Production Mag Rules

[aztecdriver]

Again... EMPTY mag... As in no ammo in the pocket therefore impossible to shoot therefore impossible to gain advantage from having a mag in the front pocket during a COF. Are we going to start searching competitors pockets after the COF?

I am going to start warning everyone I RO in Production and Single Stack. I do not want to be the NAZI RO like the instructor told us about but if I have to in order to keep other ROs from bumping people then I will.

Shawn,

It doesn't matter. There is no "gaining advantage" in equipment rules. If DNROI wants to clarify it to be empty mags are ok in pockets in front of the hip bone, by all means, ask. Everything in 5.2.4, Appendix E3, D4, etc. ALL say equipment, "spare magazines", etc. It does not say "ammunition". Sorry, but you run the risk of slippery slope by allowing a reading in of this advantage hoohaw you keep talking about. It does not matter, the equipment is in the wrong place after the buzzer...

I will gladly accept and applaud a change for this, but I don't agree with you that just because the mag is empty means it's not part of the equipment - by the reading of the rules.

You can warn everyone you want. I keep telling them to stop loading 11 in their charge mag, but every once in a while someone gets banged into open on an unloaded start.

[Thomas H]

It doesn't matter. There is no "gaining advantage" in equipment rules. If DNROI wants to clarify it to be empty mags are ok in pockets in front of the hip bone, by all means, ask. Everything in 5.2.4, Appendix E3, D4, etc. ALL say equipment, "spare magazines", etc. It does not say "ammunition". Sorry, but you run the risk of slippery slope by allowing a reading in of this advantage hoohaw you keep talking about. It does not matter, the equipment is in the wrong place after the buzzer...

I will gladly accept and applaud a change for this, but I don't agree with you that just because the mag is empty means it's not part of the equipment - by the reading of the rules.

You can warn everyone you want. I keep telling them to stop loading 11 in their charge mag, but every once in a while someone gets banged into open on an unloaded start.

Exactly.

[Nik Habicht]

Again... EMPTY mag... As in no ammo in the pocket therefore impossible to shoot therefore impossible to gain advantage from having a mag in the front pocket during a COF. Are we going to start searching competitors pockets after the COF?

I am going to start warning everyone I RO in Production and Single Stack. I do not want to be the NAZI RO like the instructor told us about but if I have to in order to keep other ROs from bumping people then I will.

Shawn,

It doesn't matter. There is no "gaining advantage" in equipment rules. If DNROI wants to clarify it to be empty mags are ok in pockets in front of the hip bone, by all means, ask. Everything in 5.2.4, Appendix E3, D4, etc. ALL say equipment, "spare magazines", etc. It does not say "ammunition". Sorry, but you run the risk of slippery slope by allowing a reading in of this advantage hoohaw you keep talking about. It does not matter, the equipment is in the wrong place after the buzzer...

I will gladly accept and applaud a change for this, but I don't agree with you that just because the mag is empty means it's not part of the equipment - by the reading of the rules.

You can warn everyone you want. I keep telling them to stop loading 11 in their charge mag, but every once in a while someone gets banged into open on an unloaded start.

I'll play Devil's advocate here for a moment -- granted we don't often see this situation.....

Competitor has a gun with a mag safety. Competitor also has an extra mag, differently colored than the ones on his belt, that he carries empty in his front pocket, for the specific purpose of inserting it into the gun to drop the hammer with a trigger pull at the end of the COF. Is that allowed? Is it allowed if it's a tube and basepad -- no follower and spring?

[Shawn Knight]

Again... EMPTY mag... As in no ammo in the pocket therefore impossible to shoot therefore impossible to gain advantage from having a mag in the front pocket during a COF. Are we going to start searching competitors pockets after the COF?

I am going to start warning everyone I RO in Production and Single Stack. I do not want to be the NAZI RO like the instructor told us about but if I have to in order to keep other ROs from bumping people then I will.

Shawn,

It doesn't matter. There is no "gaining advantage" in equipment rules. If DNROI wants to clarify it to be empty mags are ok in pockets in front of the hip bone, by all means, ask. Everything in 5.2.4, Appendix E3, D4, etc. ALL say equipment, "spare magazines", etc. It does not say "ammunition". Sorry, but you run the risk of slippery slope by allowing a reading in of this advantage hoohaw you keep talking about. It does not matter, the equipment is in the wrong place after the buzzer...

I will gladly accept and applaud a change for this, but I don't agree with you that just because the mag is empty means it's not part of the equipment - by the reading of the rules.

