USPSA BOD Meeting

[Nemo]

I am so happy I voted for the right guy for USPSA president. Thank you Phil for taking the time to come here and express your views. That is refreshing when compared to the last 10 years. Thank you also to all area directors and elect area directors for their dedication and willingness to discuss the issue.

Now, all I want from my USPSA BOD for Christmas is for them to admit that this ruling was a mistake (it's okay to make mistakes as long as we're willing to correct) and have it rescinded.

¡FELIZ NAVIDAD A TODOS!

[sdm74]

Anyone on the BOD think about the guy that can just afford to get in uspsa with a 500 dollar gun. And then every once in awhile maybe can afford some tweaking to that gun. Not everyone has cash flowing out there .... I for one know there will never be a three thousand dollar handgun under my tree. So I will always be racing my mommies car

[Chuck Anderson]

It would be nice if there was a one paragraph "elevator pitch" for each of the divisions stating perhaps why the division exists, it's philosophy, what it's goals are for the future, and what are the hallmarks that distinguish it from the other divisions.

I personally could care less what the BOD "thinks" each division should be. The rules define the division. If production was supposed to be a "box stock" or a "carry" division, that's something they should have addressed 11 years ago.

Well you're probably going to be very disappointed in BOD decisions then. Each Division does have a purpose and an intent for that Division. To think otherwise is nothing but sticking your head in the sand. Having an intent for the Division just allows us ot try and guide what rules or restrictions are placed on the Division, and every single Divison has rules to go with it.

Vince, you took the stage analogy a bit too far. Think of the rule book as the stage designers intent and written with that intent in mind, just like a stage is laid out with an intent as to how it's shot. If someone finds a better way to skin that cat that matches up with the rules, that's freestyle. If someone looks at the Division rules and finds a way to get some widget on their gun, that's freestyle.

My view of the Divisions, take it for what it's worth, it's only my opinion

Open...open, do what you want. Caliber and mag length restrictions are only there to prevent every open shooter from having to go buy another gun every time someone figures out a better, tinier cartidge to stuff in the magazine. Pure race division.

Limited...open, do what you want, just without comps and optics. Caliber and mag length restrictions are only there to prevent every open shooter from having to go buy another gun every time someone figures out a better, tinier cartidge to stuff in the magazine. Pure race division.

Limited 10...open, do what you want, just without comps and optics. Caliber choices are more open since magazine capacity is not an issue. Requires more accuracy due to lower rounds available, but still allows major. Excellent place to feed new shooters with major guns.

Single Stack...restricted division. Number of modifications are limited. Carry guns would be perfectly at home in this Division.

Production...restricted division. Number of modifications are limited. Carry guns would be perfectly at home in this Division.

Revolver...open, do what you want, just without comps and optics. There are a few options for caliber and capacity is capped for everyone. This is probably the closest to a competetive equality division there is.

We've got 6 Divisions. 4 of them you can essentially do anything to the gun. Only 2 are restricted Divisions. Somewhere we can allow carry guns to still come out and play. They don't have to be competetive, but they at least kind of look the same. I like Production and Single Stack because, even though someone can go out and spend $3000.00 on a Sphinx (what a waste of money!) they don't need to. For the other 4 they are dominated, almost completely by single platforms, 2011 or S&W 625. Production and Single Stack have dozens (yeah single stack is 1911 only but there are what, like a 100 1911 makers now? Hell I shot two I built myself most of this year). I love Production. I was originally a Limited shooter (before Production). Shot that for years, thought I was pretty good. Shot open a year, hated the gun, but picked up some speed. Came back to Limited and realized that while my times had improved, I was now spraying bullets all over the paper. Figured a year in Production would cure me of that and switched in 2005. Haven't looked back since. I love the challenge of actually having to plan a stage, hit the targets in the middle and without spraying a bunch of bullets around. I'm very aware of how changes will effect not only individual competitors but the game as well.

I've noticed a theme running through this thread that I wanted to address. The notion that the Area Directors pulled this out of their butts without input from the members. It's just not true. I know I spend a lot of time talking to people from, not just my section, but Area and around the country as well. The Enos forum is by no means, not even close, a representative sample of USPSA. Talking to members off the internet I hear a lot of things that never seem to make it into posts. Some don't want to get flamed, some aren't computer literate. Some have better things to do than spend a retarded amount of time reading and making posts on Enos (like I do). I've had more than a couple members talk to me about their desire for a trigger pull restriction in Production. That number might even be higher if I had more of an open mind. If the other BOD members talked to people that wanted to trigger pull restrictions and voted for it, I don't see that as bad. I do see threads like this that go off on BOD members as a pretty good reason why several of them, who are members here, choose to stay out of these threads.

