Unannounced Chrono stage at Level 1 Club Match

[1time]

My 3rd or 4th match had an unannounced chrono. it didn't upset me in the least. What was fun was being able to pick out the only three guys to not make declared pf before the match started. The one was "hoping" he didn't grab ammo he loaded for steel by "mistake".

If you are cheating you should be caught. If you are not, why worry about it. If you are new this is a good

chance to see where your ammo is.

[MoNsTeR]

I was at that match and it was awesome. It never would have occurred to me but it is a fantastic idea.

If you failed to meet PF because you were cheating, well, don't expect any pity.

If you failed to meet PF by accident, you learned something today.

If you get all bent out of shape about it, you need to CHILL

Edited February 13, 2012 by MoNsTeR

[BillD]

For a hundred dollars, one can buy a chrono.

[JerryShoots]

It seems to me that it would be really nice to have that chrono available. I have my own but man I sure hear a ton of folks at the bigger matches in Michigan saying "I sure hope these make it" at the chrono stage. This is mostly because they have never had the chance to test their ammo locally. You could even say that failing to give your club members the occasional chance to chrono at their club is doing them a disservice.

It's also nice to have a scale for those divisions that weight matters. I've thanked my lucky stars for the old postal scale that I caught at an auction a few years ago. Even changing mag brands can upset the balance if your close to the limit in things like IDPA CDP, ESP or USPSA Single Stack. It's also so very easy to go over since the weights are kind of based around 1911 and there are so many parts to chose from. I've seen enough 42.5's in the last two years at the local club to be very happy we offered the weigh in. Half an ounce doesn't mean much to us among friends but it could be expensive if one of our members only found out at a major.

Another thing to consider is your club reputation. Would you rather have folks say "Boy those people from The Dark side of the Moon Sportsman's Club always make chrono and always make weight. Honest players there!" or "Geez those folks from Highway to Hell Sportsman's Club never make chrono and there guns weigh more than Howitzers. Bunch of cheatin creeps."

Bravo local club for keeping it by the book. You probably did more of your shooters that didn't make it a favor than any bad turn.

[Skydiver]

For a hundred dollars, one can buy a chrono.

And out of 365 days of a year, how many days will it be sitting in a closet or under the reloading bench?

My $200 chrono only comes out to play for maybe a total of 8 hours a year. But it's been very good to me in giving accurate and consistent readings. No worries at all if ever a surprise chrono stage pops up.

[BillD]

There is a lot of equipment we use very rarely.

It's a piece of testing equipment.

No body says you can't take it out everytime you go to the range, just to check again. That way you'll get a lot more use out of it.

[ctay]

The only issue I see is with new shooters shooting factory ammo. We want to incentivize these guys to come back out, not give them one more rule to worry about. I only started shooting USPSA last year and I remember being really worried about breaking one of the many rules and being sent home or not being able to shoot. I for one would rather have the new guys worry more about breaking the 180 than their WWB making 125PF, especially when the odds are they don't even understand PF yet!

Cheaters are another story of course.

[Maksim]

i was at the match and in the squad which jim is talking about.

wwb made it, cci blazer 115 did not. was a fairly new shooter.

[Skydiver]

The only issue I see is with new shooters shooting factory ammo. We want to incentivize these guys to come back out, not give them one more rule to worry about. I only started shooting USPSA last year and I remember being really worried about breaking one of the many rules and being sent home or not being able to shoot. I for one would rather have the new guys worry more about breaking the 180 than their WWB making 125PF, especially when the odds are they don't even understand PF yet!

Cheaters are another story of course.

Not making minor PF simply means shooting for no score. To a new shooter who isn't hoping to be competitive, then it won't matter. They still get to shoot. To competitive shooter who just grabbed a box of factory ammo, then it'll be more of a blow if they were hoping to win their division/class.