You can warn everyone you want. I keep telling them to stop loading 11 in their charge mag, but every once in a while someone gets banged into open on an unloaded start.

I'll play Devil's advocate here for a moment -- granted we don't often see this situation.....

Competitor has a gun with a mag safety. Competitor also has an extra mag, differently colored than the ones on his belt, that he carries empty in his front pocket, for the specific purpose of inserting it into the gun to drop the hammer with a trigger pull at the end of the COF. Is that allowed? Is it allowed if it's a tube and basepad -- no follower and spring?

No because that is equipment forward of the hipbone.

[RoryW]

OK so I got a ? here (may cause some stuff I'm sorry if it does)

When is a COF over - when the RO says "Range is Clear" correct?

How many people at the ULSC stick the mag in their front pocket.

IN THEORY - SHOULDN'T this be a bump to open? Mag is in front of hip bone - course of fire is underway until the RO says "Range is Clear"?

Already answered by USPSA:

http://www.USPSA.org/uspsa-NROI-ruling-details.php?indx=51

"Production and Single Stack equipment locations are NOT intended to complicate loading before the start signal or unloading. (e.g. – a magazine may be retrieved from a front pocket to facilitate loading before the start signal or while unloading at the end of a COF without penalty)."

looking at this rule, what if ( and i have seen many shooters do this) at the end of the COF the shooter removes the mag, insert said mag in front pocket, looks up and realize he has a MIKE on target and proceed to fire the chambered round.

Just started shooting production and actually think its a fun division but i think i'll be heading back to LIMITED and OPEN. Too many IDPA type rules.

[Thomas H]

looking at this rule, what if ( and i have seen many shooters do this) at the end of the COF the shooter removes the mag, insert said mag in front pocket, looks up and realize he has a MIKE on target and proceed to fire the chambered round.

Just started shooting production and actually think its a fun division but i think i'll be heading back to LIMITED and OPEN. Too many IDPA type rules.

So, don't put mags in your front pockets. Seems pretty simple...

[diehli]

Yes, and refusing to acknowledge the point that several people have made is also quite simple.

[aztecdriver]

I'll play Devil's advocate here for a moment -- granted we don't often see this situation.....

Competitor has a gun with a mag safety. Competitor also has an extra mag, differently colored than the ones on his belt, that he carries empty in his front pocket, for the specific purpose of inserting it into the gun to drop the hammer with a trigger pull at the end of the COF. Is that allowed? Is it allowed if it's a tube and basepad -- no follower and spring?

LOL, not often... I agree, crappy way, but if it can't hold ammo, it's just a part - again, like the knife. I get it, there's a bunch of edge cases.

1. The only people I ever see shoot something that has a mag disconnect in it - are newbies and after the first 4 times messing around with that, they find something else or move on. Same with the SIG shooters that can't figure out we aren't dropping the hammer for hammers dropping sake, but that the hammer has to fall on the pin... you wouldn't believe how many people have huffed at me because I won't let them put the gun away after decocking..

2. Submit the rule change request. I wear all my mags in SS and Production on my belt. I could care less - to me, it's too much to be worth the ink. - though I continue to do so in here, for some reason.

[HoMiE]

Again... EMPTY mag... As in no ammo in the pocket therefore impossible to shoot therefore impossible to gain advantage from having a mag in the front pocket during a COF. Are we going to start searching competitors pockets after the COF?

I am going to start warning everyone I RO in Production and Single Stack. I do not want to be the NAZI RO like the instructor told us about but if I have to in order to keep other ROs from bumping people then I will.

Shawn,

It doesn't matter. There is no "gaining advantage" in equipment rules. If DNROI wants to clarify it to be empty mags are ok in pockets in front of the hip bone, by all means, ask. Everything in 5.2.4, Appendix E3, D4, etc. ALL say equipment, "spare magazines", etc. It does not say "ammunition". Sorry, but you run the risk of slippery slope by allowing a reading in of this advantage hoohaw you keep talking about. It does not matter, the equipment is in the wrong place after the buzzer...

I will gladly accept and applaud a change for this, but I don't agree with you that just because the mag is empty means it's not part of the equipment - by the reading of the rules.

You can warn everyone you want. I keep telling them to stop loading 11 in their charge mag, but every once in a while someone gets banged into open on an unloaded start.

I'll play Devil's advocate here for a moment -- granted we don't often see this situation.....

Competitor has a gun with a mag safety. Competitor also has an extra mag, differently colored than the ones on his belt, that he carries empty in his front pocket, for the specific purpose of inserting it into the gun to drop the hammer with a trigger pull at the end of the COF. Is that allowed? Is it allowed if it's a tube and basepad -- no follower and spring?

