Production Mag Rules

[mikeg1005]

Putting a mag in my pocket isn't dangerous or unsafe and has no competitive advantage.

You are missing the point... the rule is not about competitive advantage, or danger, on safety. Its a DIVISION RULE.

It keeps single stack the way the creators of the division/game wanted it to be.

Arguing this rule is on the same level as saying, why can't we use 10rd mags in major? Or race holsters, or bull barrels, why can't we have 44oz guns, or whatever else isn't legal in SS.

The division wasn't designed to be as free as Limited or Open. Keeping all your mags BEHIND your hib bone while shooting is a rule. Whether it be pocket or pouch, if its in front, its illegal.

I shoot single stack quite a bit(doing limited for the summer)... Its VERY simple... and people overcomplicate it.

Load out of your prefered pocket.

Throw the mag in a mag pouch, rear pocket, on the ground.

Shoot the stage.

Unload into your prefered pocket.

Nothing more, nothing less.

Personally I think you should shoot for "no score" if you violate a division rule. Its not that hard to read the rulebook and ask your RO before starting if you aren't sure about something.

Mike.

[mikeg1005]

I think we've found another "internet problem" to solve.

Yeah, isn't all this exchange of information wonderful? Really clears everything up to a point where's its clear as mud.

No actually its crystal clear.

Mag in front of hib bones after buzzer in SS or production = open.

It seems like a lot of you here like asking these doomsday scenario questions.

When in doubt... Put it on the ground. Simple.

Don't know where to put your barney mag? Put it on the ground.

Accidently brought your 170mm big stick with you to the line? Put in on the ground.

Mike.

[NewColonial]

Is Game. Is Rules. :-)

[HoMiE]

I think we've found another "internet problem" to solve.

It's a problem because people are getting bumped to open division for something that is pretty trivial. At national and area matches no less. Then it trickles down and when an NROI ruling says that the rule was not made to complicate the process yet people are stretching it to pulling a round from your pocket and not touching any mags.

[diehli]

"Talking" at cross purposes. Arguing the merit versus arguing the meaning.

The meaning is clear.

The allegation that it's being applied incorrectly at Area and National matches (currently or in the recent past) is unsubstantiated.

The merit... I forgot where I left my 10-foot pole.

[StealthyBlagga]

If an RO called you on the mag-in-front-pocket thing, it's worth trying the "it is behind the point of my hip" argument . Generally, ROs have discretion to ask competitors to fix misaligned equipment rather than dinging them without warning.

[vluc]

I think we've found another "internet problem" to solve.

It's a problem because people are getting bumped to open division for something that is pretty trivial. At national and area matches no less. Then it trickles down and when an NROI ruling says that the rule was not made to complicate the process yet people are stretching it to pulling a round from your pocket and not touching any mags.

Trivial, yes. Against the rules, yes. Got bumped to open for neglecting to remove a small piece of grip tape from under my trigger guard at an Area match a number of years ago. Open with 10 round mags is not as much fun as one thinks, but they are the rules.

Triviality has nothing to do with it.

[sperman]

I think we've found another "internet problem" to solve.

It's a problem because people are getting bumped to open division for something that is pretty trivial. At national and area matches no less. Then it trickles down and when an NROI ruling says that the rule was not made to complicate the process yet people are stretching it to pulling a round from your pocket and not touching any mags.

If someone has been bumped to open for having a Glock mag in their front pocket while shooting SS, please let me know. That drift of the conversation is what I'm referring to as being an "internet problem."

With a few exceptions I've only shoot SS and production for the last 3 years, and the rule seems pretty straight forward to me. If you don't want to be bumped to open, keep your mags out of your front pocket. Why is that so hard to understand?

[diehli]

I think we've found another "internet problem" to solve.

It's a problem because people are getting bumped to open division for something that is pretty trivial. At national and area matches no less. Then it trickles down and when an NROI ruling says that the rule was not made to complicate the process yet people are stretching it to pulling a round from your pocket and not touching any mags.

If someone has been bumped to open for having a Glock mag in their front pocket while shooting SS, please let me know. That drift of the conversation is what I'm referring to as being an "internet problem."

