Production Mag Rules

[Sarge]

This is the part I am seeing over is, "It is my duty to assist all competitors in their attempts to accomplish their goals and not to hinder them by undue harassment and authoritarian behavior."

I like this one the most.

Don't forget these are in the creed as well:

I will thoroughly familiarize myself with all current regulations, match rules and attendant subjects.

I shall strive to never give even the appearance of wrongdoing.

Enforcing the rules is not authoritarian behavior. Not enforcing the rules is poor ROing.

I won't forget any of them... Well I am a little drunk right now...

Then maybe this applies as well:

Prior to and during a stage rules discussion, I shall never consume any alcoholic beverage

[Shawn Knight]

Then maybe this applies as well:

Prior to and during a stage rules discussion, I shall never consume any alcoholic beverage

[retarmyaviator]

Politely, the RO pointed at the mag in the cargo pocket and asked something along the line of "was I already in Open or just planning to go there...".

Not interested in a rules discussion at the time, I pulled the mag out and dropped it into the "beach sand" that I was hoping to keep it out of.....

A couple of thoughts that I had afterwards were - thanks to the RO for being sensible, is my cargo pocket behind my hipbone?, should the rule be revised to not allow loading from ahead of the hipbone? and I hate cleaning mags.

Thinking back over the years, I wonder how many multiple string classifiers (reload and make ready for the next string) I and others have shot as an "Open" shooter by putting those used mags into a cargo or front pocket????

This post brought a question I had to mind. During the hot months I wear 5.11 cargo pants to matches, these have an additional small pocket on the left centered and above the cargo pocket that is just right size for a magazine. I have been using it to store the magazine I start with, that pocket is slightly behind the hip bone. Would this pocket position be acceptable? No one has challenged me on it in the past but I thought it never hurts to ask.

The pocket is not like the standard cargo pocket, where half is behind the hip bone and half in front.

[Skydiver]

Politely, the RO pointed at the mag in the cargo pocket and asked something along the line of "was I already in Open or just planning to go there...".

Not interested in a rules discussion at the time, I pulled the mag out and dropped it into the "beach sand" that I was hoping to keep it out of.....

A couple of thoughts that I had afterwards were - thanks to the RO for being sensible, is my cargo pocket behind my hipbone?, should the rule be revised to not allow loading from ahead of the hipbone? and I hate cleaning mags.

Thinking back over the years, I wonder how many multiple string classifiers (reload and make ready for the next string) I and others have shot as an "Open" shooter by putting those used mags into a cargo or front pocket????

This post brought a question I had to mind. During the hot months I wear 5.11 cargo pants to matches, these have an additional small pocket on the left centered and above the cargo pocket that is just right size for a magazine. I have been using it to store the magazine I start with, that pocket is slightly behind the hip bone. Would this pocket position be acceptable? No one has challenged me on it in the past but I thought it never hurts to ask.

The pocket is not like the standard cargo pocket, where half is behind the hip bone and half in front.

Behind the hipbone if start position is standing. In front of the hipbone if start position is seated.

[retarmyaviator]

Politely, the RO pointed at the mag in the cargo pocket and asked something along the line of "was I already in Open or just planning to go there...".

Not interested in a rules discussion at the time, I pulled the mag out and dropped it into the "beach sand" that I was hoping to keep it out of.....

A couple of thoughts that I had afterwards were - thanks to the RO for being sensible, is my cargo pocket behind my hipbone?, should the rule be revised to not allow loading from ahead of the hipbone? and I hate cleaning mags.

Thinking back over the years, I wonder how many multiple string classifiers (reload and make ready for the next string) I and others have shot as an "Open" shooter by putting those used mags into a cargo or front pocket????

This post brought a question I had to mind. During the hot months I wear 5.11 cargo pants to matches, these have an additional small pocket on the left centered and above the cargo pocket that is just right size for a magazine. I have been using it to store the magazine I start with, that pocket is slightly behind the hip bone. Would this pocket position be acceptable? No one has challenged me on it in the past but I thought it never hurts to ask.

