Club Match Shooters - Consumers vs Helpers

[CHA-LEE]

I wanted to start a discussion about to basic "types" of shooters that attend local matches. The first type would be "Helpers", these are the shooters who show up early, setup stages, share the burden or ROing, Reset the stage between shooters, Tape/brass, tears down stages, etc. These shooters may officially be part of the team that hosts the match or simply jumps in as needed to help move the match forward. The second type would be "Consumers", these are the shooters who show up in time to register, shoot the match, but don't actively participate in making sure that the match runs smoothly. Basically showing up, shooting, working only as needed to reset the stage, then leaving.

Does everyone think that "Consumers" should be accepted or promoted in USPSA? I do my best to bust ass at local matches to help make them happen. I would categorize myself as a "helper to a fault" as a lot of times I work so much that it negatively impacts my match performance. But to me the sacrifice of my shooting performance is worth it as helping the match happen smoothly is paramount in my mind. It does drive me nuts when "Consumer" shooters show up and do the bare minimum of work needed to shoot the match then bail as soon as the shooting is over. So my view on the subject is biased.

From a promotional perspective, when bringing in new shooters, should we be promoting the sport as a "Consumer" activity or a "Helper" activity? On top of that, should being a "Consumer" shooter be an accepted practice? I have heard all kinds of interesting comments about not working by "Consumers", but the one that stands out is "I paid my fee to shoot, not work". This comment in valid as we are all paying to shoot the match. Maybe the solution to this is to have two different entry fees? A "Helper" Fee, and a "Consumer" fee. I am not talking about a $5 difference either which is what I see Helpers getting as a discount for working their ass off all day. I am talking about doubling the entry fee for the "Consumers". Thoughts?

[Lee Cabana]

I don't think a fee difference helps - I've read studies that show people will happily pay a small penalty fee to ease their conscience.

At my matches here in Augusta Maine I include a piece on match etiquette as part of the shooters briefing and feel I get the needed help. There are alway the small group of dedicated that show up at 7:00 am and really make the match possible.

[Chris iliff]

I've been both. I do what I need to do. Sometimes that might be shoot and scoot. Sometimes it's not. Usually I RO. I use to help set up the day before at a couple different clubs. In the last 2 years, not so much. I use to RO big matches, in the last year, not so much. Locals I RO.

USPSA is a volunteer sport at all levels. It should be represented as such to all competitors. I applaud your commitment to the sport. Keep up the good work. For those that pay and then feel they should be able to "skate" on the work? Hmmmm, that's understandable occasionally, life happens,....but it should be the exception.

You might get a group of guys that drive 3 hrs or more to a match once a month. Shooting and scooting for them would not be a problem for me, if I ran that match. Just saying that there could be reasons behind the behavior.

Generally, habitual non workers get called out.

[amish_rabbi]

my regular guys get a break on entry fees when the help set up and RO. I also dont hand out prizes till after tear down, that way i catch a few more people to help tear down

im all for doubling the match fee as a "consumer" thing, my friends will tell me about matches around the world they shoot where they hire locals to tape and reset stages and just work it into the match fee

[Hi-Power Jack]

All depends on what's expected/communicated.

If you want to charge more, some will pay it and others

will dig in and help. I'd pay more.

Some can't help - my hearing problem and physical problems

keep me from helping too often - and so do distances

travelled - it takes my 2 - 2.5 hours each way for some

matches . I don't feel comfortable even RO'ing due to my

lack of hearing ability.

A LOT Depends ... When I worked (my own business) on weekends,

I just barely had time to "show up for the match, shoot it,

and scoot" - didn't have time to get there early or hang

around to clean up. Left my wife to cover for me for 4 hours

as it was.

Not all "scooters" are BAD people - there are valid reasons

for scooting.

I fully understand the frustration of MD's - I can see they

get burned out in a couple/three years - I've had four or five

USPSA shoots permanently cancelled due to "burn out". I fully

sympathize ... Wish I could help more, but really can't.

I'd be willing to pay more to hire some young kids at minimum

wage to help set up, or anything that I can do to help support

the MD and his small crew of regulars.

[Pensfan]

We definitely have a "consumers vs helpers" mindset in our club as well. Our club has a yearly fee of course, of which $100 is deducted off of your annual membership fee with 16 hours of approved work around the clubs' grounds. Setup/Tear Down for each USPSA match is worth 4 hours of work credit. EXTREMELY generous if you ask me... so what happens with us in the spring and summer months we have a lot of people helping. As fall rolls in and we get into winter, the help seems to dry up as everyone has reached their work goals.

Some people help every month well above and beyond their 16hrs and I try to personally thank them each match. Unfortunately there are a lot that I see four times during the shooting year, the rest they shoot and scoot.