No because that is equipment forward of the hipbone.

Doesn't that go against facilitating loading/unloading pistol?

I've seen production shooters load gun with 10 round mags, drop mag, holster gun, take one more round and top off magazine because they didn't want get bumped to open for having 11 rounds in magazine. It is difficult to explain to people that loading and unloading doesn't matter what you do. It's after the beep. I get the CoF starts with MR, but why happened to a little common sense? So if I forgot empty mag in my pocket from last stage and get to the next one and for whatever reason my mag falls out of my cargo shorts I should get bumped to open? I know someone will respond yes, it's you fault, you should of checked your pockets, no equipment forward of hips, ever under no circumstances.

[Shawn Knight]

The equipment was forward of the hipbone during the course of fir. Put it in the back pocket.

[Thomas H]

Yes, and refusing to acknowledge the point that several people have made is also quite simple.

Do tell, what point?

I believe I've said that people's opinions on whether or not this rule is a good one are all important, and they should indeed directly communicate that to their Area Directors. Any problem with that?

I've also said that the rule is simple: no equipment in front of the hipbones. So far, no one has been able to show that particular requirement is _difficult to understand_.

Thus, what point am I ignoring? Or instead, is this just a snarky comment because you don't like the rule?

I haven't said it yet, but I'll say it now: I don't like the way the rule is worded currently, either. I think that the enforcement of it is such that in certain cases, bumps to Open are ridiculous. None of this changes the fact that the rule itself is simple, straightforward, and easy to understand.

This doesn't stop people from arguing about it, of course---but so far, I haven't seen any arguments that support the contention that the rule is difficult--which is what you were replying to.

What about the rule is so difficult to understand? Note: not whether it or its consequences make logical sense, but is the rule itself so complex as to be incomprehensible?

People keep coming up with hypothetical "what if?" situations in which someone breaks this rule, and keep saying that the consequences "are wrong!". Okay---that still doesn't make it a tough rule to follow. If you don't want to break the rule, don't put any equipment in front of your hipbones in the time after the start signal and before you unload and show clear.

That's it.

If you want to CHANGE the rule, please do. That, however, is a different situation from the above.

So far, pretty much all the hypothetical situations break the rule in an obvious fashion, then the writer gets unhappy about the (hypothetical) trip to Open. Why? We get the point that people don't like the rule. So why aren't people taking more time to attempt to come up with good solid wording to update the rule? Why are they wasting time making up hypothetical situations in which the rule is clearly broken, and then being unhappy when they are told they broke the rule?

Back on topic to why I'm responding to your post:

So---what, pray tell, is the point I'm not acknowledging? People keep asking how to keep themselves from breaking the rule. The answer is straightforward.

[uzi]

6.2.5.1 says violating equipment rules during the COF, which begins at 'Make Ready', puts you in open. The mag has to be out of your pocket before 'make ready'.

hello, ipcs rule more better coz it only happen =after=start=signal=.

[ctay]

This is why I like open so much better. Rules in open all seem to have a basis in reason...

[sperman]

6.2.5.1 says violating equipment rules during the COF, which begins at 'Make Ready', puts you in open. The mag has to be out of your pocket before 'make ready'.

hello, ipcs rule more better coz it only happen =after=start=signal=.

I think the IPSC rule has its own set of issues, because of the way its worded. Can you only put mags in your front pocket on a table start? Is it still a bump to open if you start with all of your mags in your mag pouches?

From the IPSC rulebook

5.2.4 Spare ammunition, magazines and speed loaders should be carried in retention devices specifically designed for that purpose. Carriage of additional magazines and speed loaders in rear pockets of shorts or trousers is also approved.

5.2.4.1 For table starts or similar, after the Start Signal, the competitor may carry those items anywhere on their person, and this will not be treated as contravention of Divisional rules.

I think 5.2.4.1 would be something USPSA could consider adopting, but without the "For table starts or similar." Just let it be, after the start signal.

[rlv65]

My "near Open" experience came this year between Stages 10 & 11 at Area 5.

Each stage was a 10 round course. You ran Stage 10, holstered, stayed hot and moved forward to Stage 11 start position and would go again.

I threw a make-up shot so I used all 11 rounds that I had in the gun for Stage 10 (slidelock). As making ready for Stage 11, I pulled one of my 10 rounds mags, chambered a barney, dropped that mag into a cargo pocket (9 rounds in it) and topped off with a 10 rounder (now 11 in the gun). Still had 30 rounds on my belt.

