Production optics

[zhunter]

We have had NO confusion in our prior matches, thanks for your concern

[RIIID]

An "Outlaw" match is what it is.

Rich

[Rick88]

Outlaw matches seem to be showing up everywhere, I shoot them so I can use a magwell on my production gun.. :-)

[Sarge]

Wow. You can't advertise a match as a USPSA match if it really isn't one. You say it's local and there is no confusion for the locals. But you must realize somebody could be traveling and come across the match info and decide to come and shoot. I just don't see how you have been beating the PO drum so hard when you are not even affiliated with the organization you are trying to change?

[zhunter]

Wow. You can't advertise a match as a USPSA match if it really isn't one. You say it's local and there is no confusion for the locals. But you must realize somebody could be traveling and come across the match info and decide to come and shoot. I just don't see how you have been beating the PO drum so hard when you are not even affiliated with the organization you are trying to change?

Wow, some pretty big assumptions there Sarge!

First of all, we are a new club getting ready to host our 3rd match. We have initiated our paperwork for affiliation! And I'm a Life member, so I hardly think any of your ASSumptions are correct except yes I have been "beating the PO drum" and proudly so, hence I'm offering it in our match.

So, would you like to apologize in this thread or in a PM for the crap in your post?

[hvsmith]

Apologize for what? If your club becomes affiliated with USPSA then your PO becomes Open minor, pretty simple, & as long as you want to use the hypothetical term "Production Optics" you should leave any reference to USPSA out of your advertising, because it is not.

[zhunter]

Apologize for what? If your club becomes affiliated with USPSA then your PO becomes Open minor, pretty simple, & as long as you want to use the hypothetical term "Production Optics" you should leave any reference to USPSA out of your advertising, because it is not.

You're right, but it's not at this time is it? So PO it is!!!

If you don't see the errors in Sarge's assumptions I feel sorry for you

Funny, we have waiting lists for our matches, I guess only you PO haters have an issue with what's going on. To each their own

[Racinready300ex]

I don't see where he made any big assumptions. He said you can't advertise a match as USPSA unless you follow the rules. You really can't so no assumption there. He said it's confusing, and it is. When you say it's USPSA and it's not that can certainly be confusing. He also mentioned you not being affiliated, that's not a assumption either. You said yourself that your club isn't affiliated right?

Now I guess he could be assuming you aren't affiliated with USPSA at all, but you could just post your number and we could look it up and see how many years you were a USPSA member before you wanted to start changing the divisions.

[Thomas H]

Apologize for what? If your club becomes affiliated with USPSA then your PO becomes Open minor, pretty simple, & as long as you want to use the hypothetical term "Production Optics" you should leave any reference to USPSA out of your advertising, because it is not.

You're right, but it's not at this time is it? So PO it is!!!

If you don't see the errors in Sarge's assumptions I feel sorry for you

Funny, we have waiting lists for our matches, I guess only you PO haters have an issue with what's going on. To each their own

Seems to me you are getting angry at the fact that you don't understand.

You CAN have PO as a division---if you aren't running a USPSA match.

You CAN advertise as a USPSA Level 1 match---if you are a USPSA-affiliated club.

If you aren't running it by USPSA rules, then you aren't running a USPSA match. If you aren't running it as a USPSA match, then you shouldn't be advertising it as a USPSA match. If you aren't a USPSA-affiliated club, you cannot legally advertise it as a USPSA match.

Basically---you can do what you like, in terms of running your match, including whatever rulesets you like. But the minute you advertise it as a USPSA match, you are telling people that you are a USPSA-affiliated club, running the match by USPSA rules.

And you aren't either one of those things.

[zhunter]

Apologize for what? If your club becomes affiliated with USPSA then your PO becomes Open minor, pretty simple, & as long as you want to use the hypothetical term "Production Optics" you should leave any reference to USPSA out of your advertising, because it is not.

You're right, but it's not at this time is it? So PO it is!!!

If you don't see the errors in Sarge's assumptions I feel sorry for you

Funny, we have waiting lists for our matches, I guess only you PO haters have an issue with what's going on. To each their own

Seems to me you are getting angry at the fact that you don't understand.

You CAN have PO as a division---if you aren't running a USPSA match.

You CAN advertise as a USPSA Level 1 match---if you are a USPSA-affiliated club.

If you aren't running it by USPSA rules, then you aren't running a USPSA match. If you aren't running it as a USPSA match, then you shouldn't be advertising it as a USPSA match. If you aren't a USPSA-affiliated club, you cannot legally advertise it as a USPSA match.

