OperationHitFactor

Previous Limited shooter. After taking a very long break I just came back and had to decide on a division. Naturally I considered Limited but then realized. Oh I need to get a reloading press again to load long, ah I need to get a 2011, woah I need to stock up on components, ugh then get a chronograph to load develop for major. Then I realized the numbers for limited are dying and I don't want to be the last one holding a $5K .40 cal 2011 with couple grand in ammo. So... yeah... nope Then you look at Carry Optics, easy to find cheap guns in every flavor and tons of red dot sights to pick from. Also 9mm minor, factory ammunition is competitive and trouble free. Easy choice I can go start training to be ready for the Fall matches. Plus the entire commercial market is using carry optics guns so easy to resale. Now Limited Optics - This one was actually enticing and I might end up here. Since it is 9mm minor, no need for load development. Let's face it, .40 is dead across the industry not just USPSA. Limited might have a better chance if it dropped to minor power factor for 9mm but that is going to make some people real mad that have .40 major guns now. Another pro to 9mm 2011 is it opens up potential buyers outside of sport shooting when we flip our guns for new. I have friends who have never and will never shoot a competition but they have 9mm 2011s or Double Stack 1911s. Plus optics are hear to stay. Nobody is going back to iron sights, ever, like never ever. Limited was incredible and had an amazing run, but this is it's swan song. RIP Iron Sights 1450 - 2023 RIP .40 Cal 1990 - 2023

Update: Now that I have spent some significant time with both over the last month. I can tell a difference between the 47 recoil impulse vs the 17. Not that one feels better, it is just different and clocks different with drills. Also having the RMR cut into the slide vs the MOS cut is also noticeable in back to back drills indexing. I consistently shoot the 47 better under time and I am not sure why. For some reason my hit factors are consistently better. Not by much, but numbers don't lie. I have absolutely no idea why either, maybe the recoil impulse of the 47 due to the shorter 19 recoil assembly paired with my grip just works for me better. I am truly puzzled, for no discernable reason I shoot one better over multiple weekends and practice sessions. Also, I actually found some Glock alternatives I really like. Shot the Canik Sfx Rival-S and the Springfield Echelon as well. I would need more time with them to really gauge and form opinions but I didn't hate them. I also finally tried the SRO and RMR HD. The Canik with the SRO was a dream to shoot. I might have to swap somethings around and pick one of these up. I cannot really see it replacing my Glocks, but for sure it is a fun range gun and maybe competition specific gun. I may grab one and run some drills over the months ahead. I would never consider this for a defense or duty gun but it is a lot of fun. The Springfield Echelon was solid, didn't hate it, not really anything I was super excited about or willing to change for. I did really like the RMR HD solid upgrade over the RMR if it proves to be as reliable. I will be curious to see what Springfield does with the Echelon line in the future. For sure the Echelon is way better than the XD series. It is kind of like the Smith & Wesson M&P series for me, seems great but don't see the point in changing from a Glock.

Right! It's kind of gone the way of the ArmaLite Rifle 15 or Colt 1911. Some custom, some cheap, lots of components, lots of companies, lots of arguments on what is better and why, some legit, some snake oil. In the end, buy what you like and shoot. If it's anything like the AR-15 or 1911 now 2011... We'll be debating for decades to come on what is junk standard, optimum, and premium

