USPSA BOD Meeting

[Skydiver]

Soooo...

are there actually any DA/SA guns that have a trigger pull below 3 pounds for the second shot?

If so, which ones?

I just finished putting back in a stock sear and hammer into a Tanfoglio Stock II. The old sear and hammer had the SA pull at about 1.5 lbs from the previous owner. Unfortunately the trigger job had worn out and about 1 out 20 times, the hammer would fall when turning off the safety after squeezing the trigger in cocked and locked condition. A little disconcerting. Shouldn't be an issue for Production since starts require the hammer down anyway, but I felt that it was a safety issue on the rare occasion that I may have to put the gun on ground during a CoF, or simply while plinking. A safety shouldn't malfunction like that.

Anyway, after just a basic install off a new sear and hammer, and some simple polishing, I'm seeing about a 2.5 lbs for SA. I'm quite happy with it there. I think can probably get it down to 2 lbs without any aggressive changes to the sear or hammer hooks. If I start completely reshaping that interface, I believe I can go back to the 1.5 lbs.

[Loves2Shoot]

I guess I misunderstood. I thought you were saying that a sponsored shooter could ask the manufacturer to make a custom gun that the average Joe cannot get. I was under the impression that the 2000 unit requirement was to prevent this from happening. If there is a custom gun made, then there will be at least another 1999 other copies made as well.

On re-reading, what I understand now is that a person can ask a manufacturer to modify an approved Production stock gun with custom tweaks before the gun leaves the factory.

Yes, they do that, as do other manufacturers with custom shops. Since inception, internal trigger work was allowed in USPSA as long as modifications were internal with NO weight restrictions.

[chendersby]

Been shooting a Glock with a $50 home trigger job for a long time, it's pretty light I hate to think I have to go backwards on that gun.

The thing that is disturbing is that at least one AD didnt know this was coming and from outward appearances was rammed through. What was the rush, crisis, etc?

Make that two AD's. This is an idea that has been just below the surface for some time now. The trigger weight idea has been voted on at least once and maybe twice, losing both times. This time it reared its head during a discussion of the XDM trigger system and shazzam it was passed 7-2.

Any follow-up on that trigger system discussion? If I buy the trigger from Springfield, then it's OEM and therefore legal under D4 21.6, but if I buy it directly from supplier for Springfield will it be considered aftermarket and therefore illegal under the same rule?

Bingo, you just discovered the problem we were trying to fix.

Admittedly it was probably a premature decision and I did not know it was coming either. There is a lot of frustration on the BOD with some of the stuff that is going on in production and how to regulate it. I was around for the first production changes 3 years ago. It always seemed pretty simple to me, what is so hard to understand about the concept of PRODUCTION? What we failed to take into account is the culture that is USPSA. I for one love the aspect of the sport that involves experimenting with the equipment as well as shooting technique. We are trying to do the opposite with production. Any comments I have made in this thread have been to explain not defend the decision to have a TP weight. After some pretty convincing arguements here and lots of other input I feel like we were definately premature with the decision. Apparently what we saw as a problem may not exist. If I am to represent the membership then my yes vote was the wrong decision. Like I said earlier nothing is set in stone at this point.

Merry Christmas

[Nik Habicht]

how many people that are complaining about the new rule have actually weighed there guns triggers (only 2 people did on this tread so far) i would be surprised if just polishing lowered your trigger below 3lbs. those that are for sure below are custom trigger jobs sent to a shop that cost at least $150

I'm not bitching about how it will affect me as a shooter, but how it will make the sport more complicated. Heck, I would probably sell more parts and do more work reversing stuff, but that is NOT what I want. I want the sport to be easy to participate in and judge.

really it would make it more complicated how? what if they said you can do anything as long as it is above 3lbs first shot how is that more complicated? it would remove at least 3 pages out of the rule book

Has there been an indication that they intend to do that? No. All they have done is piled on yet another rule that will obsolete plenty of people's equipment (not mine, my G34 breaks at 3.5#), and will give shooters one more thing to worry about when they think of trying Production division.

We need consistent, stable rules that only change when there is a clear, well supported reason to change them.

how do you know they wont do that, why don't we wait and see what the BOD comes up with the procedure and if anything will be deleted on the rules, shooters have to worry about chrono (i would put a large bet against any people owned a chrono before they started shooting competition and had to make sure they are above power factor) having to buy a weight is very cheap compared to a chrono

I've talked to a number casual shooters -- o.k. they all considered reloading to be a fun hobby -- and to a man almost all of them owned a chrono, as part of their load development and tinkering.....