Basically---you can do what you like, in terms of running your match, including whatever rulesets you like. But the minute you advertise it as a USPSA match, you are telling people that you are a USPSA-affiliated club, running the match by USPSA rules.

And you aren't either one of those things.

Without being too harsh, an observant person would see my USPSA number as a link in my signature. I hope that works for you.

For those of you who seemingly have an issue with our match, I invite you to come shoot it, you can register in any division you like. I think you will really enjoy it whichever division you choose.

The feedback we get from our match is amazing. And we have as I stated earlier a waiting list because the first match had so many people sign up that we could not handle so many people with only 6 stages.

Threads were posted on several shooting forums "advertising" our first match, it was NEVER stated it was a USPSA match, it was clearly stated it was a USPSA style match being conducted under USPSA safety rules. Now, Practiscore is a fantastic tool for signups and allows us to have some control over the numbers of people who show up on match day.

I'm sorry some of you have an issue, but we just never seem to be able to make everyone happy, but we are certainly pleasing the vast majority.

I hope you all enjoy your shooting whatever discipline or division you choose.

[Sarge]

Wow. You can't advertise a match as a USPSA match if it really isn't one. You say it's local and there is no confusion for the locals. But you must realize somebody could be traveling and come across the match info and decide to come and shoot. I just don't see how you have been beating the PO drum so hard when you are not even affiliated with the organization you are trying to change?

Wow, some pretty big assumptions there Sarge!

First of all, we are a new club getting ready to host our 3rd match. We have initiated our paperwork for affiliation! And I'm a Life member, so I hardly think any of your ASSumptions are correct except yes I have been "beating the PO drum" and proudly so, hence I'm offering it in our match.

So, would you like to apologize in this thread or in a PM for the crap in your post?

Why would I apologize? I didn't make any assumptions. And if you only knew how unimpressed I am that you are a life member of USPSA.

You being affiliated with uspsa means absolutely zero in this case. So, anyone is invited to shoot your super high speed match that is USPSA style, following USPSA rules? Cool, What classifier are you running this month?

[D.Hayden]

It seems if you want to see the level of participation Production Optics might have.. you have to run it the way Z is trying.. so you can track it, USPSA or not.. any other alternative?

[zhunter]

It seems if you want to see the level of participation Production Optics might have.. you have to run it the way Z is trying.. so you can track it, USPSA or not.. any other alternative?

Correct

That is the point exactly

Many said show us the numbers, so I'm doing it

Unfortunately, some people just wish for others to fail.

[teros135]

Nobody seems to want you to fail. Folks seem to want you to be accurate and truthful in your advertising and match announcements. If you're doing that, fine.

I suspect many would like you to be less aggressive regarding those who don't share your affection for "PO" and to be more polite with those who disagree with you. Thanks!

[motosapiens]

Why can't you have PO as an 'unofficial' subdivision in an otherwise USPSA match?

What stops you from simply keeping track of the PO shooters and recognizing them separately (and sending in the classifier scores as open division)?

Edited December 1, 2014 by motosapiens

[zhunter]

Why can't you have PO as an 'unofficial' subdivision in an otherwise USPSA match?

What stops you from simply keeping track of the PO shooters and recognizing them separately (and sending in the classifier scores as open division)?

I am/we are waiting on paper walk and affiliation.

Once we become affiliated, that is how it will be done.

[zhunter]

What classifier are you running this month?

Please excuse my ignorance, are Classifiers required EVERY MONTH.

[motosapiens]

Why can't you have PO as an 'unofficial' subdivision in an otherwise USPSA match?

What stops you from simply keeping track of the PO shooters and recognizing them separately (and sending in the classifier scores as open division)?

I am/we are waiting on paper walk and affiliation.

Once we become affiliated, that is how it will be done.

Excellent. I, for one, appreciate your efforts and I would love to keep hearing progress reports.

[Sarge]

What classifier are you running this month?

Please excuse my ignorance, are Classifiers required EVERY MONTH.

nope.

[zhunter]

What classifier are you running this month?

Please excuse my ignorance, are Classifiers required EVERY MONTH.

nope.

Good to know, I guess we are all set then!

Thanks for your help

[Thomas H]

Apologize for what? If your club becomes affiliated with USPSA then your PO becomes Open minor, pretty simple, & as long as you want to use the hypothetical term "Production Optics" you should leave any reference to USPSA out of your advertising, because it is not.

You're right, but it's not at this time is it? So PO it is!!!

If you don't see the errors in Sarge's assumptions I feel sorry for you

Funny, we have waiting lists for our matches, I guess only you PO haters have an issue with what's going on. To each their own

Seems to me you are getting angry at the fact that you don't understand.