[ctay]

Not making minor PF simply means shooting for no score. To a new shooter who isn't hoping to be competitive, then it won't matter. They still get to shoot. To competitive shooter who just grabbed a box of factory ammo, then it'll be more of a blow if they were hoping to win their division/class.

Shooting for no score still isn't fun to me. I don't expect to win the division, but would like to see where I land.

[Reshoot]

Late last year one of our local clubs had an unannounced Chrono stage. I state that it was unannounced in the manner that it was not communicated that there would be a chrono stage before the match day. During the shooters meeting the morning of the match everyone was let known by the match director that one of the stages would be a chrono stage and your results on the stage would determine your power factor. This was obviously a surprise to everyone in attendance. The vast majority of shooters made their declared power factor but there was also a small group of shooters that didn't. Some of these shooters were upset about being caught off guard by the unannounced chrono stage having gone Minor or sub-Minor. Is having an unannounced chrono stage a benefit to the shooters to ensure that everyone is shooting their declared power factor? Or is it a detriment because it makes some shooters angry feeling like they have been trapped?

Personally I am all for it. If it helps keep people honest or at least let them know that their load/barrel has changed over time to make it not compliant with their declared PF then its a win.

I support chrono at a level I match, announced or unannounced

[motosapiens]

Not making minor PF simply means shooting for no score. To a new shooter who isn't hoping to be competitive, then it won't matter. They still get to shoot. To competitive shooter who just grabbed a box of factory ammo, then it'll be more of a blow if they were hoping to win their division/class.

Shooting for no score still isn't fun to me. I don't expect to win the division, but would like to see where I land.

Then use legal ammunition.

Seriously, I think there is a very valid point raised about new shooters with factory ammo. I'd hate to have to tell someone "haha, store-bought ain't good enough for us". And I can see the point that since chrono stages are rare, some people may be put out by having one unexpectedly, and some people may just not be all that serious. Not everyone is trying to cheat or cut as close as they can. Some people probably just got a load in a book and liked the way it shot and have never had an opportunity to chrono it to verify they are playing with legal ammunition. Maybe a reasonable solution would simply be to have the chrono for informational purposes only, but still publish the informational numbers in the results.

We all have an obligation imho to make a good-faith effort to show up with legal equipment, not just bring whatever we have and see if we can rationalize it being ok. Having said that, I have to admit, I would be nervous if I showed up to a match and had an unexpected chrono stage for score, but that would be entirely on me because I waited so long to get a chrono and a decent powder measure, and I have a stockpile of ammo from before.

[mildot1]

Minimum: the least quantity or amount possible, assignable, allowable, or the like. Guys it is CLEARLY spelled out in the rules! It's not about playing "gotcha" or range nazi, the rules were put in place to keep a level playing field for all competitors. You can come up with all these excuses for not complying but in the end you are either compliant or non-compliant. I don't see the difference between a level 1 or 3, it's called competition for a reason.

If you are a new shooter and really didn't know, well you just got a cheap lesson. You probably weren't in the running anyway.

[pskys2]

Chrono's are way cheap, very much worthwhile if you compete at anything other than a club match.

Range Time, both getting there, doing and expenses are more problematic.

ICORE allows certain Factory Ammo to be used without worry of PF, and it's low enough to start with.

Doesn't the World Shoot, and/or other IPSC upper Level Matches, allow for the use of specified ammo without PF worries?

A Newbie using Factory Ammo getting scored sub-minor is kind of a bummer.

You definitely want to make sure they understand what's going on and help them out.

[West Texas Granny]

Minimum: the least quantity or amount possible, assignable, allowable, or the like. Guys it is CLEARLY spelled out in the rules! It's not about playing "gotcha" or range nazi, the rules were put in place to keep a level playing field for all competitors. You can come up with all these excuses for not complying but in the end you are either compliant or non-compliant. I don't see the difference between a level 1 or 3, it's called competition for a reason.

If you are a new shooter and really didn't know, well you just got a cheap lesson. You probably weren't in the running anyway.