[Nik Habicht]

how many people that are complaining about the new rule have actually weighed there guns triggers (only 2 people did on this tread so far) i would be surprised if just polishing lowered your trigger below 3lbs. those that are for sure below are custom trigger jobs sent to a shop that cost at least $150

The Vaneck trigger in my G17 breaks at 2.5.

Installing a new trigger is not just polishing.

Anyway, it doesn't matter since the Vaneck trigger is illegal in production: http://www.uspsa.org/uspsa-NROI-ruling-details.php?indx=22

Not entirely accurate. One type of Vanek trigger is illegal in production, as it involves an externally visible modification to the trigger.....

Vanek produces multiple trigger types, at least one of which is production legal....

[Nik Habicht]

Anyway, it doesn't matter since the Vaneck trigger is illegal in production: http://www.uspsa.org...ils.php?indx=22

that refers to the original vanek trigger modification. he currently makes production-legal drop-in triggers.

I did not know that... I guess I need to plunk down $220 to be competitive with my Glock in Production in 2012.

You don't. I have one in a Limited G35, and it's great. It's not however great enough that I want to pay retail to install it on all of my other guns.....

My competition triggers run about $45 -- and most of that is the cost of the 3.5 lb. connector and a rounded, polished striker safety plunger....

[Nik Habicht]

Soooo...

are there actually any DA/SA guns that have a trigger pull below 3 pounds for the second shot?

If so, which ones?

From the factory or tuned? A friend of mine let me play with an absolutely sick CZ a few years ago -- it went about 7 lbs. DA, and I think 2 or less SA, IIRC.....

[Loves2Shoot]

Been shooting a Glock with a $50 home trigger job for a long time, it's pretty light I hate to think I have to go backwards on that gun.

The thing that is disturbing is that at least one AD didnt know this was coming and from outward appearances was rammed through. What was the rush, crisis, etc?

Make that two AD's. This is an idea that has been just below the surface for some time now. The trigger weight idea has been voted on at least once and maybe twice, losing both times. This time it reared its head during a discussion of the XDM trigger system and shazzam it was passed 7-2.

Any follow-up on that trigger system discussion? If I buy the trigger from Springfield, then it's OEM and therefore legal under D4 21.6, but if I buy it directly from supplier for Springfield will it be considered aftermarket and therefore illegal under the same rule?

Bingo, you just discovered the problem we were trying to fix.

Merry Christmas

Isn't a aftermarket part made to factory OEM spec legal? That should make the original point moot if SA made it part of their catalog. That is they way it was explained to me when I asked.

Merry Christmas!

[Thomas H]

Maybe we should just take a page from the NYPD:

http://articles.nydailynews.com/2011-12-12/news/30509585_1_pistol-discharges-nypd-brass-kahr-arms --yes, the 7.5 pound trigger was too light for the NYPD.

[burningsquirrels]

off topic, jeez. knee-jerk reaction to poor trigger finger discipline. on the bright side, maybe now i can afford one for carry.

[Nik Habicht]

It would be nice if there was a one paragraph "elevator pitch" for each of the divisions stating perhaps why the division exists, it's philosophy, what it's goals are for the future, and what are the hallmarks that distinguish it from the other divisions.

I personally could care less what the BOD "thinks" each division should be. The rules define the division. If production was supposed to be a "box stock" or a "carry" division, that's something they should have addressed 11 years ago.

You are correct. The question is what we do now?

Chris,

given the nature of the sport -- to discover the best technique and equipment -- I've always thought it silly to attempt to artificially restrict that in some divisions for arbitrary reasons.

We started with no divisions -- and then when the modern open gun was pretty well discovered, created Limited to figure out what the equipment should be if we restricted comps/ports/optics, imposed a shorter mag length and a bigger caliber to make major.....

I think L10 builds on that, by restricting mag capacity, which both helps folks living in restricted states, and gives guns that are non-competitive in Limited a place to play....

Production approaches the problem from a different angle -- in that it's aimed at non-single action guns shooting cartridges as small as 9mm.

I've always though that the essential elements of Production were these:

Non-Single Action

Must fit a box/weight limit

Approved list -- commonly available

10 rounds to a mag

Restrictions on holster/pouch position (I'm completely open to magnetic pouches and race holster, as I think the positioning is the real restriction; I wouldn't change my current set-up if the holster/pouch type restrictions were loosened)

Limited externally visible mods

Minor scoring only -- to make the 9mm cartridge a viable and affordable option

In those four divisions, almost every blaster made can find a home to play in. Additionally the divisions -- by their relative equipment restrictions -- change up the approach to the shooting challenges presented by the stages. That means that we really have four distinct games we can play, at the same match.

