMVSczc?response-cache-control=public%2C%20max-age%3D7200%2C%20s-maxage%3D172800&response-content-disposition=inline%3B%20filename*%3DUTF-8''Image_from_Riposte_2014-10-13.jpg&Expires=1413226800&Signature=HykWYMnduKpXi-NSnsVSSSjk9Xrz9S9VFmegoZccokAQLX6cmIcsokTi~P6o2Nh3kMCdDrn2tfOMMfuk8MvlOr2o6KYP0kvEiLjV3Zr3w8qTjEXpzKrfy64nvyLyVrff0Drd0Wk3uuIyhhA6NciAdKGnJKm4-TaSFNaSMdbTk0w_&Key-Pair-Id=APKAIWNGPWT6YVKFBWJA

KC is a Glock shooter. He shoots a Glock in Open normally. Is this a recent pic? World shoot maybe? Perhaps he is no longer a Glock team member.

World shoot, started today, I'd say pretty recent

Zhunter, he is the captain of the Glock shooting team. He has a Limcat (he posts pictures of it on his instagram from time to time) but he shoots Glock 34's completely Zev'd out for Open. They are as much of a full custom race gun as that Limcat by the time he is shooting them.

The ONLY part of them that is made by Glock is the frame.

::ETA:: This is a picture of his gun, without the optic on it.

893089_10154028565830471_2994197155435007713_o.jpg

That's a Glock 34? Wow. I think I'll stop reading your comments about KCs Open Glocks.

[Gooldylocks]

You are correct sir, I misspoke about that one in particular. That was just the first picture that came up when I googled it. However, he normally does shoot a 34, and a 17 for steel.

But regardless, it is still completely different than a production optics gun.

::ETA:: for example

Edited October 13, 2014 by Gooldylocks

[Gooldylocks]

This is turning into a bit of a thread drift but I don't much care... Anyway i hopped on his IG and low and behold, he does shoot 17's now. That first picture I posted is one of his pair of new ones, which are both 17s.

::ETA:: I don't know if you will be able to see it if you don't have instagram, but there you go.

http://instagram.com/p/sxbAgbKRZL/?modal=true

Edited October 13, 2014 by Gooldylocks

[bikerburgess]

Just an FYI for all of you who said KC shoots a production gun in Open. You all make me laugh at the absurdity

https://d36tc8clsz1tk5.cloudfront.net/adn-uf-01/0b/pa/0v/0bpa0vYD3l6P6Z6TGQ9w5SpgPRqhZ-qlSirqlMVSczc?response-cache-control=public%2C%20max-age%3D7200%2C%20s-maxage%3D172800&response-content-disposition=inline%3B%20filename%2A%3DUTF-8%27%27Image_from_Riposte_2014-10-13.jpg&Expires=1413226800&Signature=HykWYMnduKpXi-NSnsVSSSjk9Xrz9S9VFmegoZccokAQLX6cmIcsokTi~P6o2Nh3kMCdDrn2tfOMMfuk8MvlOr2o6KYP0kvEiLjV3Zr3w8qTjEXpzKrfy64nvyLyVrff0Drd0Wk3uuIyhhA6NciAdKGnJKm4-TaSFNaSMdbTk0w_&Key-Pair-Id=APKAIWNGPWT6YVKFBWJA

I think you missed the context of those posts. One of the early arguments for production optics was, open is to expensive and you can only be competitive with a tricked out 2011, KC and his GLOCKs were brought up to show that that is not entirely true.