I understand the desire to seek member input on everything. But to do so, via online poll, Enos thread, whatever doesn't give a real picture. You get that by going out and talking to people.

[vluc]

Single Stack...restricted division. Number of modifications are limited. Carry guns would be perfectly at home in this Division.

Production...restricted division. Number of modifications are limited. Carry guns would be perfectly at home in this Division.

Thanks, Chuck, for not only starting the thread but continuing to comment on it!

You see, as I do, SS & Prod as pretty much the same, one just is restricted to a single platform, the 1911. Why no mention of that same trigger pull limit on Single Stack guns?

Here you have the relatively new division, similar in "intent" to Production 11 years ago. You see what happened with Prod with allowances as made by the BOD, here is a perfect laboratory to attempt to put in place those same restrictions that seem to be causing angst for so many in Production.

Change SS to a carry-only or box stock division, 5 lb trigger pull (or whatever it is they come out of the box with), stock recoil springs for the 1911 platform and see what happens. You would probably see the same reaction from the SS shooters as you are form the production shooters - as half of the ones I see that shoot it also shoot production guns that they have tweaked - and have done the same to their 1911's - with a darn sight lighter triggers than one can readily get a Glock to!

Edited December 24, 2011 by vluc

[Singlestack]

I've noticed a theme running through this thread that I wanted to address. The notion that the Area Directors pulled this out of their butts without input from the members. It's just not true. I know I spend a lot of time talking to people from, not just my section, but Area and around the country as well. The Enos forum is by no means, not even close, a representative sample of USPSA. Talking to members off the internet I hear a lot of things that never seem to make it into posts. Some don't want to get flamed, some aren't computer literate. Some have better things to do than spend a retarded amount of time reading and making posts on Enos (like I do). I've had more than a couple members talk to me about their desire for a trigger pull restriction in Production. That number might even be higher if I had more of an open mind. If the other BOD members talked to people that wanted to trigger pull restrictions and voted for it, I don't see that as bad. I do see threads like this that go off on BOD members as a pretty good reason why several of them, who are members here, choose to stay out of these threads.

I understand the desire to seek member input on everything. But to do so, via online poll, Enos thread, whatever doesn't give a real picture. You get that by going out and talking to people.

In the 11 years Production has been with us I have NEVER heard anyone say they wish it had a trigger pull weight limit. I shoot every weekend. I have been shooting since before Production. I shot the first Factory Gun Nationals. I was shooting a Glock 35 with a polished up trigger and when I went to the Vendors tent and felt the trigger on the XD that Rich had there I was amazed! I had to have one! To think that 11 years later we are going to add "intent" to the Division is ludicrous. Too many squads have already shot the stage.

I also never heard the the BoD was considering this new rule.

The members of the BoD might not have threads like these "go off" on them if they took the time to understand what the customers wanted instead of force feeding a major change that will cost a lot of people money.

[blu46and2]

Wow, just have to say that this trigger pull limit is somewhat ridiculous.

[LPatterson]

Quick observation. If a perp, either breaking into my house or confronting me on the street, is worth shooting once with a 3# trigger pull, what is another 2 or 3 rds gonna do. Isn't this the point of production division, to be practical. If I'm going to smash a trigger when my life is in danger, I don't think it matters if the trigger is 2#, 3# or 7#.

That's not competition, that's survival. In competition, the difference between shooting a target in the eye socket or the chin is 2 points. Now increase the range to 15 yards and trigger pull can mean the difference between winning and losing the match. As you are smashing the trigger are you absolutely positive that any missed shot is not going to hit one of your children. Aim small, miss smaall.

[vluc]

Wow, just have to say that this trigger pull limit is somewhat ridiculous.

Nah, this one is not that bad. The rule that you can't remove material from your gun then allowing grip stippling - that's ridiculous.