Hello Enos Forum, Skip ahead a few paragraphs to get to the review or skip this in general. TLDR - Glock 47 is okay, it's a Glock 17 Gen 5 MOS. Nothing special. Everything else below is just me getting back to Enos Forum and USPSA with a bunch of rambling. Backstory and Plans - After a long extended break I am about to return to USPSA, wish me luck. A brief skim of the rules it would appear my equipment fits nicely into Carry Optics Division. Maybe that will change in the future but for now that's the plan. I shot USPSA over 10 years ago in my late 20s at the time I was a Criminal Justice Training Coordinator in Florida. Basically I filed paperwork and scheduled courses for active LEOs aka desk duty admin guy & one of the finest LEO paperwork dudes in Florida. In the process, made friends with my range coordinator, then met a lot of active Patrol, SWAT and GWOT vets. Had so much fun training with those guys and learned an absolute ton through knowledge transfer. In the midst of all that I kind of got away from USPSA. I tried Open, Limited and Production, went through the buy skill and gear acquisition syndrome phase, the gunsmith phase. As we all know or will learn, nothing substitutes training. You have to get those reps in and until you accept, everything else is just a distraction. Ultimately life happens so I spent more time with my hero friends who were busy trying flashlights and slide ride dots on guns it was a whole equipment failure extravaganza only I did it for fun and their lives depended on it. Basically all that Magpul Art of Pistol and Rifle stuff was super popular at the time and there was a ton of new toys to test. Eventually, I left the LEO world and found myself in banking and finance but still trained regularly with friends. Earlier this year I got a membership at Volusia County Gun Club near New Smyrna Beach since I don't have the FDLE and County Range access anymore. I walked by the local USPSA match watched a few rounds and was like oh I miss this. So here we are getting my gear sorted, still need to renew my USPSA and Practiscore Memberships so I can turn up at a local match. Also I needed to post on Enos Forum because the people I met here and at matches rocked. So hello old friends and new friends. The Road to a Glock 47 - Over the years I settled on, then trained with a Gen 3 Glock 17 which eventually led to milling for an RMR. Probably 50K+ rounds on that platform, but I occasionally tried the Sigs, FNs, Walther, M&Ps insert new polymer 9mm here. I guess I've just got so comfortable with the 17 platform that I kind of just accepted that I am a Glock 17 guy for better or worse. I have also tried every Glock trigger imaginable but I like a stock trigger. Seems like most aftermarket triggers give up the reset and I personally like a firm, positive reset. I don't really care about a super light trigger and as for the break, eventually with enough reps you get used to it. Earlier this year, I upgraded to the Gen 5 17 then added a Zev Duty Slide with RMR so I could switch between Optic and Irons. Yes, skipped the Gen 4 completely. I like to have a back up gun set up exactly the same so when my main gets crazy hot from drills or I am taking a training course and a part fails I have one on standby. My range bag consist of 2 similar Glocks, like 12 mags, some Glock specific tools, and a handful of replacement parts and springs. At any rate, my back up Glock 17 Gen 3 was a baby rattle, it served me well through 2 barrels and countless parts and springs but it was done. So I decided I'll just grab a Glock 17 Gen 5 MOS to go with my Zev17Gen5Glockything, went to my local gun shop guy he was like, "I just got this thing in it is a Glock 47". I asked, "what it was and if it was good?" To which he replied, "it's stupid but you'll probably like it and it appears the Glock 17 Gen 5 MOS is gone for the foreseeable future." We took it apart and it appeared to be a Glock 17 with a reduced dust cover and a 19 recoil spring. At any rate, I was said, "it'll work" so I bought it. Glock 47 Review - It is a game changer the best gun I have ever owned. I am kidding, it's a Glock full size in 9mm and I can't tell a discernable difference from my 17. I realize there is this whole new modularity thing in the gun world and I guess this was scientifically designed for a Border Patrol Contract for swapping parts. Bottom line it is just like a 17, YMMV but for me it feels the same, with drills time is the same. It was a okay fine this will work for me purchase. So the 47 and Gen 5 17 with a ZEV Duty Slide with matching RMRs paired along with SurefireX300 are my set ups. Final thoughts and opinion, I think Glock the 47 is fine and works as a substitute for a 17 Gen 5 MOS. Maybe one day I will buy one of those fancy gucci glocks, built for the most discernable and distinguished Glock Aficionados. For now I am not going to dwell on equipment and I hope I learned my lesson about the gear race. It works, now I need to do my part and train for some USPSA matches and have some fun. If you made it this far I am sorry... and thanks... Hope to see some of you this fall at some local Central Florida matches and here on Enos Forum. Peace, Mike

Thanks for the suggestions. I'm going to see if by chance something used is out there for an open gun. If not, put in an order and shoot carry optics until the build is done.

If the right package comes up I might scoop something up used. I figured carry optics will get me back in the loop. Someone will likely have a package for sale I can inspect before I buy here locally. I'm very particular so I'd rather just buy once and cry once.

