SRD Posted September 3, 2011 Share Posted September 3, 2011 Apologies if this has been discussed -- I didn't find it on my initial search. At a recent match I was told by the RO that, as a production shooter, if I pulled a barney mag from my front pocket at the "make ready" command that I would be bumped to open for violating the "mags behind hips" rule. I countered that the rule states "during the course of fire, after the start signal..." which is the language in 5.2.4. He said that he just completed RO training and they discussed this issue specifically, and he was confident in his interpretation that it applied to the period immediately after the "make ready" command. Am I missing something? Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adively Posted September 3, 2011 Share Posted September 3, 2011 (edited) SRD, It has been recently discussed here. From John Amidon, Director NROI. Front Sight March/April 2011 Page 68: No Mags In The front pockets? Really? Is it legal for someone shooting in Single Stack Division to carry spare magazines in the front pocket of their pants? Does carrying magazines that way require that they be moved to Open? Please cite the applicable USPSA rules. Answer Unfortunately, yes it does. Appendix D1 item 12 states yes to restrictions on position of equipment, appendix E3 shows that restriction and 6.2.5.1 states if they do not satisfy the division entered at any time, they are moved to Open. There is nothing wrong with having magazines in the back pockets or another pocket behind the hip bone. Edited September 3, 2011 by adively Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SRD Posted September 3, 2011 Author Share Posted September 3, 2011 I need to clarify. Although I called it a barney mag I'm talking about the mag I use to start the course of fire. It has 11 rounds in it, and I pull it from my front pocket and insert it in my pistol and chamber a round. At the start signal I no longer have a mag in my front pocket ... It's in the pistol. So when the RO says "make ready" can I pull the mag I will use to start the course of fire from my front pocket? He said no because it needs to come from behind my hip. I understand that I can't run the course of fire with a spare mag in that pocket, but that's not what I'm doing. Does that change things? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sirveyr Posted September 3, 2011 Share Posted September 3, 2011 (edited) DOH! Wrong rule. Edited September 3, 2011 by sirveyr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aztecdriver Posted September 3, 2011 Share Posted September 3, 2011 SRD, Understood. The issue is a collision of rules. While the rule for all magazines must have 10 rounds in the appendix is correct, the rules that specify where your equipment is located does not have the same clause about "after the start signal". Because you step to the line with equipment in front of the hipbone and are given "Make Ready", your equipment dictates a bump to open. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim/GA Posted September 3, 2011 Share Posted September 3, 2011 ...I countered that the rule states "during the course of fire, after the start signal..." which is the language in 5.2.4. ... The RO was correct. The part of the rules you quoted deal with location of the magazines. You listed 5.2.4 above but missed when the course of fire begins. "8.3.1 “Make Ready” – This command signifies the start of “the Course of Fire”..." Thus the MR command is the start of the COF and if the mag is in your pocket in front of the hips at that time the rule is broken. It has been discussed that you could pull it out of the pocket before the command, but then you are one handed, etc. Best option is to put that mag in an extra mag holder on the belt if you have it/space, a back pocket or a side pocket that keeps the mag behind the hip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim/GA Posted September 3, 2011 Share Posted September 3, 2011 3 of us posting at once! One thing about the rules forum, don't usually have to wait long to get an answer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Johnson Posted September 3, 2011 Share Posted September 3, 2011 So when the RO says "make ready" can I pull the mag I will use to start the course of fire from my front pocket? 6.2.5.1 says violating equipment rules during the COF, which begins at 'Make Ready', puts you in open. The mag has to be out of your pocket before 'make ready'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewColonial Posted September 4, 2011 Share Posted September 4, 2011 I was also recently told that placing the mag in your front pocket after "if you are finished.." also constitutes a bump to open (from production) since the COF isn't over until "range is clear." I see folks doing that a lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SRD Posted September 4, 2011 Author Share Posted September 4, 2011 Thanks all. The reference to 6.2.5.1 is very helpful. I'll have to be careful going forward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JakeMartens Posted September 4, 2011 Share Posted September 4, 2011 it is pretty simple if you are shooting Production or Single Stack don't put mags in your front pockets Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aztecdriver Posted September 4, 2011 Share Posted September 4, 2011 I was also recently told that placing the mag in your front pocket after "if you are finished.." also constitutes a bump to open (from production) since the COF isn't over until "range is clear." I see folks doing that a lot. Right - and when you think about it, it makes sense. Keep in mind, the command is "if you are finished, unload and show clear". There is nothing different about YOUR state in the COF than when the buzzer goes off at that point, so the rules apply the same, and it would be hard to make them apply differently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spanky Posted September 4, 2011 Share Posted September 4, 2011 it is pretty simple if you are shooting Production or Single Stack don't put mags in your front pockets Exactly. Either run an extra mag pouch or put it in your back pocket. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strick Posted September 4, 2011 Share Posted September 4, 2011 Yeah, based on that other thread I started using my 5th mag holder or rear pocket for my loading mag. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffWard Posted September 4, 2011 Share Posted September 4, 2011 Guess I've been shooting Open for 2 years and didn't know it... LOL. Oh well... The mag goes to the rear pocket now. Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveU Posted September 4, 2011 Share Posted September 4, 2011 This is clearly an unintended consequence that could be cleared up by adding "at (or after) the start signal" So it is OK to walk up to the line with your Barney mag in your HAND but not in your front pocket at make ready... Yeah, you can keep your Barney mag out of your front pocket -- but why not just fix the rule with the next revision? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badchad Posted September 4, 2011 Share Posted September 4, 2011 but why not just fix the rule with the next revision? I agree. Everyone, and I mean everyone, has been breaking the rule for years without consequence. At the recent Area 3 I saw that most are still breaking the rule. Also if you're an Open or Limited shooter you might as well get used to compliance as well just in case you ever want to shoot a Production/SS match and not get bumped on accident. As I read it, at unload show clear, you better not put your ejected round in your front pocket either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JakeMartens Posted September 4, 2011 Share Posted September 4, 2011 This is clearly an unintended consequence that could be cleared up by adding "at (or after) the start signal" So it is OK to walk up to the line with your Barney mag in your HAND but not in your front pocket at make ready... Yeah, you can keep your Barney mag out of your front pocket -- but why not just fix the rule with the next revision? What's wrong with the rule now? Don't put a mag in your front pocket, seems pretty simple. I shoot ss a lot and lamr from my back pocket, have two mags there the barney and the one I start with. Nothing needs to be fixed. Just followed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewColonial Posted September 4, 2011 Share Posted September 4, 2011 Don't put that loose barney round in your front pocket either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IL-SIG Posted September 4, 2011 Share Posted September 4, 2011 Is there any reason a person couldn't be holding the first mag (barney or otherwise) in their hand when they approach the line. Then when told the "Make Ready", the mag is in their hand, not in the front pocket. When not in the COF and making ready, you certainly can carry an extra mag in your front pocket, if you desire. Then before approaching the COF, remove the mag and hold in your hand until you are ordered to make ready. I am not aware of a rule that would preclude this approach - however, if one exists, I am sure I will be corrected. Just a thought and my $.02 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schutzenmeister Posted September 4, 2011 Share Posted September 4, 2011 Is there any reason a person couldn't be holding the first mag (barney or otherwise) in their hand when they approach the line. Then when told the "Make Ready", the mag is in their hand, not in the front pocket. When not in the COF and making ready, you certainly can carry an extra mag in your front pocket, if you desire. Then before approaching the COF, remove the mag and hold in your hand until you are ordered to make ready. I am not aware of a rule that would preclude this approach - however, if one exists, I am sure I will be corrected. Just a thought and my $.02 The rule falls under Murphy's Law ... O'S*** ... I forgot it was there! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aztecdriver Posted September 4, 2011 Share Posted September 4, 2011 Is there any reason a person couldn't be holding the first mag (barney or otherwise) in their hand when they approach the line. Then when told the "Make Ready", the mag is in their hand, not in the front pocket. When not in the COF and making ready, you certainly can carry an extra mag in your front pocket, if you desire. Then before approaching the COF, remove the mag and hold in your hand until you are ordered to make ready. I am not aware of a rule that would preclude this approach - however, if one exists, I am sure I will be corrected. Just a thought and my $.02 The rule falls under Murphy's Law ... O'S*** ... I forgot it was there! Exactly. Or your deep in thought running through your stage on deck as I (as RO playing let's burn though this squad) step up beside you and jam out "make ready" before you expected. It's not worth the opportunity. I run 6 mags, each with 10 in it. I don't have to change my routine for an unloaded start (or when I switch back to single stack either, for that matter). I strip one off the 5th, put it back and load up the 6th. If I need that extra round in my last mag - things have gone bad enough already that one extra round ain't gonna make that big enough of a difference. Then again, I have plenty of real estate (read waste band) for 6 mags. 5 could be done the same way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badchad Posted September 4, 2011 Share Posted September 4, 2011 What's wrong with the rule now? For one thing muscle memory of everything you have stuck in and out of your pockets your whole life is really trying to get you moved into open. Plus as was mentioned the rule is more of a byproduct than an actual intention and near as I can tell is not practical, nor does it affect fair play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aztecdriver Posted September 4, 2011 Share Posted September 4, 2011 What's wrong with the rule now? For one thing muscle memory of everything you have stuck in and out of your pockets your whole life is really trying to get you moved into open. Plus as was mentioned the rule is more of a byproduct than an actual intention and near as I can tell is not practical, nor does it affect fair play. I, for one, think the rule should be based on the buzzer, but muscle memory for where a charge mag is?? I'm not buying that. How about it doesn't make a competitive difference where the equipment comes from before the start signal, just as long as it's in the right position after? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badchad Posted September 4, 2011 Share Posted September 4, 2011 I, for one, think the rule should be based on the buzzer, but muscle memory for where a charge mag is?? I'm not buying that. Regarding muscle memory I thinking more of car keys, cell phones, coins, etc. We stick things in our front pockets all the time without thinking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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