[Chuck Anderson]

In the 11 years Production has been with us I have NEVER heard anyone say they wish it had a trigger pull weight limit. I shoot every weekend. I have been shooting since before Production. I shot the first Factory Gun Nationals. I was shooting a Glock 35 with a polished up trigger and when I went to the Vendors tent and felt the trigger on the XD that Rich had there I was amazed! I had to have one! To think that 11 years later we are going to add "intent" to the Division is ludicrous. Too many squads have already shot the stage.

I also never heard the the BoD was considering this new rule.

The members of the BoD might not have threads like these "go off" on them if they took the time to understand what the customers wanted instead of force feeding a major change that will cost a lot of people money.

Sorry, I'm going to have to call BS on this. Everyone keeps talking about how we are now, 11 years later, just adding intent. We're not, it's always been there, just as it always has been for all the Divisions. Heck in 2007 they even wrote it down and showed it to the members. Don't tell me there wasn't intent before 11 years. It ludicrous to try and make the argument it was never there. If you ignored it, that was your choice.

You say you've never heard anyone ask for a Production trigger pull limit. Several people on this thread, as misguided as they are have expressed that very desire. I don't someone saying the overwhelming majority don't want one, but to say there has never been anyone saying they want/wanted one is disingenous. Also, have you asked? I don't normally have people come up to me and launch into tirades about what needs to be changed about anything. It happens on the internet, but rarely in person. I normally have to go ask. Again, like I said, it was a non-vocal minority asking for it, which is why I voted no. But there were some.

BTW, I didn't know the BOD was considering this rule until about 45 minutes before it was voted into place either. It wasn't just you.

[Thomas H]

When I used the racing analogy I was refering to the equipment not so much the driver. OK so it was not a good analogy.

Question one

The last go aroung with the rules and the statement about our intent should have been pretty self explanitory. http://www.uspsa.org/bodminutes/20090307_production_1of3.html We were trying to keep production the place for well, PRODUCTION guns. You know out of the box stock. We were also at the time trying to extract USPSA rules from IPSC rules.

We were not trying to make it beginers Division but definately we wanted it to be a place for them and their current equipment to compete. Also we wanted a place for more manufacturers products to fit in. What we have now is turning into limited 10 minor with double action triggers. And every day someone is coming up with a new trigger system that beats the no exturnal mods restrictions. The rules are becoming uninforceable. So in order to try to stop this trend we saw a trigger pull weight as an enforceable way to do this. We did not just pull it out of thin air to screw with everyone.

The rules are becoming uninforceable? Really? What rule have we made lately (other than this one which has no enforcement policy/procedure/support) that isn't enforceable?

How about this quote, from that intent link you posted:

"2) There is no way to restore the “stock gun” boundaries without retroactively declaring current member guns and modifications invalid for the division; the Board is reluctant to invalidate member-owned equipment.

3) There is no viable way to enforce restrictions on internal modifications without implementing an inspection process, a minimum trigger pull, or both; the Board does not wish to impose either approach at this time.

4) Manufacturer innovation in the Production Division is desirable; the Board does not wish to enact rules which constrain the evolution of the “stock gun”."

So---apparently #2 doesn't matter anymore, and the BoD no longer has a problem with #3? Or #4?

I'm really curious---again, if I recall correctly, someone at that meeting asked if any board member had any information about some shooter not shooting Production because of someone else having a light trigger, and no one said anything. Where is the data showing this is a problem?

Where is it that people without light triggers are suddenly now non-competitive?

As I said before: yes, it is easier to learn how to shoot correctly with a lighter trigger. Is it necessary? Of course not. When people get really good, is it an insurmountable difference? Obviously not, as evidenced by Nationals. For people who shoot Production division, is a $100 trigger job on a $600 gun a huge expense if they really feel it'll make a difference for them? Of course not, especially compared to the price of ammunition for practice.

Can new shooters start in Production division and be just fine on a competition level with stock firearms, especially on a local level? Sure! (Again---what data do we have showing that this is an issue anywhere?)

Question 2

The smart ass in me would like to say, if you are shooting an actual production gun your trigger won't be anywhere close to 3 pounds so what is the problem? But I won't (oh did I type that out loud?) In reality, because we as a group will modify our equipment as much as possible and push the rules as far as we can to gain a competitive advantage there will probably be a large affect on many members. What I am now struggling with is it worth it? Not so sure anymore.

So my question to you is how do we enforce the rules we now have and should we change the "intent" of the division? Or do we just let it go until production really does become limited with double action triggers?