[CHA-LEE]

When I was first introduced to USPSA matches it was made clear to me that the sport was based on volunteers to make it all happen. I took that to heart and do my best to pitch in and do what I can to help make it happen. I can totally understand that everyone has a different level of commitment and ability to help. I also understand that shooters some times have schedule or life commitments that require them to shoot-n-scoot or shoot through and leave early.

The main issue I have with the "Consumers" is that they usually have all the time in the world to stand around and chit-chat with people, but no time to actually pitch in and work. I have lost count of how many times I have been busting my hump during a match with a few other shooters pitching in and wonder why we are falling behind schedule then turn around and see a large group of people standing around waiting for their turn to shoot doing nothing. That is when I feel like I have to be the bad guy because I am forced to brow beat the rest of the shooters into working.

If we had a two tier entry fee then I think I would be fine with the "Consumers" not working. This is because the "Consumers" not working is being offset by the club gaining more profits enabling them to make future matches better by being able to buy more props, etc.

Maybe an alternate solution is to simply make everyone a "Consumer" and hire laborers to do all of the work? We might not end up with the exact stages or shooting challenges we want because the stages are being setup by non-shooters but we could be lazy and not need to work while attending a match.

[Sarge]

OK I read the posts about how some just can't help. I get that. But at my match the consumers are just that, consumers. I have some that just won't help no matter how much I spell it out in the shooters meeting that it is expected. I have told them that not helping is in poor taste. Then I have others who will look me dead in the eye and say, "I have other things to do so I'm out of here". I also have other things to do but it is always me and two other guys left standing on the range when all is said and done. My time is just as valuable as anybody else's but I'm willing to sacrifice to make the matches work. I'll only be MD for one more full season and then probably lean towards becoming a consumer.

[yoshidaex]

At the few clubs around our area, those that help setup and tear down shoot for free.

Now this is taking into consideration the match fee is $30 and up around here.

[CHA-LEE]

OK I read the posts about how some just can't help. I get that. But at my match the consumers are just that, consumers. I have some that just won't help no matter how much I spell it out in the shooters meeting that it is expected. I have told them that not helping is in poor taste. Then I have others who will look me dead in the eye and say, "I have other things to do so I'm out of here". I also have other things to do but it is always me and two other guys left standing on the range when all is said and done. My time is just as valuable as anybody else's but I'm willing to sacrifice to make the matches work. I'll only be MD for one more full season and then probably lean towards becoming a consumer.

Your situation makes me cringe. It would be really hard for me to continue to bust my hump every month putting on a match if the majority of the shooters didn't help make it happen.

[shootingchef]

In a perfect world, we would all be consumers. But as it is, we set up, we score, we ro and we tear down because that is how we were taught. So when there is a situation where folks purposefully do not help, let them know and send them on their way. This is a volunteer sport, not a me providing a service for you situation. Be upfront with all shooters and newbies. If they don't want to help, they can find another game.

[ProGunGuy]

I have wondered how big a sport needs get before it get to a professional basis. Seeing that both the major players have close to 25k members each, why not make it more professional like soccer. You have a professional cadre of paid staff like Ro's and set up people. They are scheduled to work and get paid.

the places i shoot USPSA get 60-100 shooters a match. 60x$20=1200. Take a little out of that and hire some folks to do the setup and Ro'ing. everyone pays the same.

would this idea fly??

[AzYooper]

We have some matches here that have a lot of shooters and those matches are run like businesses. There is a regular setup crew that shoots for free and gets to split a set amount of money.

There is a small match here that I had volunteered at for about 4-5 years and you would shoot for free if you were a helper. After that long I was getting burned out. Some nights is was just me tearing down the stages. So I stopped for a while. They would get other volunteers, but they never lasted more than a few months. The number of shooters for the match went down as they found more reliable and convient matches to shoot.

I told the people in charge that the matches in this town are not potlucks they are fast food. Shooters can just show up, sometimes in a wide 4 hour period, shoot and go home. They were convinced enough to offer free shooting and a small amount of cash to the helpers. This helped grow the match and get better stages. Most of the shooters here do not have a problem paying a couple of extra bucks to have someone else take care of the helping.

When the number of shooters gets up above 80 this method more than pays for itself. If your matches do not have that many shooters you will have to rely on volunteers more.

[No.343]

I wonder if providing a caddy service would help. If you are not a helper, then pay for a caddie to do the work for you. It might be cool to have someone carry your bag and tape targets for you.

[blu46and2]

In a perfect world, we would all be consumers. But as it is, we set up, we score, we ro and we tear down because that is how we were taught. So when there is a situation where folks purposefully do not help, let them know and send them on their way. This is a volunteer sport, not a me providing a service for you situation. Be upfront with all shooters and newbies. If they don't want to help, they can find another game.