With a few exceptions I've only shoot SS and production for the last 3 years, and the rule seems pretty straight forward to me. If you don't want to be bumped to open, keep your mags out of your front pocket. Why is that so hard to understand?

I don't disagree with you, but I don't think the issue is understanding. I think the issue is that some feel its an unfair penalty for something that does not provide a competitive advantage.

I can see (and, perhaps, concede) that point. But changing the rule, perhaps to say that front pockets are okay since—or, perhaps, "if"—they don't provide a competitive advantage would open up a new can of worms. Some enterprising individual would, perhaps, sew an angled pocket or two onto their pants, providing an Open/Lim/L10 position (if lower and somewhat less accessible) for mags. So then there'd be a new iteration of the rule. Et cetera ad nauseum.

There does seem to be a discernible evolutionary "intent" to the Production rules (I'll leave SStk out of this since there's less history and, to a degree, less controversy). "What does Joe Average do to his gun? Let's make those mods Production legal, but disallow the game-specific modifications (aside from the convenience ones like double belts and adjustable sights)."

But, sperman's dead on: it's an Internet problem. Want change? Think it through fully, maybe fleshing it out here, holding to your position but doing so analytically so that you can improve it, and come up with a Rule you can propose to your Area Director. I'm currently doing that with 2 things that bug me about Production: the disallowance of the magwell paint and the prohibition against putting replacement top-ends on guns that change the barrel length but are duplicates of other approved models, something I think could be of particular interest to Californians. I guess that's a warning to Chris to expect an email sometime between now and when Hell freezes over.

Frankly, the front pocket thing doesn't bother me. If you can be trusted to run around with a gun, you should be able to remember to keep your mags out of your front pockets. The positional requirements of Production (and Single Stack) are relatively simple, relatively objective, and relatively easily enforced. Harsh penalty? Sure, but I'm okay with that if it keeps someone that's trying to cheat (I'm not talking gaming here, but outright cheating, which involves a knowing breach of the Rules, not a flirtation with their bounds) from doing so. If you want to make an improvement to the Rules on the positional requirement front, come up with some procedure to help those checking compliance to determine where the iliac crests are. With my girth, it's a bit of a chore, and anyone that would be checking manually would have to buy me dinner and send me to bed with a smile on my face. That is: can't touch this. </mchammer>

[Flexmoney]

If an RO called you on the mag-in-front-pocket thing, it's worth trying the "it is behind the point of my hip" argument . Generally, ROs have discretion to ask competitors to fix misaligned equipment rather than dinging them without warning.

Well, generally...that isn't how it played out at a recent match (that I witnessed). Competitors stuck the mags in their pockets...after "Make Ready". The RO's can't help them at that point. Once the start signal came, and they still had them in there...the rules say they must be bumped to Open.

[mikeg1005]

I don't disagree with you, but I don't think the issue is understanding. I think the issue is that some feel its an unfair penalty for something that does not provide a competitive advantage.

How is keeping mags in front of your hib bone NOT a competitive advantage? You know how much faster reload mag #6 would be if I didn't have to carry it at 6-7 o'clock?

This is not about the front pocket of your pants... its about IN FRONT of your hib bones. It just so happens to be that every pair of pants in existance have the pocket in front of your hib bones.

I think you are mixing the actual rule with how people actually get booted to open by it. They aren't booted becuase its in the front pocket, they are booted because it is in front of the hib bones, which is in itself a competitive advantage.

Mike.

Edited June 19, 2012 by mikeg1005

[diehli]

Goodness gracious. Yes, let's go down this road.

You really think that going for a mag fully in your front pocket would be faster than going for your #6 mag? What kind of pants do you wear? And what kind of stages do you shoot where you're going for a 6th mag? If one needs more than 49 rounds to complete a 32-round stage, perhaps invest some time in practice.

And the point is that in front of hip bone on the belt is different from in front of hip bone in the pocket.

I understand the rule perfectly. The whole discussion is about how the rule is broken, in case you missed that.