I think that saying Production will become limited with double action triggers is ridiculous. And as someone has already said, Limited and Production already have significant differences. (I'm not going to list them again, as someone has already done a good job of that.) The intent of the division was to allow box stock firearms to be competitive. Are they currently? Certainly, particularly on a local level which is where most are used. On a national level, suddenly the difference between winning and losing is in hundredths of a second, and indeed, a better trigger might make that difference---on the other hand, it is certainly true that spending $5000 on ammunition and practice (for National level shooting) will make more of a difference, so the issue of spending $150 on a trigger job is put into perspective.

"If I'm running an actual Production gun"---let's see, I shoot Production, I have a - connector and a .25 cent trigger job in a G17. Significant difference in trigger feel. (I made M in Production shooting a G34 with a polish job.) I have no idea what the pull is in pounds---and I think it is ridiculous that I should have to worry about it. And don't tell me "oh, that'll never be below 3#" because as some people have posted, putting a Lone Wolf 3.5 connection in with a polish job HAS taken some people below.

Again I say: Where is any information showing us that box stock guns are no longer competitive, so that people are being chased away from Production because they would have to spend lots of money to be competitive?

It isn't happening at my club. We have been increasing Production shooters for the last several years, and there haven't been any issues. So---there is one dissenting data point. Where are the other data points? (Other than the many people who have posted here saying that in their club this isn't an issue---which are more dissenting data points.)

What actual problem is this solving?

[wgnoyes]

I am taking bets now from anyone who believes this rule will ever be implemented.

Well that is the problem! It has already been implemented.

You have a year to work on getting it repealed!

[wgnoyes]

on a more serious note, when it comes to parliamentary procedure, didn't anyone have the gumption to shout "POINT OF ORDER!" and make a motion to table the discussion until the next BOD meeting, especially when 3 guys are getting replaced?

The BOD is not going to wait around until new people take office. We have elections every year. Should we shut down for the last 3 months and not do anything? ..

Well frankly yes you should. This wasn't an immediate pressing crisis that HAD to be resolved right now. You have 2 new AD's coming in and a new president. Your current configuration makes you a lame duck BoD and you might have gotten a different result with the new folks in place. All we can hope is that the next BoD will repeal this. They have a year to work on it. We as members need to encourage our 2012 AD's and president in no uncertain terms (but polite nonetheless) that we do NOT want this.

[Singlestack]

In the 11 years Production has been with us I have NEVER heard anyone say they wish it had a trigger pull weight limit. I shoot every weekend. I have been shooting since before Production. I shot the first Factory Gun Nationals. I was shooting a Glock 35 with a polished up trigger and when I went to the Vendors tent and felt the trigger on the XD that Rich had there I was amazed! I had to have one! To think that 11 years later we are going to add "intent" to the Division is ludicrous. Too many squads have already shot the stage.

I also never heard the the BoD was considering this new rule.

The members of the BoD might not have threads like these "go off" on them if they took the time to understand what the customers wanted instead of force feeding a major change that will cost a lot of people money.

Sorry, I'm going to have to call BS on this. Everyone keeps talking about how we are now, 11 years later, just adding intent. We're not, it's always been there, just as it always has been for all the Divisions. Heck in 2007 they even wrote it down and showed it to the members. Don't tell me there wasn't intent before 11 years. It ludicrous to try and make the argument it was never there. If you ignored it, that was your choice.

You say you've never heard anyone ask for a Production trigger pull limit. Several people on this thread, as misguided as they are have expressed that very desire. I don't someone saying the overwhelming majority don't want one, but to say there has never been anyone saying they want/wanted one is disingenous. Also, have you asked? I don't normally have people come up to me and launch into tirades about what needs to be changed about anything. It happens on the internet, but rarely in person. I normally have to go ask. Again, like I said, it was a non-vocal minority asking for it, which is why I voted no. But there were some.

BTW, I didn't know the BOD was considering this rule until about 45 minutes before it was voted into place either. It wasn't just you.

Well, we both can call BS on each other then. I didn't choose to ignore anything. I read the rules. The rules declared polishing internals was legal so I did. Then I learned that some people were more skilled at polishing than I was...