+1

I generally try to help, not only by showing up early but also volunteering to MD, co-MD, design stages, RO, etc. However, my schedule sometimes dictate that I show up just in time to shoot, help a little with tear down and then scoot - very rarely not even that...it's more like just scoot. Not often (1-2 times per year maybe), but at times that is just the way it is. I like to shoot, as do most people on this forum, I don't care what it is as long as I am behind the trigger of something, and sometimes we are squeezing in a match in between "life". It happens but I like to think that my contributions make up for that and then some. By no means should the shooting sports be advertised as a consumer sport, unless you've paid a hefty match fee for a major match. Those that say, as you stated, "I've paid my $20 match fee..(or whatever the match fee is)...so I don't have to help are just lazy, pure and simple.

Some of the clubs around here offer discounts for helpers and that's great, those that do show up early should be rewarded somehow. But, again, as someone said there are many people that would pay more to not have to help. Anyway, the majority of the shooting disciplines, at least at the club level, are a volunteer sport. As soon as the balance of a club has more consumers than "helpers", that club will generally begin a downward spiral towards non-existence. The few cannot carry the many and when that happens we all lose because that's one less opportunity to shoot a match in your geo - everyone loses.

[MoNsTeR]

I'm the first guy to suggest using prices and markets to shape behavior, but in this situation it's a bad idea. Establishing an explicit price for being lazy changes the mindset and makes it acceptable. Unless you set the fee exorbitantly high, you will get more slacking rather than less. In this case shame and peer pressure are more effective.

Anyway...

I don't know how it is in other places, but certainly in our neck of the woods the people that help are just Better People. Sometimes a guy has to leave early for whatever reason, or an older / injured guy can't work as hard, and that's fine we all understand that. That's different from the guy that shows up at the last minute every time, never tapes a target, and leaves as soon as he can get away with it. But it's really not just two kinds, it's a whole spectrum.

I was a club officer at PSAC/AGC back in 2006/2007. Coming out at 6am and waiting for someone else to open the gate because I'm not a host club member, designing and building a stage, and staying until tear-down was finished, twice a month. On top of that I was helping with setup for and shooting at least 2 other matches a month. It burned me out, big time, and I basically quit the sport for nearly 2 years.

When I came back in 2009 it was basically as a "consumer". I didn't help with setup. I got up at my normal workday time and would arrive near the tail end of signup time. I taped and set steel and picked up brass and ran the board/Palm occasionally, but never worked especially hard. I helped tear down my last stage and then I left. Where I was at in my life, I needed to attend matches in that casual way. If I had made myself setup every time, or joined the board of a club again, I wouldn't have been able to drag myself out of bed. It would have become like work again, in short order. But after taking some time to just have fun, and get back into the groove, I started helping out more. I stepped up to MD at CCPS this year, and I'll do it again next year.

I guess the point of this meandering wall of text is that we shouldn't be too quick to judge people for not working as hard as we might like. If we set a good example for them, they may come around.

[sroe3]

I shoot at a local club that has the prize drawing only after everything is put away. I usually help tear down but I'll work an extra few minutes and stick around for the drawing.

[blind bat]

90% of the time I'm a helper, stage designer, crew, RO and stats guy (10% of the time I need to get home or to work so I don't get divorced). I don't mind the consumers who feel they pay their money to shoot and not much else. They generally don't do any harm. What drives me nuts are the guys who show up then spend every stage vacuuming brass off the range and end up slowing down their squad.

I've only ever been to one club where staff had to pay to shoot. I was in shock when I was asked for money as part of setup crew and staff. I'm not cheap it was just culture shock as I hadn't even checked to see how much cash I had on me when I left the house. If clubs are charging their staff I can see how it could impact amount of effort _some_ people put forth.

I email out the scores for a lot of matches at two different clubs. I always like to send a "thank you to our all volunteer staff" so the new shooters know that the only entity making money off the match is the range/club.

I've also seen clubs that have a problem with SO/RO range nazis. These are the guys who always show up to SO/RO but never shoot. They just like the "power" and giving uninitiated advice. I'm not sure how best to deal with those guys but I'm almost never the MD so it's not my problem.

[Maksim]

Lol, read this thread as I am working on a stage design for our next months club match.

95% of the time, unless I am out of state at a bigger match or traveling, I am a helper. I think the only match where I was a consumer was my first two matches.... then I helped. In any case, at all of our local matches, it is the expectation that everyone puts away the last stage when you are done shooting. You will have 90% of the people help put everything away.