As a side note, in the future, it'd be wise to read the rest of the thread to see the arguments that have been made, particularly if you're picking apart a statement that was a concise summation of those posts made by someone that ostensibly agrees with you that the rule should be left alone.

This is why I drink.

[sperman]

I don't disagree with you, but I don't think the issue is understanding. I think the issue is that some feel its an unfair penalty for something that does not provide a competitive advantage.

I think the phrase "competitive advantage" should be stricken from the rulebook. One RO's judgement of what constitutes CA may be different than another RO. The same act may be an advantage for one shooter, but not for another. Outlaw the act and eliminate RO's having to make those decisions on the fly.

[motosapiens]

With a few exceptions I've only shoot SS and production for the last 3 years, and the rule seems pretty straight forward to me. If you don't want to be bumped to open, keep your mags out of your front pocket. Why is that so hard to understand?

It's easy to understand, but it's also a stupid and pointless application of the rule, so it's hard to understand *why*.

IMHO there is a significant difference between storing a mag in your front pocket and not using it vs using a mag from your front pocket.

[diehli]

I don't disagree with you, but I don't think the issue is understanding. I think the issue is that some feel its an unfair penalty for something that does not provide a competitive advantage.

I think the phrase "competitive advantage" should be stricken from the rulebook. One RO's judgement of what constitutes CA may be different than another RO. The same act may be an advantage for one shooter, but not for another. Outlaw the act and eliminate RO's having to make those decisions on the fly.

But, again, there are unintended consequences.

What about line faulting? Saw a recent example of this with an oddly shaped front fault line that had hard cover a foot in front of it. One foot was outside the fault line, but the shooter didn't gain any competitive advantage. For the dozen or so shots he took on steel, do we really want to have him zero the stage or just doc him 10 points and tell him to watch his position?

There is ambiguity and, yes, people will sometimes get it wrong, but that doesn't mean we should remove all discretion.

[chevyoneton]

Guess I've been shooting Open for 2 years and didn't know it... LOL.

Oh well...

The mag goes to the rear pocket now.

Jeff

+1!

[sperman]

I don't disagree with you, but I don't think the issue is understanding. I think the issue is that some feel its an unfair penalty for something that does not provide a competitive advantage.

I think the phrase "competitive advantage" should be stricken from the rulebook. One RO's judgement of what constitutes CA may be different than another RO. The same act may be an advantage for one shooter, but not for another. Outlaw the act and eliminate RO's having to make those decisions on the fly.

But, again, there are unintended consequences.

What about line faulting? Saw a recent example of this with an oddly shaped front fault line that had hard cover a foot in front of it. One foot was outside the fault line, but the shooter didn't gain any competitive advantage. For the dozen or so shots he took on steel, do we really want to have him zero the stage or just doc him 10 points and tell him to watch his position?

There is ambiguity and, yes, people will sometimes get it wrong, but that doesn't mean we should remove all discretion.

It's been discussed in another thread (and I would prefer not to drift this thread) but yes, remove it from the foot fault rule also. If you don't want the procedurals, keep your feet insde the shooting area.

[GrumpyOne]

Some of my posts might be construed to make it look like I disagree with the bump to open. I do not. I understand the rule, and play by the rule. I have merely been stating "what if's" to see other points of view.

Mag in the front pocket after start signal=open.

Whether I like a specific rule or not, or think it's a moronic rule, I don't care once that buzzer goes off. I will follow the rules, and if I don't for some reason, I expect to be bumped to open. And, to top it off, I welcome the bump to open versus the alternative....shooting for no score.

[38SuperDub]

OK so I got a ? here (may cause some stuff I'm sorry if it does)

When is a COF over - when the RO says "Range is Clear" correct?

How many people at the ULSC stick the mag in their front pocket.

IN THEORY - SHOULDN'T this be a bump to open? Mag is in front of hip bone - course of fire is underway until the RO says "Range is Clear"?

[NewColonial]

OK so I got a ? here (may cause some stuff I'm sorry if it does)

When is a COF over - when the RO says "Range is Clear" correct?

How many people at the ULSC stick the mag in their front pocket.

IN THEORY - SHOULDN'T this be a bump to open? Mag is in front of hip bone - course of fire is underway until the RO says "Range is Clear"?