On the open gun I'm likely just going to go with the classic Cmore. I noticed the RTS2 is on a lot of new builds so might just grab that for carry optics then throw the same thing on the open build if I like it. I'm going 38 SC so I wasn't sure is smaller profile of the RTS2 was more for 9 major ejection port clearance.

Hello all, So I've been away from USPSA for about 5 or 6 years. The whole mid 30s career shuffle took me away. At any rate, I'm about to jump back in and decided on Open. While I was away the guns have changed a bit, shorties, stroked, titanium comps, tungsten sleeves, full length dust covers, metal grips, endless red dot options, and oh my build prices have increased (not a criticism just and observation). I'm definitely going to have to do a bit of research before I stroke a check to one of these fine builders and drop 6 to 8 grand. Then there will be the whole 6 to 14 month wait. So until then... Carry Optics! I'm going to grab a Glock 17 or Sig X5 just to get back on the range and catch a few matches. My question: Which dot?? I looked at a few different options, Delta Point, RMR, Romeo, RTS. Honestly they all have a good enough window and dot to get the job done. So not really looking to debate all the individual characteristics. Which one seems to be taking the abuse the best?? Thanks

If not for men with guns willing to kill for laws they don't agree with, what power would politicians wield? If politicians served the interest of the people they wouldn't need force, they would have the power of the people.

I tell kids coming up who are unsure they should just be a fireman if they have the desire for public service and I work as an Academy Coordinator. Everyone has an opinion, I always just put it back on them. Ask them who their District County Commissioner is, who the Sheriff is, who is on the City Council, who is the City Manager?? Then I expand on to State and Federal Government and how they need to recognize their issue is with politicians not police officers. I just use the moment of opportunity to get on my soap box, LEO's follow and enforce the law, not write the law or dictate policy.

Trojan Bomar STI Slide, CK frame, and KKM Barrel. I basically built an Eagle clone but with a flat top using top notch parts. Finished with Graphite Black Cerakote.

Mass issue is the actual test of a concept's applicability to LE. THATS why I included a time frame. It won't happen in the next 20 years if ever . Having a couple scattered teams here and there isn't much for demand or proof of concept. Shields, Revolvers, Thermal Cameras, Suppressors, Night Vision, Laser Light on Revolvers for the guy carrying the shield and/or Optics are all widely used but not always standard issued due to budgets and City Hall or County Commission politics. HOWEVER since you wanted to go there, optics can be super useful for clearing a room or house in a low light situation with a guy who has barricaded himself and girlfriend into a back bedroom. Throw in a little smoke or gas and guess what you can't see sights through your goggles for the guy now holding a knife to her. Basically any call after dark would be useful with an optic because you cannot see your sights with the mounted flashlight underneath. Night sights don't actually work all that great so it evolves into point shooting looking over the slide. There is a lot of discussion in LE communities of how certain situations Optics can be a huge advantage. Granted the day shift guy working in broad daylight probably won't benefit all that much from an Optic, but most likely he's command staff just trying to get to lunch and back. Since that day shift guy going to lunch and back approves the budgets you are right it probably will not be approved. So you are probably right good sir, I concede. Exactly, why would anyone want or get a optic slapped on their gun when training dosent even happen. HOWEVER since you wanted to go there, the RMR'ed guns that LE guys are using wouldn't fit into the narrowly requested ProOptics rules set described in this thread. Look at the RMR'ed guns LE guys are using all you'll also find features like full stippling(not legal), undercut trigger guards(not legal),grip recontouring(not legal),cut near the mag well for ripping stuck mags out(not legal), backup irons(not legal)extended controls for use with gloves(legality depends on which parts used). I would love to be a fly on the wall for that guy who does this to his duty issued firearm. It would be hilarious, because most agencies have strict policy on this. On the other hand, I love a good rebel sticking it to the man, to heck with policy. So you are probably right good sir, I concede. ​A optic isn't any different. The departments that are liberal enough to approve a optic usually don't mind the other things. Go ask Dave Bowie who he's been building optic duty guns for for the last 15 years. See how that went? The division that is claimed to be a place where these guns can be competitive in dosent even allow for a majority of these type of guns that are already out there. What!? Huh!? How'd did what go? Okay you're right, I'm stupid, I concede. A majority A majority of the "ProOPtics" guns that are already out there would be ILLEGAL for production optics division. Don't get all smug. I conceded and said you were right already. What the heck do you want!? We are off topic at this point and not making much sense so let's end this right meow