Politely, the RO pointed at the mag in the cargo pocket and asked something along the line of "was I already in Open or just planning to go there...".

Not interested in a rules discussion at the time, I pulled the mag out and dropped it into the "beach sand" that I was hoping to keep it out of.....

A couple of thoughts that I had afterwards were - thanks to the RO for being sensible, is my cargo pocket behind my hipbone?, should the rule be revised to not allow loading from ahead of the hipbone? and I hate cleaning mags.

Thinking back over the years, I wonder how many multiple string classifiers (reload and make ready for the next string) I and others have shot as an "Open" shooter by putting those used mags into a cargo or front pocket????

[Chills1994]

You can re-shoot classifiers over and over again especially for gun jams and brain farts.

[Sarge]

Politely, the RO pointed at the mag in the cargo pocket and asked something along the line of "was I already in Open or just planning to go there...".

Should not have pointed anything out to a shooter. Especially at a level II or higher match.

That being said, It's a rule. Until it changes, if it ever does, we go by it. It seems like a dumb rule BUT it is easy enough to understand and obey.

[Sarge]

This is why I like open so much better. Rules in open all seem to have a basis in reason...

I shoot Open and like the less stringent rules for the division.

I have learned since going to Open that the one rule that would really suck would be the one that says, "If you violate any of the Open rules you are bumped to Production. "

[Shawn Knight]

Politely, the RO pointed at the mag in the cargo pocket and asked something along the line of "was I already in Open or just planning to go there...".

Should not have pointed anything out to a shooter. Especially at a level II or higher match.

That being said, It's a rule. Until it changes, if it ever does, we go by it. It seems like a dumb rule BUT it is easy enough to understand and obey.

Why shouldn't the RO do something to prevent a competitor from inadvertently breaking the rules?

Are you Quality Assurance in the USAF??

A Cop?

NO! You are an RO! You don't catch people in the act, you prevent the act, enforce the rules, and ensure a fair competition. It would be against the RO creed to not say something!!

Sometimes people just have brain farts... Sometimes they stink bad enough that you have to say something.

Edited June 25, 2012 by Shawn Knight

[Chills1994]

Now come on Shawn... We know those kinda RO's exist... The kind that like going GOTCHYA!

There might even be some MD's like that.

In addition to that creed that needs to be revisited by some people, that page in the rulebook that kinda describes the principles of practical pistol competitopn could use a looking at too... In my opinion...

But I digress....

[Flexmoney]

Why shouldn't the RO do something to prevent a competitor from inadvertently breaking the rules?

Read your rule book, Shawn. It's in there.

[Shawn Knight]

This is the part I am seeing over is, "It is my duty to assist all competitors in their attempts to accomplish their goals and not to hinder them by undue harassment and authoritarian behavior."

I like this one the most.

[Sarge]

This is the part I am seeing over is, "It is my duty to assist all competitors in their attempts to accomplish their goals and not to hinder them by undue harassment and authoritarian behavior."

I like this one the most.

Don't forget these are in the creed as well:

I will thoroughly familiarize myself with all current regulations, match rules and attendant subjects.

I shall strive to never give even the appearance of wrongdoing.

Enforcing the rules is not authoritarian behavior. Not enforcing the rules is poor ROing.

[Shawn Knight]

This is the part I am seeing over is, "It is my duty to assist all competitors in their attempts to accomplish their goals and not to hinder them by undue harassment and authoritarian behavior."

I like this one the most.

Don't forget these are in the creed as well:

I will thoroughly familiarize myself with all current regulations, match rules and attendant subjects.

I shall strive to never give even the appearance of wrongdoing.

Enforcing the rules is not authoritarian behavior. Not enforcing the rules is poor ROing.

I won't forget any of them... Well I am a little drunk right now...

[Sarge]

Why shouldn't the RO do something to prevent a competitor from inadvertently breaking the rules? Because the RO is then breaking the rules.

Are you Quality Assurance in the USAF?? This isn't the Air Force.

A Cop? Uh, no.

NO! You are an RO! You don't catch people in the act, you prevent the act, enforce the rules, EXACTLY and ensure a fair competition. If you coach a shooter you are not being fair to the other shooters. It would be against the RO creed to not say something!! I don't think so. But it would be against the rules to coach.

Sometimes people just have brain farts... Sometimes they stink bad enough that you have to say something. Where does it end. If a shooter comes to the line with no mags do you tell him to go get them? If you don't notice it and start him do you let him reshoot?