With prize tables at level one matches being in the tens of thousands of dollars a chrono stage is acceptable.

Back on planet Earth. I wouldn't like a surprise stage for the following reasons.

1. I shoot factory ammo and would like to know in advance to ensure that I bring samples of the ammo I have to be checked. You know. Prevent possible future problems.

2. My guns have different barrel lengths and I would like to see how barrel length impacts PF.

3. I don't want to waste time, money and energy.

4. Of course to be sure I can always break out the 41 mag or the 44 mag. I'm quite sure there will be no problem making PF.

5. Yea I know what the rules say but this is a level one match. The people you probably shoot with on a regular basis or travel to other matches with. The ones you hang with. An unannounced chrono stage is saying you think someone is cheating and it won't matter what the rules say because some of your shooters will be offended and some wont care at least publicly. People tend to react negatively when the suspicion of cheating is leveled at them which an unannounced chrono stage is added when none had been conducted in the past. Do you want the angst such an action will cause. Yea I know someone is going to point out the rules but I would suggest that said stage be announced in advance to avoid any problems and after that state that it will become a regular feature of the match.

[waktasz]

Nevermind, can't read

Edited February 14, 2012 by waktasz

[RePete]

If you have nothing to worry about, then a surprise chrono stage shouldn't bother you.

Everyone is being treated the same, so why worry?

[Wild Gene]

The only issue I see is with new shooters shooting factory ammo. We want to incentivize these guys to come back out, not give them one more rule to worry about. I only started shooting USPSA last year and I remember being really worried about breaking one of the many rules and being sent home or not being able to shoot. I for one would rather have the new guys worry more about breaking the 180 than their WWB making 125PF, especially when the odds are they don't even understand PF yet!

Cheaters are another story of course.

Better to let new shooters know if they are or aren't making it up front, and what better opportunity for them to understand what power factor is. What would be embarasing is for a newer shooter to go to a bigger match and not make PF... Part of this game is to help, make welcome and educate the new shooters just to sustain the sport. You are doing them a service by giving them an opportunity to access a chrono, which a newer shooter may not have.

WG

[DocMedic]

The only issue I see is with new shooters shooting factory ammo. We want to incentivize these guys to come back out, not give them one more rule to worry about. I only started shooting USPSA last year and I remember being really worried about breaking one of the many rules and being sent home or not being able to shoot. I for one would rather have the new guys worry more about breaking the 180 than their WWB making 125PF, especially when the odds are they don't even understand PF yet!

Cheaters are another story of course.

Not making minor PF simply means shooting for no score. To a new shooter who isn't hoping to be competitive, then it won't matter. They still get to shoot. To competitive shooter who just grabbed a box of factory ammo, then it'll be more of a blow if they were hoping to win their division/class.

I would have to disagree with this, I was competitive from the start, not only that but I shot nothing but WWB for the first 1.5 years of shooting USPSA, even shooting the state match my first year. If say I shoot my first local match and find out my WWB didn't make PF and I would have to shoot for no score, your basically telling me that the only way I can compete is by spending around $500 for a reloader bullets, and brass when I could pay $15.00 for a box of WWB. I might had probably given the proverbial middle finger and never shoot USPSA again. We cannot assume that if a shooter is new to USPSA, they are new to action shooting sports.

Now with that said, I don't see chronoing at local matches wrong. But maybe give "newbies" in USPSA a grace period so they can fix there deficiencies next time.

Matter fact, I had this happen to me not to long ago ("newbie" thing instead of the PF thing). I shot a local outlaw pistol combat match, you know the kind the "Ata'boys club match" and since I never shot this match before I was told I would shoot for no score thinking I was new to shooting. I did find that a bit irritating, but I was there to shoot with a "friend" and could care less about the score thing...

Edited February 14, 2012 by DocMedic

[kevin c]

On two separate occasions, at Nationals, I became suspicious of a few competitors ammo. Told the RM who promplty showed up with a baggie, pulled ammo off the belt and told the competitors to report to chrono after the stage. On one, there was no issue and the suspicious behavior was later explained to me. The other was minor, by a good margin.