That's funny,I have less invested in my open gun than you have listed for PO, but I using your logic you need to start the PO list with a Tanfoglio stock 2 or 3 that's all worked over so that ups it another $1500 and you are still going to want to reload so that cost needs to be there as well You're probably right. It was just a guesstimate not really scientific more of a soap box rant. Production with a Stock 2 and a Dillon is just as expensive as Open. Open guns can be had for a decent deal from time to time. Maybe at the end of the day we just need to shoot Open minor and shut our dirty yappers, but I want to shoot Production Optics!

You are absolutely insane if you think LE will be using RMR's in the next 20 year for mass issue. He said nothing about mass issue or twenty years. Some LE agencies already issue them to specialty units. All this talk of making a competitive division for people with poor eye sight is hilarious. If you have poor eye sight, you won't be competitive period. Stop kidding yourself. Some people can see the targets fine, they just can't see the front sight, reading glasses don't work for shooting. This type of vision loss effects everyone at some point in their life, because our eyes age. Optics help solve this problem. Mass issue is the actual test of a concept's applicability to LE. THATS why I included a time frame. It won't happen in the next 20 years if ever . Having a couple scattered teams here and there isn't much for demand or proof of concept. Shields, Revolvers, Thermal Cameras, Suppressors, Night Vision, Laser Light on Revolvers for the guy carrying the shield and/or Optics are all widely used but not always standard issued due to budgets and City Hall or County Commission politics. HOWEVER since you wanted to go there, optics can be super useful for clearing a room or house in a low light situation with a guy who has barricaded himself and girlfriend into a back bedroom. Throw in a little smoke or gas and guess what you can't see sights through your goggles for the guy now holding a knife to her. Basically any call after dark would be useful with an optic because you cannot see your sights with the mounted flashlight underneath. Night sights don't actually work all that great so it evolves into point shooting looking over the slide. There is a lot of discussion in LE communities of how certain situations Optics can be a huge advantage. Granted the day shift guy working in broad daylight probably won't benefit all that much from an Optic, but most likely he's command staff just trying to get to lunch and back. Since that day shift guy going to lunch and back approves the budgets you are right it probably will not be approved. So you are probably right good sir, I concede. HOWEVER since you wanted to go there, the RMR'ed guns that LE guys are using wouldn't fit into the narrowly requested ProOptics rules set described in this thread. Look at the RMR'ed guns LE guys are using all you'll also find features like full stippling(not legal), undercut trigger guards(not legal),grip recontouring(not legal),cut near the mag well for ripping stuck mags out(not legal), backup irons(not legal)extended controls for use with gloves(legality depends on which parts used). I would love to be a fly on the wall for that guy who does this to his duty issued firearm. It would be hilarious, because most agencies have strict policy on this. On the other hand, I love a good rebel sticking it to the man, to heck with policy. So you are probably right good sir, I concede. See how that went? The division that is claimed to be a place where these guns can be competitive in dosent even allow for a majority of these type of guns that are already out there. What!? Huh!? How'd did what go? Okay you're right, I'm stupid, I concede. To the eyesight thing, at that point, the eye sight isn't the only thing making a person non competitive if they where in the 1st place. This is just one more cry from the guys who started IPSC with tunnels,walls, long streches between shooting boxes,and summersaults to test gear retention, but now want to dumb the sport down for them now that they are older. I'm 32 with perfect vision. I want to shoot Production Optics because I like to shoot with an optic. This is not an instance of people trying to dumb a sport down. Yes, people mentioned vision only to support the argument/want/need for another division. I am stupid so you are probably right good sir, I concede.

You are absolutely insane if you think LE will be using RMR's in the next 20 year for mass issue. He said nothing about mass issue or twenty years. Some LE agencies already issue them to specialty units. All this talk of making a competitive division for people with poor eye sight is hilarious. If you have poor eye sight, you won't be competitive period. Stop kidding yourself. Some people can see the targets fine, they just can't see the front sight, reading glasses don't work for shooting. This type of vision loss effects everyone at some point in their life, because our eyes age. Optics help solve this problem.