It is not disingenous for me to say I have never heard anybody complain about Production trigger pulls when I haven't. That is my experience. I have head a lot of questions/complaints about other Production rules, just not triger pull weights. I have tried to explain the Production rules to as many new shooters as anybody but that question has never been asked.

45 minutes... hmmmm

THAT'S ludicrous.

[Supermoto]

Sorry, I'm going to have to call BS on this. Everyone keeps talking about how we are now, 11 years later, just adding intent. We're not, it's always been there, just as it always has been for all the Divisions. Heck in 2007 they even wrote it down and showed it to the members. Don't tell me there wasn't intent before 11 years. It ludicrous to try and make the argument it was never there. If you ignored it, that was your choice.

Don't blame this on the members, It is solely the BOD fault

Not only is the intent not enforced, the rules have allowed equipment and change that is counter to the intent. The BOD ignored the intent for 11 years. If the intent was important it would have been enforced and it would have been consistent.

[wgnoyes]

Oh and here's one more consideration. We have an "official" mag gage. We have an "official" "box". Are we now going to need to commission or designate an "official" trigger pull gage?

(And I guess I'll answer my own question. We don't have an official chrono. We don't have an official scale to weight bullets nor one for guns. So probably no to an official trigger pull gage.)

[Chuck Anderson]

on a more serious note, when it comes to parliamentary procedure, didn't anyone have the gumption to shout "POINT OF ORDER!" and make a motion to table the discussion until the next BOD meeting, especially when 3 guys are getting replaced?

The BOD is not going to wait around until new people take office. We have elections every year. Should we shut down for the last 3 months and not do anything? ..

Well frankly yes you should. This wasn't an immediate pressing crisis that HAD to be resolved right now. You have 2 new AD's coming in and a new president. Your current configuration makes you a lame duck BoD and you might have gotten a different result with the new folks in place. All we can hope is that the next BoD will repeal this. They have a year to work on it. We as members need to encourage our 2012 AD's and president in no uncertain terms (but polite nonetheless) that we do NOT want this.

So Bill, if we're a lame duck BOD, and shouldn't pass rules when all but one of the new people coming on board was at the meeting, when would it be permissible by you to pass rules? I'm not saying this needed to be done. But stating we shouldn't have been passing rules is just...well I'll leave it at that. I already went into the make up of who was there, who wasn't and how other than maybe the incoming A4 director being a more vocal proponent for Production, which I doubt, not a thing would have changed. We pretty much always have elections. Every year a couple AD's and or a President are coming or going. Should we only pass rules when all the incumbents are re-elected? I mean if we pass rule changes in Spring, then it's in the middle of an election cycle and the possible new incoming AD (9 months later) won't have a vote. When would you prefer we did it? Those incoming directors will have a whole year to make the argument we should overturn the rule.

[West Texas Granny]

The trigger test is easy.

3 # weight with a wire. The gun can pick it up without firing or it can't.

Except placement of the wire can alter the results.

[Chuck Anderson]

In the 11 years Production has been with us I have NEVER heard anyone say they wish it had a trigger pull weight limit. I shoot every weekend. I have been shooting since before Production. I shot the first Factory Gun Nationals. I was shooting a Glock 35 with a polished up trigger and when I went to the Vendors tent and felt the trigger on the XD that Rich had there I was amazed! I had to have one! To think that 11 years later we are going to add "intent" to the Division is ludicrous. Too many squads have already shot the stage.

I also never heard the the BoD was considering this new rule.

The members of the BoD might not have threads like these "go off" on them if they took the time to understand what the customers wanted instead of force feeding a major change that will cost a lot of people money.

Sorry, I'm going to have to call BS on this. Everyone keeps talking about how we are now, 11 years later, just adding intent. We're not, it's always been there, just as it always has been for all the Divisions. Heck in 2007 they even wrote it down and showed it to the members. Don't tell me there wasn't intent before 11 years. It ludicrous to try and make the argument it was never there. If you ignored it, that was your choice.

You say you've never heard anyone ask for a Production trigger pull limit. Several people on this thread, as misguided as they are have expressed that very desire. I don't someone saying the overwhelming majority don't want one, but to say there has never been anyone saying they want/wanted one is disingenous. Also, have you asked? I don't normally have people come up to me and launch into tirades about what needs to be changed about anything. It happens on the internet, but rarely in person. I normally have to go ask. Again, like I said, it was a non-vocal minority asking for it, which is why I voted no. But there were some.