Already answered by USPSA:

http://www.USPSA.org/uspsa-NROI-ruling-details.php?indx=51

"Production and Single Stack equipment locations are NOT intended to complicate loading before the start signal or unloading. (e.g. – a magazine may be retrieved from a front pocket to facilitate loading before the start signal or while unloading at the end of a COF without penalty)."

[38SuperDub]

Gotcha - thanks for that

[glefos]

I don't disagree with you, but I don't think the issue is understanding. I think the issue is that some feel its an unfair penalty for something that does not provide a competitive advantage.

I think the phrase "competitive advantage" should be stricken from the rulebook. One RO's judgement of what constitutes CA may be different than another RO. The same act may be an advantage for one shooter, but not for another. Outlaw the act and eliminate RO's having to make those decisions on the fly.

Agreed. Isn't everything we do for a perceived competitive advantage? Otherwise, why do it? Powder, bullets, holsters, mag pouches, technique, etc.

The term competitive advantage is silly.

[kalaur]

I think the mag in front pocket/bump to open thing should stand. Its the same reason you cant load more than 10 rounds in production in a mag, even if you 'promise' not to use that 11th round. If you accidentally do pop that 11th round, or you accidentally do pull that mag from the front pocket, and neither RO sees it, that's a competitive advantage. Just disallowing it completely means its one more thing the ROs don't have to constantly watch for.

There is an opportunity for competitive advantage, thus, bump to open.

[Sin-ster]

I don't disagree with you, but I don't think the issue is understanding. I think the issue is that some feel its an unfair penalty for something that does not provide a competitive advantage.

I think the phrase "competitive advantage" should be stricken from the rulebook. One RO's judgement of what constitutes CA may be different than another RO. The same act may be an advantage for one shooter, but not for another. Outlaw the act and eliminate RO's having to make those decisions on the fly.

Agreed. Isn't everything we do for a perceived competitive advantage? Otherwise, why do it? Powder, bullets, holsters, mag pouches, technique, etc.

The term competitive advantage is silly.

I would argue that it's not only far from silly, but very much necessary-- in regards to this particular rule, but even more so as it deals with faulting.

In this particular case, we're really talking about a matter of convenience more than anything-- more akin to those little plastic hooks folks run on their belts for shooting muffs than actually having a mag pouch in an illegal position. The problem is that the mag could be used in the CoF and subsequently violate the Division rules-- and conceivably, doing so might have given that competitor an advantage over storing the mag anywhere else that were legal. However, I agree with the way the rules are written-- simply "not using" a mag is of no importance; if it's illegally located after the start signal, you're bumped to Open.

Thus in this particular case, I think the use of the term "competitive advantage" is pretty important-- not in regards to enforcing the rule itself, but in discussing its merit BEFORE and AFTER the start signal.

For faulting purposes, my gut reaction is to take your side and agree that all RO discretion should be removed-- you fault, you get dinged for every shot you take. The problem is that such a rule really could tank a competitor's entire match for a relatively small and single mistake (since they're not likely to notice the fault after they start shooting that array, or they would have corrected it beforehand). Again I believe this requires us to consider "competitive advantage" just as it's written in the Rule Book.

Realistically speaking, if we were going to toss that wording and the subsequent judgement of its applicability out of the rules... In order to maintain as much "fairness" as humanly possible, other rules would be needed to dictate the actual use of fault lines during stage design. As it stands now, many of the lines themselves are arbitrarily placed in regards to making shots more difficult-- hence the need for the "competitive advantage" terminology in the first place. (In these cases, the lines are most often used in lieu of walls, barrels or other barricades-- DEFINITELY important in regards to making it easy for clubs to create CoFs!) If we could do away with that, we could do away with the RO discretion in regards to enforcing the rule-- but I don't see how it's a positive or even possible change...

[Chills1994]

is USPSA "jumping the shark" with this rule?

I started thinking about that other shooting sport where "IPSC speed reloads" are verboten.

Is this rule meant to be a GOTCHA! to the IDPA'ers who crossover to production and SS, the two most IDPA like divisions?