Production optics division sounds fun. Open is pricey to get into and pricey to maintain. Many people like shooting with an Optic but the price to play is too expensive. Open $4000-$5500 for a new gun, $2000-$3000 for a used gun plus another $500-$1000 for repairs on someones used problem. Lets just say$3500 for a gun $600 for a Dillon, oh you want the case feeder and bullet feeder, oh now the 1050.... lets just say $1000 for reloading press/equipment. Mags? you want them tuned right? Lets just say $500 Hours of frustration tracking down N105, Autocomp, HS6, Silhouette,etc... 40 per pound need sample lbs of various different magic dust to develop secret flat load. I'm being conservative... lets say $300 Brass, well after you spend 100 hours reading every 38 super vs 9 major load on the internet pull your eyes out and bring yourself to the edge of insanity you still have to buy brass. Guess what buddy, there is also super comp and 38 super TJ too! We won't include the doctor or therapy bills. Let's say $150 for 9 major $300 for 38 super... So $200 That is $5500 not including aggravation, starvation, therapy, and at least one failed relationship from reading 38 super vs 9 major during "our time". Production Optics Glock/M&P/Beretta/XD/CZ $500-$600 Milled slide and Cerakote refinish $200-$400 Magazines $80 Optic $250-400 2000 rounds of factory 9mm $550 That is about $2000 without aggravation, starvation, therapy, and she is happy because "our time" is not spent reading the entire internet to decide between 38 Super and 9 Major. Cheers,

The 17L slide weighs the same as a 34 slide which is only 2 ounces more than the 17 slide. The added barrel length will add a few extra ounces as well. Whether this is too much weight out front would depend largely on the shooter. Maybe it would be hard to point/drive into the target maybe not. You might get some benefit from the extra weigh out front paired with the added down force of the comp. The comp can create more torque from the leverage of being further in front of the gun. The trade off from the added down force vs more weight to drive/point the gun would be highly subjective. It would certainly be a cool project, just don't go into it expecting amazing performance and also realize resale value would be low. Also it could be a stinker and you will invest time and money only to realize you hate it. There are several barrel manufactures who might take a special order to cut a threaded 17L barrel. It just might take a while to get the order to process. As for the coffin cut sight tracker yikes! It would effect the unlocking of the gun and most likely be timed all wrong. Then again if you are really handy it could be awesome. I'm guessing a trashed slide and trashed barrel are more likely the result of this experiment. Hybrid barrels still lock up to the top of the slide on the sides of the hybrid rib, so you would need the comp/barrel to make contact toward the front of the slide. This sounds like an expensive disaster of frustration. At any rate, if funds are tight and you can't afford the expensive mistake I wouldn't jump into this project. On the other hand, if you are prepared to take a potential loss for the sake of science then I say go for it!

Brazos Manny Dot for me, because I would go too fast causing slop in my accuracy. If you are accurate and slower on speed try the bigger lightening rod to speed up. I like both for different reasons, but currently I'm focusing on Alphas so the Manny Dot gives me a better sight picture for tight technical and distance shots.