BTW, I didn't know the BOD was considering this rule until about 45 minutes before it was voted into place either. It wasn't just you.

Well, we both can call BS on each other then. I didn't choose to ignore anything. I read the rules. The rules declared polishing internals was legal so I did. Then I learned that some people were more skilled at polishing than I was...

It is not disingenous for me to say I have never heard anybody complain about Production trigger pulls when I haven't. That is my experience. I have head a lot of questions/complaints about other Production rules, just not triger pull weights. I have tried to explain the Production rules to as many new shooters as anybody but that question has never been asked.

45 minutes... hmmmm

THAT'S ludicrous.

I'm not saying polishing wasn't illegal. I'm saying there was a clearly stated intent for the Division, not something that was added 11 years later as you wrote. Heck it even says trigger pulls were considered but not put in at the time.

As far as never having talked to anyone in person, I'll give you that. But I'm pretty sure you've read this thread. Where people say they are good with the pull requirement. To then say no one has ever said that? Really?

[Chuck Anderson]

Sorry, I'm going to have to call BS on this. Everyone keeps talking about how we are now, 11 years later, just adding intent. We're not, it's always been there, just as it always has been for all the Divisions. Heck in 2007 they even wrote it down and showed it to the members. Don't tell me there wasn't intent before 11 years. It ludicrous to try and make the argument it was never there. If you ignored it, that was your choice.

Don't blame this on the members, It is solely the BOD fault

Not only is the intent not enforced, the rules have allowed equipment and change that is counter to the intent. The BOD ignored the intent for 11 years. If the intent was important it would have been enforced and it would have been consistent.

Not blaming anything on anyone. And I think I've taken more than my share of the blame for the decision. My point is for someone to say we only recent added anything about intent is incorrect. You can say you think the BOD made decisions that went contrary to that intent, but you can't deny that it was posted in 2007 and anyone could choose to read it and interpret it as the please. BTW, since 2007 when that intent statement was issued. What rules have run contrary to it? I think the slide milling, stippling, checkering, etc. all came at the same time or before. The statement was an attempt to stop any further changes without screwing over members who made perfectly legal modifications. I'm actually having a hard time thinking of any rule changes in Production since that time.

[NewColonial]

I'll risk taking another angle here. I shoot Production, I like it and probably always will. My DA/SA Sig will have no issues with the rule change. What bugs me is the non-professional way it seems to have been done. (Yes, volunteers can behave professionally.) It seems that this motion just appeared out of the blue and was implemented. A rule change that will (apparently) affect a lot of people, implemented with no input and sprung as a surprise on the BOD? A cynical person might suspect ulterior motives. Secondly, a rule was made with no attempt to set a standard way of measuring the trigger pull. This makes it a crap shoot from one venue to another. Finally, and the one that caused me to say "wha?" "First trigger pull." That description really speaks of a quick, no forethought motion. Can't get much more non-specific than that. For a DA/SA gun, on an unloaded gun start, first shot is SA. On a loaded gun start, it's DA. That's 6# difference on my gun. First first pull of the match, or last first pull of the match after the gun is dirty?

Like I said, the new rule doesn't affect me. What DOES affect me is the sloppy, ill-conceived, incomplete action of the BOD in making the rule. What else will be done in this manner in the future? That is what has bugged me from the beginning of the discussion.

Edited December 24, 2011 by NewColonial

[Singlestack]

In the 11 years Production has been with us I have NEVER heard anyone say they wish it had a trigger pull weight limit. I shoot every weekend. I have been shooting since before Production. I shot the first Factory Gun Nationals. I was shooting a Glock 35 with a polished up trigger and when I went to the Vendors tent and felt the trigger on the XD that Rich had there I was amazed! I had to have one! To think that 11 years later we are going to add "intent" to the Division is ludicrous. Too many squads have already shot the stage.

I also never heard the the BoD was considering this new rule.

The members of the BoD might not have threads like these "go off" on them if they took the time to understand what the customers wanted instead of force feeding a major change that will cost a lot of people money.

Sorry, I'm going to have to call BS on this. Everyone keeps talking about how we are now, 11 years later, just adding intent. We're not, it's always been there, just as it always has been for all the Divisions. Heck in 2007 they even wrote it down and showed it to the members. Don't tell me there wasn't intent before 11 years. It ludicrous to try and make the argument it was never there. If you ignored it, that was your choice.