The pocket is not like the standard cargo pocket, where half is behind the hip bone and half in front.

Behind the hipbone if start position is standing. In front of the hipbone if start position is seated.

I know the rules as they are written. It is interpetion and application by some of the written rule that causes the problems, not the rules themselves. Some people have a problem identifying the hipbone.

[JON]

Why not just put it in your back pocket and avoid any problems.

[motosapiens]

You are right but I refuse to call someone on this rule for an EMPTY mag.

So, you'll pick and choose which rules you are going to enforce?

Some people prefer to enforce the letter of the law, some people prefer to enforce the *spirit*, or intention of the law. Just like real-life cops and real-life laws. I think a reasonable case can be made for either approach. I personally won't be checking production competitors pockets to see what is in there, but if they reload from a front pocket during a COF, That is different.

At the same time, if I accidentally had some ammo (or other 'equipment') unused in my front pocket, and the RO gave a pat-down and found it, I understand that the letter of the law is what it is, and I would not have much room to bitch or complain about being bumped to open.

[retarmyaviator]

Why not just put it in your back pocket and avoid any problems.

I do not like putting any thing in my back pockets.

Good Lord, I hate even asked the question now.

Edited June 25, 2012 by retarmyaviator

[sperman]

Politely, the RO pointed at the mag in the cargo pocket and asked something along the line of "was I already in Open or just planning to go there...".

Not interested in a rules discussion at the time, I pulled the mag out and dropped it into the "beach sand" that I was hoping to keep it out of.....

A couple of thoughts that I had afterwards were - thanks to the RO for being sensible, is my cargo pocket behind my hipbone?, should the rule be revised to not allow loading from ahead of the hipbone? and I hate cleaning mags.

Thinking back over the years, I wonder how many multiple string classifiers (reload and make ready for the next string) I and others have shot as an "Open" shooter by putting those used mags into a cargo or front pocket????

This post brought a question I had to mind. During the hot months I wear 5.11 cargo pants to matches, these have an additional small pocket on the left centered and above the cargo pocket that is just right size for a magazine. I have been using it to store the magazine I start with, that pocket is slightly behind the hip bone. Would this pocket position be acceptable? No one has challenged me on it in the past but I thought it never hurts to ask.

The pocket is not like the standard cargo pocket, where half is behind the hip bone and half in front.

I use the same pocket for my start mag. When the buzzer goes off, the mag is in the gun and the pocket is empty.

[Flexmoney]

At the same time, if I accidentally had some ammo (or other 'equipment') unused in my front pocket, and the RO gave a pat-down and found it, I understand that the letter of the law is what it is, and I would not have much room to bitch or complain about being bumped to open.

Other equipment...like a pocket knife?

[motosapiens]

At the same time, if I accidentally had some ammo (or other 'equipment') unused in my front pocket, and the RO gave a pat-down and found it, I understand that the letter of the law is what it is, and I would not have much room to bitch or complain about being bumped to open.

Other equipment...like a pocket knife?

No idea how far a zealous enforcer of the letter of the law would go in defining 'equipment'. Gun-specific tools? screwdriver for sights? rag to wip off mags before putting them away? Spare earplugs?

Edited June 25, 2012 by motosapiens

[retarmyaviator]

Politely, the RO pointed at the mag in the cargo pocket and asked something along the line of "was I already in Open or just planning to go there...".

Not interested in a rules discussion at the time, I pulled the mag out and dropped it into the "beach sand" that I was hoping to keep it out of.....

A couple of thoughts that I had afterwards were - thanks to the RO for being sensible, is my cargo pocket behind my hipbone?, should the rule be revised to not allow loading from ahead of the hipbone? and I hate cleaning mags.

Thinking back over the years, I wonder how many multiple string classifiers (reload and make ready for the next string) I and others have shot as an "Open" shooter by putting those used mags into a cargo or front pocket????

