alma Posted May 26, 2014 Share Posted May 26, 2014 I am sure this must be discussed elsewhere but I agree with this and think L10 is useless. The people who I usually see shooting L10 are doing so only because they want to compete in a smaller pool of shooters to try and get closer to the top of the results. There are more people shooting L10 (all the banned Hicap state) then there are people shooting production guns that have dots. So you want to kill a division that affects many and add a division that has zero shooters. When was the last time anyone showed up to a match with a production gun with a dot? This could offer another 10 round alternative for ban States. Then again, I just pulled up some match results for a California club and it looks like despite the ban Open and Limited have way more participation than L10. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supermoto Posted May 26, 2014 Share Posted May 26, 2014 This could offer another 10 round alternative for ban States. Then again, I just pulled up some match results for a California club and it looks like despite the ban Open and Limited have way more participation than L10. They allow pre ban hicaps in CA/ MA/CO They don't in NJ/NY or HI. L10 is the only division for people with non-production/major caliber guns to compete in when the leave the state. It is not a useless hider division. If you kill it, there is no reason anyone from those states would travel to a major. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilkenstein Posted May 26, 2014 Author Share Posted May 26, 2014 (edited) I am sure this must be discussed elsewhere but I agree with this and think L10 is useless. The people who I usually see shooting L10 are doing so only because they want to compete in a smaller pool of shooters to try and get closer to the top of the results. There are more people shooting L10 (all the banned Hicap state) then there are people shooting production guns that have dots. So you want to kill a division that affects many and add a division that has zero shooters. When was the last time anyone showed up to a match with a production gun with a dot? Piss poor counterargument. People don't show up with a dot on a production gun because there is no division for it. How is that not painfully obvious? You are more worried about people in a few states shooting L10 than what could become a very competitive division THROUGHOUT the country, including those special states. Edited May 26, 2014 by Wilkenstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supermoto Posted May 26, 2014 Share Posted May 26, 2014 Piss poor counterargument. People don't show up with a dot on a production gun because there is no class for it. How is that not painfully obvious? You are more worried about people in a few states shooting L10 than what could become a very competitive division THROUGHOUT the country, including those special states. yes, I would rather keep the shooters we have now, then make a division that there has been zero interest at matches for. Can you show me one instance of a shooter showing up with a production gun with a dot that didn't shoot because there wasn't a division for it. Which there is, Open. How many posting for this division actually have a production gun with a dot on it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted May 26, 2014 Share Posted May 26, 2014 Why would the addition of a new division reduce the mumber of shooters in this sport? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supermoto Posted May 26, 2014 Share Posted May 26, 2014 (edited) Why would the addition of a new division reduce the mumber of shooters in this sport? It wouldn't, Alma was saying we should drop L10. I'm more concern about having a division for shooters we all ready have, then adding another division for shooters that aren't showing up Edited May 26, 2014 by Supermoto Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadyscott999 Posted May 26, 2014 Share Posted May 26, 2014 I currently shoot Open and am actually competitive in A class. Will be M soon. I would shoot this division in a heartbeat. Most of the fun of Open without all the associated costs. You would get a LOT of new shooters, IMO. Production Optics is the way of the future. Do it, or someone else will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted May 26, 2014 Share Posted May 26, 2014 My recommendation: If you contact your AD about production optics, focus on the new division. There's nothing that says we can't have 7 divisions. If other divisions need to go away, that is a separate discussion. I would also suggest this division be identical to the current production division, with the addition of a slide ride optic. If you want to "fix" what you think is currently broken in production, I think that also should be a separate discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jualdeaux Posted May 26, 2014 Share Posted May 26, 2014 IDPA will get a division with optics before USPSA will create a Production Optic division. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick88 Posted May 26, 2014 Share Posted May 26, 2014 I would like to see this happen as well, but if it is going to take 3 years to do it I have already lost interest...You could be right about idpa jumping on this first but on the other hand they may not want a bunch of uspsa shooters with dots showing up at their matches :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted May 26, 2014 Share Posted May 26, 2014 2017 is the first year it could be added officially, but perhaps it could be tried earlier as a provisional division? I'm seriously thinking of getting a Production Gun and putting a DeltaPoint on it just to try it out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted May 26, 2014 Share Posted May 26, 2014 2017 is the first year it could be added officially, but perhaps it could be tried earlier as a provisional division? I'm seriously thinking of getting a Production Gun and putting a DeltaPoint on it just to try it out. I don't understand that? Why does Chris say we have to wait 3 years? I don't see anything in the bylaws or the rulebook that lists such a requirement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted May 26, 2014 Share Posted May 26, 2014 Bylaws: 16.2 Competition Equipment Rules Modifications: Changes to U.S. Division rules affecting personal competition equipment shall be adopted for a specific Division no more frequently than every two years except as may be required to comply with federal laws. Those changes must be published in the corporate newsletter three months prior to effective date. I think that 2014 saw some changes to Revolver Division so the next change would be in 2016... Perhaps Chris thought it was three years and not two, or perhaps the bylaws on the web-site are not current... The question is; does that 2-3 year freeze affect a NEW division or just changes to an EXISTING division? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted May 26, 2014 Share Posted May 26, 2014 Changes to existing divisions can only occur every 2 years. I don't think that has any impact on a new division. We had changes to L10 and Limited in 2013, and then changes to Revolver in 2014. So it's not like changes to one division freeze all division changes for 2 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Anderson Posted May 26, 2014 Share Posted May 26, 2014 I don't think it would apply to a new Division. I also agree with Scott. It's per Division. You can change something in Open one year, and Limited the next. I do have a local guy with a CZ 75 with a dot on top for shooting Steel Challenge. Not sure if he shoots open (where the gun would work) in USPSA or not. I am currently having a discussion in the Revolver forum about what to do with Divisions that don't have enough participation to even recognize them at a Level 3 match. Not inclined to create another division which may or may not have any participation, when every gun that has been discussed can be shot in Open already. It's not like we ban the guns. They just aren't as competitive. If we go down the road fo dividing and subdividing every division till everyone's gun is the ideal platform for that Division we might as well just pass out participation ribbons. I have a Browning Hi-Power that isn't really competetive in Limited or L10 because it's only Minor. Can I have a Limited-13 (minor only) Division? Lots of people own the gun. It's really quite popular. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted May 26, 2014 Share Posted May 26, 2014 We currently have six divisions, Open, Limited, Limited-10, Revolver, Single-Stack and Production, of these only one accommodates a modern sighting system. A few years ago, IPSC abolished the Modified Division which had a declining participation (perhaps owing in part to the fact that IPSC indicated that they were thinking of getting rid of it). The Modified division was as expensive as Open, there has never been a generally affordable division for a scoped gun. As the technology is starting to improve it is possible that guns equipped or capable of adopting a red-dot sight will become more prevalent and with it an interest in using those guns in competition. I see no harm in having the discussion amongst the membership and seeing if the time is right to get ahead of the curve on this one and get a division lined up for it. If the BOD discusses this and decides to seek the opinion of the membership then I think the interest may grow, I think we need to think about where this sport is going to be in 5-10 years and drive the sport towards where we want to be and toward where the technology is taking us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted May 26, 2014 Share Posted May 26, 2014 You are spot on there! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OUshooter Posted May 26, 2014 Share Posted May 26, 2014 Red dots aren't new, neither is mounting them on a slide. I think the real question is the goal of a production optics division to address a technology issue or a political one? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Antichrome Posted May 26, 2014 Share Posted May 26, 2014 ... Not inclined to create another division which may or may not have any participation, when every gun that has been discussed can be shot in Open already. It's not like we ban the guns. They just aren't as competitive. If we go down the road fo dividing and subdividing every division till everyone's gun is the ideal platform for that Division we might as well just pass out participation ribbons. I have a Browning Hi-Power that isn't really competetive in Limited or L10 because it's only Minor. Can I have a Limited-13 (minor only) Division? Lots of people own the gun. It's really quite popular. This. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted May 27, 2014 Share Posted May 27, 2014 Not inclined to create another division which may or may not have any participation, when every gun that has been discussed can be shot in Open already. It's not like we ban the guns. They just aren't as competitive. I'm sure similar arguments were made back when the Production division was formed. I don't know if there is enough interest to justify a new division now or not. I don't think it hurts to have a discussion, and possibly poll the membership. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted May 27, 2014 Share Posted May 27, 2014 Yep. All the guns in every other division can shoot in Open. There are 5 divisions that were created out of the desire of the membership to afford a more level, or less costly, or....division for other platforms. Adapt or die...applicable to many things. I was against L10, the silly 6/8 revolver thing even Production (now I shoot Production) but this is the first major division addition that actually makes sense, is contemporary instead of reactionary and may actually bring in some new shooters... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ctay Posted May 27, 2014 Share Posted May 27, 2014 I think it bears repeating that every gun is able to play in open. That is a pretty weak argument against a pretty good idea. A production gun with a slide mounted optic is on its way to being a mainstream type firearm. It would serve us well to have a spot for them to play. Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alma Posted May 27, 2014 Share Posted May 27, 2014 Red dots aren't new, neither is mounting them on a slide. I think the real question is the goal of a production optics division to address a technology issue or a political one? Slide ride dots are certainly not new but what is new is the vast improvements in size, reliability, and battery life. For the first time red dots are truly "practical" and could easily be at home in any concealed carry holster or function as a duty sidearm. I firmly believe that our sport has helped to situate the red dot platform on this new plateau and I an very interested to see where it goes from here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZackJones Posted May 27, 2014 Share Posted May 27, 2014 I don't know if there is enough interest to justify a new division now or not. I don't think it hurts to have a discussion, and possibly poll the membership. I wonder if they could include a poll in the email blast USPSA just started sending out? That would be one way to reach a large audience to ask the question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bthoefer Posted May 27, 2014 Share Posted May 27, 2014 (edited) Based on my (albeit limited) experience , production optics are at least 3-5 years away from being mainstream. This is mainly due to the issues with slide mounted optics, including cost. What's the point of a division that requires an $800 optic for your $600 gun? I don't think any of the current crop of slide mountable optics can hold up to the round counts of most USPSA shooters. I have seen at least 3 RMR's that failed while mounted to an AR. That is without the battering of being mounted to the slide. I've also seem 3 delta points die in less than 6 months of being mounted on a pistol. Edited May 27, 2014 by bthoefer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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