Setup in the morning is a bit pain in the butt. I shoot 3 local matches a month, 1 of which is my local club. I will design a stage, RO the squad, and put away the stage with others help. At the other two matches, I will at least RO the squad and put away the stage at the end, as the other local clubs are quite a bit further away, with one being an hour and a half without traffic, however I still make sure to give back to the club, and they can always count on me to RO on my squad.

The only match where I did not RO or put away was Nationals this year. lol. But that is what the big fee was for, but in any case, always made sure to help paste and set steel. I do feel it takes a bit away from the shooting if I work, but at the same time, designing stage and RO'ing helps me as a shooter in different regards.

And..... we still pay for the matches. :facepalm:

[Wideload]

We used to have a policy of not posting the scores of shooters that left early, before their squad was done breaking down the stage that they finished on. This was at the discretion of the Match Director/club officers and applied to repeat offenders. It seemed to have addressed the issue in the past.

Edited November 3, 2012 by Wideload

[waynes_world_45]

I am both...at the matches my club hosts, myself and a couple others set up the day before for several hours, get there early the morning of the match to staple targets and stay late tearing down...a handful of regulars show up early to help with the stapling and most everyone helps with the tear down. Then I get home and spend a couple hours scoring. Mind you, I'm 45 minutes from the range, so 2 round trips total about 200 miles on the weekend. 40$ in gas.

At matches other clubs host, I show up on time to register and help tear down. I feel I pay my dues at our match.

We tend to shame anyone who does not help with tear down

Ps ...we charge everybody except the range owner....supplies ain't cheap

Edited November 3, 2012 by waynes_world_45

[Wideload]

...supplies ain't cheap

The $10 we charge per member to shoot our club matches barely covers these costs.

If we charged the fully loaded cost of match staff driving to the range, building the stages, RO support, stage reset, etc... I would think the Consumer price would be $60+ for a 6 stage match, if there were 40 paying "guests" attending the event and match staff's compensation was somewhere around minimum wage.

[These back of the envelope numbers are assuming there is an average of 3 guys per stage build crew and it takes 2 hours for each stage. Each squad is supplied with a RO, score keeper and two guys doing stage reset, and it takes 4 hours to shoot 6 stages. The tear down takes crew of 3 per stage, an hour to break down and store all the equipment. It is not fully factoring in the operations overhead of web site, administrative or other overhead costs.]

Going down this path... I'd also want to see a Tip Jar at registration table and at each stage to split with the staff.

... Personally I'd rather we stay a volunteer sport and things not go this way. I do it to have fun, not as a job for pay.

Edited November 3, 2012 by Wideload

[redial]

It seems most of us are of both descriptions - which I tend to interpret as "most of us help in some way, sometimes" rather than the negative.

Lack of help is the primary reason match personnel burn out and quit. I ran rifle matches for many years and most of those who could help lived so far away as to make helping improbable/impossible. There just wasn't enough local interest to maintain the program. No staff = no help = no matches! It's really that simple.

Mark

[pskys2]

It's not just our sport. We may even be a bit better than the average. due to so many type A personalities which are attracted to IPSC.

I've been a member/organizer/committeeman of many different groups from work place to leisure and if with any given group you have 10% of that group actively engaged in any way, including just attending meetings, you're very blessed.

In our society the load is always carried by a few.

But that shouldn't stop us from trying to be better and I always had a bit of luck if during the new member orientation, or just chaperoning a newbie, constantly stress the pleasure of the work side. From designing a good stage to the experience of seeing many different shooters while R.O.ing.

If you try to influence behavior with a big price break, you will actually polarize those groups even more.

You will have about as much luck with peer pressure and the good 'ol boy thing. Trying to make the helper feel more included in the group and the consumer less so.

For myself when I'm there, I work. Getting me there is the rub.

[AzYooper]

There are two difference parts to a match here that need to be address separately. One is setup and tear down and the other one is helping with stage reset and taping during a stage.

I feel that helping during the match resetting targets and picking up brass should be done by every who is capable. But when I say I like a paid, although lowly paid, setup and tear down crew I feel the opposite. For our matches this would not be very workable. Just one of our ranges has 4 USPSA clubs and this means 4 weekend matches a month. The average at each match is 70-80 shooters and it takes most of us 2, maybe 3 hours to shoot and leave.

If everyone had to stay for setup and tear down We would all carry out 1 target stick and put away one target stick and we would all be there 9 hours. In short order we have only 25-30 shooters and everyone would have to stay and help. The point I trying to make is that if you have about 30 shooters and also have the possibility to bring in more shooters if they can show up, work while there and leave when done, the matches may be able to grow.

Most of our shooters here help during the match, but a lot of time they get distracted by all their talking. I suppose I have done this at rare times, but part of shooting is hanging out with our friends and socializing.