This post brought a question I had to mind. During the hot months I wear 5.11 cargo pants to matches, these have an additional small pocket on the left centered and above the cargo pocket that is just right size for a magazine. I have been using it to store the magazine I start with, that pocket is slightly behind the hip bone. Would this pocket position be acceptable? No one has challenged me on it in the past but I thought it never hurts to ask.

The pocket is not like the standard cargo pocket, where half is behind the hip bone and half in front.

I use the same pocket for my start mag. When the buzzer goes off, the mag is in the gun and the pocket is empty.

Same here, when I asked the question I was curious if anyone had ever been called on it by an RO.

[Sarge]

Hip bones are farther forward than most people realize. A side pocket that does not allow anything to be forward of the hip bone are fine. TruSpecs have the same little pocket and I used it in Production since I actually had mag pouches that were in front of it.

[NewColonial]

NROI Ruling, 7/2/2012

http://www.uspsa.org/uspsa-NROI-ruling-details.php?indx=55

During the course of fire, after the start signal, unless stipulated otherwise in the stage procedure, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed loading devices shall be carried in retention devices attached to the competitor's belt and specifically designed for that purpose. Unless specifically prohibited in the Written Stage Briefing, a competitor may also carry additional magazines or speed loading devices in apparel pocket(s) and retrieve and use them without penalty, providing that the USPSA Handgun Rules, location of the apparel pocket does not violate the requirements of Appendix D, Item 12 (subject to the provisions of Rule 6.2.5.1). Should the division restrict the location of the magazines or speed loading devices, carrying them in apparel pocket(s) forward of the restriction point, will be allowed providing they are not used in the course of fire after the start signal.

Looks like that loose barney round in the front pocket is no problem for Production shooters.

Edited July 3, 2012 by NewColonial

[vluc]

Good. One less thing to worry about.

[Shawn Knight]

I wonder...

[Sarge]

I wonder...

Me too. What about during ULSC you remove mag and put it in your front pocket. Did you not use that mag during the COF?

[NewColonial]

I wonder...

Me too. What about during ULSC you remove mag and put it in your front pocket. Did you not use that mag during the COF?

What about it? It's already covered.

http://www.uspsa.org/uspsa-NROI-ruling-details.php?indx=51

"Production and Single Stack equipment locations are NOT intended to complicate loading before the start signal or unloading. (e.g. – a magazine may be retrieved from a front pocket to facilitate loading before the start signal or while unloading at the end of a COF without penalty)."

Seems pretty clear to me. Nothing to wonder about.

Edited July 3, 2012 by NewColonial

[Sarge]

I wonder...

Me too. What about during ULSC you remove mag and put it in your front pocket. Did you not use that mag during the COF?

What about it? It's already covered.

http://www.uspsa.org...ils.php?indx=51

"Production and Single Stack equipment locations are NOT intended to complicate loading before the start signal or unloading. (e.g. – a magazine may be retrieved from a front pocket to facilitate loading before the start signal or while unloading at the end of a COF without penalty)."

Seems pretty clear to me. Nothing to wonder about.

Not clear at all. As you so kindly pasted and bolded MOST of the relevant info you should have also bolded RETRIEVED. Using only the relevant text of that ruling it would look something like this:

(e.g. – a magazine may be retrieved from a front pocket while unloading at the end of a COF without penalty)

I think that pertains to those who have mag disconnects and need to use a mag to hammer down. The ruling you copied says nothing about placing a mag in your front pocket during ULSC. Splitting hairs ? Maybe. But it is two entirely different scenarios.

[sperman]

I wonder...

Me too. What about during ULSC you remove mag and put it in your front pocket. Did you not use that mag during the COF?

What about it? It's already covered.

http://www.uspsa.org...ils.php?indx=51

"Production and Single Stack equipment locations are NOT intended to complicate loading before the start signal or unloading. (e.g. – a magazine may be retrieved from a front pocket to facilitate loading before the start signal or while unloading at the end of a COF without penalty)."

Seems pretty clear to me. Nothing to wonder about.