You were an RO on duty when you reported your concerns? Another competitor with suspicions would have to voice such concerns in what way? Not being contrary; I actually approve. I just want to be clear on the how.

While I don't have an objection to a suprise chrono, I do have a practical concern. Maybe I missed it: at this unannounced chrono at the level I match, did all the competitors have a round pulled apart to weigh the bullet, or was declared bullet weight used? I ask because it is a fact that my 147 MG's and my 147 Precision bullets typically weigh one to three grains over nominal, and who's to say otherwise if I declare even higher, unless a bullet actually gets weighed?

[bbbean]

Seriously, I think there is a very valid point raised about new shooters with factory ammo. I'd hate to have to tell someone "haha, store-bought ain't good enough for us". And I can see the point that since chrono stages are rare, some people may be put out by having one unexpectedly, and some people may just not be all that serious. Not everyone is trying to cheat or cut as close as they can. Some people probably just got a load in a book and liked the way it shot and have never had an opportunity to chrono it to verify they are playing with legal ammunition.

You just described the majority of shooters at our local club.

[warpspeed]

Well it looks like we have found another way to make the new shooter more welcome and want to return. Great job everyone !!!!

[ima45dv8]

4. Of course to be sure I can always break out the 41 mag or the 44 mag. I'm quite sure there will be no problem making PF.

:roflol:

5. Yea I know what the rules say but this is a level one match. The people you probably shoot with on a regular basis or travel to other matches with. The ones you hang with. An unannounced chrono stage is saying you think someone is cheating and it won't matter what the rules say because some of your shooters will be offended and some wont care at least publicly. People tend to react negatively when the suspicion of cheating is leveled at them which an unannounced chrono stage is added when none had been conducted in the past. Do you want the angst such an action will cause. Yea I know someone is going to point out the rules but I would suggest that said stage be announced in advance to avoid any problems and after that state that it will become a regular feature of the match.

Please stop! My sides are hurting!

:lol:

[ima45dv8]

Great job everyone !!!!

Thanks!

[Thomas H]

I would have to disagree with this, I was competitive from the start, not only that but I shot nothing but WWB for the first 1.5 years of shooting USPSA, even shooting the state match my first year. If say I shoot my first local match and find out my WWB didn't make PF and I would have to shoot for no score, your basically telling me that the only way I can compete is by spending around $500 for a reloader bullets, and brass when I could pay $15.00 for a box of WWB. I might had probably given the proverbial middle finger and never shoot USPSA again. We cannot assume that if a shooter is new to USPSA, they are new to action shooting sports.

Now with that said, I don't see chronoing at local matches wrong. But maybe give "newbies" in USPSA a grace period so they can fix there deficiencies next time.

But---if your WWB didn't make PF, someone should tell you that you can't compete with it, particularly if you are going to be going to a state-level match---where you would suddenly be shooting for no score (for considerably more money) if you hadn't known and fixed it first. Yes?

I don't think the choices are limited to "WWB" or "reloading press/bullets/brass/primers/time". There are some other choices...

I agree that new shooters need to be brought along until they are hooked like the rest of us. However, this doesn't really have anything to do, in my opinion, with whether or not there should be a chrono at club matches. It is part of the rules. It would be handy for those who don't have their own chrono. It'll put everyone (including factory ammo guys) on an even footing, because the factory ammo guys would realize (if they went minor or sub-minor) that any results they may have had weren't valid, and they should buy different factory ammo. Otherwise it isn't a fair match, and those they are shooting against are operating under more difficult circumstances.

It isn't a matter of "gotcha" or anything like that---these are the rules of the game we play. And throwing one in every once in awhile might help people who are actually planing on going to larger matches. (I had never seen a chrono stage when I went to my first large match. Would have much preferred to have had some idea what was going on.)