Expecting USPSA competitors in Production to want to modify or experiment with their guns less, strikes me as a complete misunderstanding of the person who chooses to compete in USPSA. Some competitors will want to tinker with their equipment, I think we should let them, because anything else runs contrary to the rest of the sport....

[burningsquirrels]

Chris,

given the nature of the sport -- to discover the best technique and equipment -- I've always thought it silly to attempt to artificially restrict that in some divisions for arbitrary reasons.

We started with no divisions -- and then when the modern open gun was pretty well discovered, created Limited to figure out what the equipment should be if we restricted comps/ports/optics, imposed a shorter mag length and a bigger caliber to make major.....

I think L10 builds on that, by restricting mag capacity, which both helps folks living in restricted states, and gives guns that are non-competitive in Limited a place to play....

Production approaches the problem from a different angle -- in that it's aimed at non-single action guns shooting cartridges as small as 9mm.

I've always though that the essential elements of Production were these:

Non-Single Action

Must fit a box/weight limit

Approved list -- commonly available

10 rounds to a mag

Restrictions on holster/pouch position (I'm completely open to magnetic pouches and race holster, as I think the positioning is the real restriction; I wouldn't change my current set-up if the holster/pouch type restrictions were loosened)

Limited externally visible mods

Minor scoring only -- to make the 9mm cartridge a viable and affordable option

In those four divisions, almost every blaster made can find a home to play in. Additionally the divisions -- by their relative equipment restrictions -- change up the approach to the shooting challenges presented by the stages. That means that we really have four distinct games we can play, at the same match.

Expecting USPSA competitors in Production to want to modify or experiment with their guns less, strikes me as a complete misunderstanding of the person who chooses to compete in USPSA. Some competitors will want to tinker with their equipment, I think we should let them, because anything else runs contrary to the rest of the sport....

i like that.

production has enough rules already. work on the grey spaces.

[West Texas Granny]

Karma strikes.

To paraphrase an AD's response to my concerns: it's USPSA and if you don't like it then maybe USPSA isn't for you. That said.

Why no input from members shooting production. Why make a major change like this after a decade. How in the heck can you properly check the trigger in a manner which will consistently produce an accurate result across all weapons, under all conditions.

The trigger is not something that doesn't change. Trigger pull changes as it's used. In fact trigger pull is not a static measurement that is the same everywhere. There are too way to many variables to account for from place to place. Your certified 3 pound weight is different in Denver than in the Flordia Keys or in Ireland or Peru for that matter and that's just the weight. How the weight is attached, how much stretch in the material connecting the weight to what ever mechism attaches to the trigger. Of course where it's attached to the trigger also impacts any reading as it changes. Then you have to deal with those conducting the test. Also do you throw out all of the classifiers on record. You will have to make sure at every single level1 match where a classifier is shot that this process is done and is repeatable across the globe wherever a USPSA match is conducted. It's too much to ask and to expensive to justify since the burden falls on the local clubs to enforce.

Who is going to pay for calibrated test equipment and the regularly required recertification of this test equipment. You cant rely on what is available. Even if someone paid for this one bump,one measurement a change in tempture and the test results are no longer valid. Even still its going to be caliberated into a plus or minus value thereby making the measurements worthless at best.

Bad rule. Toss it.

[Chills1994]

I guess on the bright side of things, come January 2013 I could buy up all ya'll's previously legal 9mm production guns as you all flee to other divisions or other shooting competitions.

I'm gonna be rich! RICH! I tell ya!

[ac4wordplay]

...

3. parity is lost between DA/SA and striker. you can try to band-aid the parity by saying all pulls need to be 3#, but i can say that even factory CZs may need extra power trigger return springs lol. talk about a real pain. my stock sp-01 gets 3# DA, but i'm feeling others and especially shadows (again, bone stock) that are rolling out the box with sub-3# already.

...

(emphasis mine)

CZ shooters: I haven't handled a CZ in a while - am I reading this correctly? Is this correct? DA trigger pull under 3# ?

What about other platforms' DA pull? How low do they go?

Thanks,

ac

[sperman]

I guess on the bright side of things, come January 2013 I could buy up all ya'll's previously legal 9mm production guns as you all flee to other divisions or other shooting competitions.

I'm gonna be rich! RICH! I tell ya!

The sell-off has already begun!