Not clear at all. As you so kindly pasted and bolded MOST of the relevant info you should have also bolded RETRIEVED. Using only the relevant text of that ruling it would look something like this:

(e.g. – a magazine may be retrieved from a front pocket while unloading at the end of a COF without penalty)

I think that pertains to those who have mag disconnects and need to use a mag to hammer down. The ruling you copied says nothing about placing a mag in your front pocket during ULSC. Splitting hairs ? Maybe. But it is two entirely different scenarios.

Production and Single Stack equipment locations are NOT intended to complicate loading before the start signal or unloading...

Seems pretty clear to me, too. The part in parenthesis is an example, but not the only example. There have been 2 rulings trying to make it clear that the only time a shooter should be moved to open is if they USE a mag from an improper location after the buzzer, and before the last shot is fired. Do we really need a 3rd ruling?

[Sarge]

I wonder...

Me too. What about during ULSC you remove mag and put it in your front pocket. Did you not use that mag during the COF?

What about it? It's already covered.

http://www.uspsa.org...ils.php?indx=51

"Production and Single Stack equipment locations are NOT intended to complicate loading before the start signal or unloading. (e.g. – a magazine may be retrieved from a front pocket to facilitate loading before the start signal or while unloading at the end of a COF without penalty)."

Seems pretty clear to me. Nothing to wonder about.

Not clear at all. As you so kindly pasted and bolded MOST of the relevant info you should have also bolded RETRIEVED. Using only the relevant text of that ruling it would look something like this:

(e.g. – a magazine may be retrieved from a front pocket while unloading at the end of a COF without penalty)

I think that pertains to those who have mag disconnects and need to use a mag to hammer down. The ruling you copied says nothing about placing a mag in your front pocket during ULSC. Splitting hairs ? Maybe. But it is two entirely different scenarios.

Production and Single Stack equipment locations are NOT intended to complicate loading before the start signal or unloading...

Seems pretty clear to me, too. The part in parenthesis is an example, but not the only example. There have been 2 rulings trying to make it clear that the only time a shooter should be moved to open is if they USE a mag from an improper location after the buzzer, and before the last shot is fired. Do we really need a 3rd ruling?

Probably don't need a third ruling. Why couldn't the ruling say what you just did? Would have made things a lot easier

[gino_aki]

A tangent to this topic...

Wrangler makes or has made both cargo pants and shorts where a small pocket that is perfectly sized for a magazine (Wrangler calls them "cell phone" pockets) is sewn behind the flap in the middle on both side cargo pockets. I bought my two pairs of these shorts at Wal-Mart and am always on the lookout for more when I go there. I call them my perfect rule friendly USPSA Shooting Shorts.

Pics below of different mags inserted in pocket (sorry, no Production mags, but would be similar)...position of pocket on outseam should place them behind anybody's hip bone (well, for standing starts anyway-see next post)...and still easy to be grabbed.

Maybe these will become the de rigueur lower body attire for SS and Production

(Mods feel free to move this post to "Gear and Accessories" forum if need be)

Edited July 6, 2012 by gino_aki

[diehli]

As of 4 days ago, it's moot. Bottomline is don't bump someone to Open unless after the start signal and before ULASC they grab a magazine from a position in front of the iliac crests.

BTW, as someone pointed out, your "rule friendly" pants/shorts would have been violative of the rule if the stage procedure called for beginning from a seated position.

[mike l m]

I shoot Production and SS alot. I always keep mag pouches behind hip bone, but carry at my back a 3 round holder to top off my starting mag. Whether it is 9mm or 45 acp. That stops all the confuition about keeping a barney mag in a rear pocket or a front pocket(in front of the hipbone). But not only do I shoot USPSA but also IDPA. So the same gear I use for both. Just have to remember that it is a game and need to play by the rules. Whether you agree or not. If you disagree with it, so be it. The only time I start with a mag in my front pocket is if the cof is over 30 rounds and I load with a mag from my front pocket and top it off. Then at the start I have the mag in the weapon and 3 on my belt behind my hipbone.

Thanks,

Mike

[Sin-ster]

This entire discussion is problematic until we can consistently define "behind the hip bone"...