Hello, The final verdict on the STI Edge. I feel the overall value of the gun is pretty decent. If you are a weekend/local match warrior that wants a solid gun with a lifetime warranty, I feel it is a pretty good buy. If you need a back up gun to throw in the range bag in case your main mojo takes a dump on you, I feel it is a pretty good buy. If you can only buy one gun you plan to shoot the snot out of and travel across the country to some major matches, this is where it gets a bit tricky. I have owned two samples of the STI Edge. I have since sold them both, one now resides in Hawaii as a back up, the other is down the street with a good friend. Word from Hawaii the Edge is running great, but mostly sits in the range bag. I did swap the ejector and put in an Aftec extractor before sending it off because I could never get consistent ejection. The Edge down the street from me has been back to STI once for a new frame and needed an Extractor swap due to a crack. Since then it has been great, running for many thousands of rounds on stock STI parts. I know a lot of people say to buy a custom, which is a solid argument "if" you have a custom builder that is nearby or one you really trust. The reason I say nearby is because unfortunately some builders are complete jerks. I have had some really bad experiences with builders a few states away when you are just a voice on the phone. I waited a year for a gun to have it a relatively short time before it broke, then was told he had new guns to build and mine wasn't a priority. I had another builder take my deposit then after 8 months tell me I was rude for checking back so frequently after I was quoted 6-8 weeks. Three months later (over a year from initial deposit) and after a letter from my Attorney I got my $1500 back. I tried the used market, which I bought a super sweet custom for $2900 that I shot 2 matches with then the slide cracked. Builder apologized but since I wasn't the original owner, I was very politely told to pound sand. So the custom route can be a mouse trap, while STI you get exactly what you expect. STI is a solid gun that might have some problems, but they will fix no questions asked any and every time. Now to disclaim, there are some great builders out there, so by spending a little extra money you can get an excellent custom for about 30-40% over an STI. Just do your homework, get quotes, get timelines, and get warranty information if you can buy from a guy in the local circuit you get to see face to face custom can be wonderful. I live in Central Florida and have the luxury of some pretty great guys to choose from. If you live in an area where you do not have any local builders find out who people in your area have had good luck with buying out of area. WARNING!!! Do not base your decisions on looks. I made the mistake of getting caught up in all the fancy cuts and lines not considering reliability and performance. If you have the money and looks are very important to you then buy two pretty guns, hopefully they work, but if not your rich so buy some more. For us normal guys, find a builder who puts reliability and performance above all else. My current guns are pretty basic and not very special looking, but they have perfectly fitted top quality parts. If I couldn't find a builder I felt I could trust or I was on a limited budget, I would by a factory STI Edge again. As for regret, don't regret buying an STI Edge, they hold there value fairly well and any problems are covered by the lifetime warranty. The Dawson CRP is a pretty good bargain, it has some decent upgrades and should serve you well. I personally haven't owned a Brazos or Dawson tuned gun, but I could see the value. My recommendation if a 2011 must be had is buy a used STI Edge or Eagle with 3000-5000 rounds, which can be found at a pretty good price point and most likely any bugs would have been reveled and/or remedied by then. Plus you still have the lifetime warranty if things go wrong. Now if it is a new shooter trying to get into Limited on a limited budget. By a GLOCK 24 or 35!!!! Seriously!!!! or shoot production!! Total set up is under a $1000 for a complete rig with a few necessary upgrades. Focus on learning the sport, focus on the shooting fundamentals/foundation, and buy lots of ammo. Mentally most people, myself included, are/were just trying to buy their way out of bad shooting skills. It is so easy to get caught up in the equipment race because mentally we don't want to admit we suck. We blame everything then convince ourselves spending thousands of dollars will make us better only to discover we spent our money to discover we still suck. Buy a Glock, then spend money on training and ammo for practice. I promise this is the better route. After you practice and train hard, then after a couple years go buy yourself your dream gun. You will meet builders along the way and gain priceless knowledge. All this is of course very subjective to a person and relative to their financial situation. Good luck, and enjoy. Later, Mike

With N105 you should be fine. That's got to be a pain to load without making a mess. People used to push there guns that high with that powder when the power factor was higher.

Powder, oal, primers, grains, new brass or used, load data? Barrel length, compensator, ports? Pics of the brass and primers from different angles would help. Data dude! We need more data! Ha!

As for your question. Yes people shoot factory 40 ammo in matches so yes they are shooting higher than required power factor. That is one reason we reload. Softer shooting custom ammo shoots much softer than factory 40

If you load 40 to factory spec or buy factory ammo it can be anywhere from 170-185. Defense ammo can be around 190. If loaded correctly with the right powder it's perfectly safe. Do not try to load N320 or titegroup to that velocity though.

Your milage may very, but the directions that come with the Aftec are very useful. Oh and by useful, I mean the right way to install the Aftec.

Bushing Barrel for 9mm with a regular slide recoils and transitions well, but a 9mm bull barrel with a lightened slide is great too. A bull barrel with a regular slide is fine and will work as well. Pick one and practice, you'll get used to it, besides one over the other won't give you a considerable advantage. That being said a lightened slide with a bushing barrel, a 9lb spring paired with a smidge of 231 is the best set up. I have no factual information or stats to prove why it is the best, but it feels great.