You CAN have PO as a division---if you aren't running a USPSA match.

You CAN advertise as a USPSA Level 1 match---if you are a USPSA-affiliated club.

If you aren't running it by USPSA rules, then you aren't running a USPSA match. If you aren't running it as a USPSA match, then you shouldn't be advertising it as a USPSA match. If you aren't a USPSA-affiliated club, you cannot legally advertise it as a USPSA match.

Basically---you can do what you like, in terms of running your match, including whatever rulesets you like. But the minute you advertise it as a USPSA match, you are telling people that you are a USPSA-affiliated club, running the match by USPSA rules.

And you aren't either one of those things.

Without being too harsh, an observant person would see my USPSA number as a link in my signature. I hope that works for you.

For those of you who seemingly have an issue with our match, I invite you to come shoot it, you can register in any division you like. I think you will really enjoy it whichever division you choose.

The feedback we get from our match is amazing. And we have as I stated earlier a waiting list because the first match had so many people sign up that we could not handle so many people with only 6 stages.

Threads were posted on several shooting forums "advertising" our first match, it was NEVER stated it was a USPSA match, it was clearly stated it was a USPSA style match being conducted under USPSA safety rules. Now, Practiscore is a fantastic tool for signups and allows us to have some control over the numbers of people who show up on match day.

I'm sorry some of you have an issue, but we just never seem to be able to make everyone happy, but we are certainly pleasing the vast majority.

I hope you all enjoy your shooting whatever discipline or division you choose.

My response (and I assume Sarge's) was based on an earlier comment:

"So, are you going to submit the scores under Open or Production? I see its is a USPSA L1 match (can it really be a USPSA match and have PO?), but since USPSA does not have a PO division, where you gonna put the scores?"

If you didn't advertise it as a USPSA match, then indeed, what I said was irrelevant. On the other hand, since someone else said they saw you advertising as a USPSA L1 match, it seems to be relevant.

He said you said it was a USPSA L1 match---you said, "it was NEVER stated it was a USPSA match, it was clearly stated it was a USPSA style match being conducted under USPSA safety rules" ---so I wonder where the "L1" came from, if you didn't say it?

If it isn't a USPSA match, and you aren't advertising it as such, you can certainly do whatever you like. If you said "USPSA L1 match" then you have an issue. (Multiple, really.)

As an aside, I haven't really noticed that type of membership, or even years of membership has made all that much difference in terms of understanding rules or making good choices, so that seems irrelevant.

[Thomas H]

Threads were posted on several shooting forums "advertising" our first match, it was NEVER stated it was a USPSA match, it was clearly stated it was a USPSA style match being conducted under USPSA safety rules. Now, Practiscore is a fantastic tool for signups and allows us to have some control over the numbers of people who show up on match day.

So, here is the actual signup page for your match. Are you telling me that it DOESN'T say right there "USPSA level I match"?

https://clubs.practiscore.com/ok-corral-action-challenge-december/register

I'll just attach a screenshot here, in case it changes.

So yep---you have problems. Non-affiliated club advertising a Level I match with non-standard divisions. (Amazing how that doesn't match what YOU said you did.)

I note: I told my AD that PO should be a provisional division, to see if there was any interest in it. I figured there wouldn't be yet, but there might be later.

Advertising a USPSA Level I match when it isn't, however, it a different topic entirely.

[zhunter]

I never stated L1 match

Once again it is others who choose to try to find fault in making an effort to do something positive.

[zhunter]

Threads were posted on several shooting forums "advertising" our first match, it was NEVER stated it was a USPSA match, it was clearly stated it was a USPSA style match being conducted under USPSA safety rules. Now, Practiscore is a fantastic tool for signups and allows us to have some control over the numbers of people who show up on match day.

So, here is the actual signup page for your match. Are you telling me that it DOESN'T say right there "USPSA level I match"?https://clubs.practiscore.com/ok-corral-action-challenge-december/register

I'll just attach a screenshot here, in case it changes.

So yep---you have problems. Non-affiliated club advertising a Level I match with non-standard divisions. (Amazing how that doesn't match what YOU said you did.)

I note: I told my AD that PO should be a provisional division, to see if there was any interest in it. I figured there wouldn't be yet, but there might be later.

Advertising a USPSA Level I match when it isn't, however, it a different topic entirely.

Interesting, never saw that, thanks for pointing it out.

[zhunter]

I tried to edit the "L1", but the only options Practiscore provides are:

Level I

Level II

Level III

Nationals

Oh well, let the Haters Hate, I'm over it

I'm just gonna just go shoot and have fun