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=142252

[CZinSC]

...

3. parity is lost between DA/SA and striker. you can try to band-aid the parity by saying all pulls need to be 3#, but i can say that even factory CZs may need extra power trigger return springs lol. talk about a real pain. my stock sp-01 gets 3# DA, but i'm feeling others and especially shadows (again, bone stock) that are rolling out the box with sub-3# already.

...

(emphasis mine)

CZ shooters: I haven't handled a CZ in a while - am I reading this correctly? Is this correct? DA trigger pull under 3# ?

What about other platforms' DA pull? How low do they go?

Thanks,

ac

Earlier in his post Gerard says his SP01 is 7#/3#, so I'm guessing the part you quoted was a typo.

I have an SP01, Comp hammer and trigger done by Angus, measures out around 6.5#/3#.

I shoot Production almost exclusively. And yes, I think the rule is bogus and how it was voted on/approved is even more bogus. And my gun would be legal no matter how you slice it. Still just a dumb rule.

[sperman]

I have 2 SP-01 Shadows. It is very difficult to get a consistent reading on my digital trigger pull gage, especially on the heavy triggers.

DA - SA

Stock Trigger 10# - 4#

Full Angus trigger job 5 3/4# - 2 1/4#

[Flexmoney]

how many people that are complaining about the new rule have actually weighed there guns triggers (only 2 people did on this tread so far) i would be surprised if just polishing lowered your trigger below 3lbs. those that are for sure below are custom trigger jobs sent to a shop that cost at least $150

1. Would your perspective change if is was 5lbs...for ALL shots in Production? 4lbs?

2. We could make that same argument for all the divisions...and apply 90% of the "reasons" that are being made for Production.

[GrumpyOne]

Seems to me that its an elegant solution to a nonexistent problem. My concern is about the magnetic pouches.... Why are they being disallowed?

[ac4wordplay]

Earlier in his post Gerard says his SP01 is 7#/3#, so I'm guessing the part you quoted was a typo.

...

Exactly, which is why asked - I don't have the CZ experience to be certain. If it hadn't been a typo... wow! I'd wanna try a CZ!

Thanks for the replies and the info on your DA/SA weights.

Best,

ac

[Flexmoney]

Been shooting a Glock with a $50 home trigger job for a long time, it's pretty light I hate to think I have to go backwards on that gun.

The thing that is disturbing is that at least one AD didnt know this was coming and from outward appearances was rammed through. What was the rush, crisis, etc?

Make that two AD's. This is an idea that has been just below the surface for some time now. The trigger weight idea has been voted on at least once and maybe twice, losing both times. This time it reared its head during a discussion of the XDM trigger system and shazzam it was passed 7-2.

Any follow-up on that trigger system discussion? If I buy the trigger from Springfield, then it's OEM and therefore legal under D4 21.6, but if I buy it directly from supplier for Springfield will it be considered aftermarket and therefore illegal under the same rule?

I asked this exact question, and if I remember correctly, in 2013 it will not matter what you do to your trigger as long as it weighs 3 lbs minimum.

That would be in contradiction to a previous rule or ruling, I believe. (ie... a factory custom shop has to follow the same rules as a guy smithing in joes garage...the part has to be in an approved model, first, before it can be used)

I left wondering where that stood. It wasn't voted on per the meeting minutes, right?

[MarkCO]

If I was running chrono, I would. Just like I would flip over a CZ or Tanfoglio with the slide locked back and check if the FPB is installed and functioning.

And why would you be doing this?

[eisenhow]

I asked this exact question, and if I remember correctly, in 2013 it will not matter what you do to your trigger as long as it weighs 3 lbs minimum.

So in 2013 I can take out my $40 apex sear + $20 spring and put in a $160 apex Forward Set Sear kit that totally changes how the trigger works as long as I tweak the springs to just over 3lbs?

So by trying to prevent an equipment race in production all they've done is open up a can of worms and make it more of an equipment race. Those darn unintended consequences when you try to fix a "problem" that doesn't exist.

[Flexmoney]

I have no problem with manufacturers building a better gun. Don't think having to do it with a 3 pound trigger is going to affect them at all. Probably make their lawyers happy. The issue is what shooters are doing after they get their hand on them.

Chris...you are almost...right...there.

"Shooters" are going to fix their guns up. American shooters will especially do so. And, they often need to tune up, since they are fairly mass produced and generically treated (perhaps due to litigation concerns and plain economics).

Please consider that "shooters" is the whole market. Folks are doing this stuff to their guns anyway...not because of us.