You say you've never heard anyone ask for a Production trigger pull limit. Several people on this thread, as misguided as they are have expressed that very desire. I don't someone saying the overwhelming majority don't want one, but to say there has never been anyone saying they want/wanted one is disingenous. Also, have you asked? I don't normally have people come up to me and launch into tirades about what needs to be changed about anything. It happens on the internet, but rarely in person. I normally have to go ask. Again, like I said, it was a non-vocal minority asking for it, which is why I voted no. But there were some.

BTW, I didn't know the BOD was considering this rule until about 45 minutes before it was voted into place either. It wasn't just you.

Well, we both can call BS on each other then. I didn't choose to ignore anything. I read the rules. The rules declared polishing internals was legal so I did. Then I learned that some people were more skilled at polishing than I was...

It is not disingenous for me to say I have never heard anybody complain about Production trigger pulls when I haven't. That is my experience. I have head a lot of questions/complaints about other Production rules, just not triger pull weights. I have tried to explain the Production rules to as many new shooters as anybody but that question has never been asked.

45 minutes... hmmmm

THAT'S ludicrous.

I'm not saying polishing wasn't illegal. I'm saying there was a clearly stated intent for the Division, not something that was added 11 years later as you wrote. Heck it even says trigger pulls were considered but not put in at the time.

As far as never having talked to anyone in person, I'll give you that. But I'm pretty sure you've read this thread. Where people say they are good with the pull requirement. To then say no one has ever said that? Really?

No, the intent was not clearly stated because trigger pull weight was not mentioned. Considered is way different than imposed. Polishing internals clearly implies that lighter than factory trigger pull weight is within the intent.

I said nobody ever said that to ME. Really.

[driver8M3]

The last go around with the rules and the statement about our intent should have been pretty self explanitory. http://www.uspsa.org/bodminutes/20090307_production_1of3.html We were trying to keep production the place for well, PRODUCTION guns. You know out of the box stock. We were also at the time trying to extract USPSA rules from IPSC rules.

chris links to the BOD statement of direction for production. and i quote below from that statement:

2) There is no way to restore the “stock gun” boundaries without retroactively declaring current member guns and modifications invalid for the division; the Board is reluctant to invalidate member-owned equipment.

doesn't this new trigger pull limit do exactly was the statement of direction said the board was reluctant to do?

i can't believe that the BOD sat around a table and in about an hour decided to make hundreds of current production shooters spend more money (or remove purchased parts) to make their guns compliant with a new rule. it is completely unfathomable to me that this rule was passed. how can the BOD put the screws to so many people with so little thought? i'm so disappointed. the milling-of-the-slide-for-sights rule is always kept in place to make sure that the very small number of people (how many??? in 8 years of shooting and ROing i don't think i've never even seen one) that have done that can continue to shoot production without spending more money. and yet a rule that potentially affects almost every production shooter i know is brought to the table and passed in about an hour. it's just plain shocking. even more so because this very issue was discussed a few years ago and the BOD decided against it for all the same reasons being discussed right now, and which the BOD clearly understood because they are expressed in the quote from the statement of direction.

i'd like chuck or kyle to propose a new rule at the next BOD meeting: a 3 lb trigger pull limit for all divisions. all of the reasons that would be argued against such a rule (for all divisions) apply equally to singling out production. yet for some reason it's ok to kick around production shooters with crazy rules and rules changes.

finally, i link back to post #287 in this thread....it's pure gold.

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=142216&view=findpost&p=1598906

[MarkCO]

I'm actually having a hard time thinking of any rule changes in Production since that time.

There are 13 rulings on production division specific rules since 2008, 12 by Amidon and 1 by the BOD. For instance: http://www.uspsa.org/uspsa-NROI-ruling-details.php?indx=34 appears to be a change since they were not universally allowed prior. Also, this now permitted modificaiton is externally visible so it is in conflict with some other rulings.

[sdm74]

The only thing I hear new shooters ask is, "where can I go to get my trigger improved because this stock trigger is horrible "

[mhop]

how many people that are complaining about the new rule have actually weighed there guns triggers (only 2 people did on this tread so far) i would be surprised if just polishing lowered your trigger below 3lbs. those that are for sure below are custom trigger jobs sent to a shop that cost at least $150