Production Mag Rules

[SDM]

I've yet to see anyone enforce this. I shot one match where it was brought up during the shooters meeting, but saw people bringing mags out of front pockets.

So having the mag in your hand is ok?

[SteveU]

I agree with all these points. All these situations where competitors can get bumped into open have nothing to do with the sport. If there is no intent to use a mag from a front pocket after the start signal, or a single bullet from a shirt pocket after ULSC and no advantage gained by loading from a Barney mag off the clock -- and yet you can have a magazine in your hand at make ready but not at the start signal..

Then it's clear that all these illegal scenarios that are being described ought not be illegal. They are simply from a literal reading of a rule that makes illegal simple logical things that are done to load and unload a firearm off the clock which does not confer any advantage. When rules defy logic and have unintended consequences that cause people to be moved to a different division for innocuous actions that do not affect the game, the rules ought to be considered to be clarified to match their true intent, which most would agree is to keep SS and prod competitor's reloads from a standardized equipment position after the start signal.

[Wideload]

I've yet to see anyone enforce this. I shot one match where it was brought up during the shooters meeting, but saw people bringing mags out of front pockets.

This rule may not be aggressively enforced at local matches, where it may be presented as a Friendly Reminder but, we had one guy on the squad that I was on at Area 3 get bumped from Single Stack to Open because of this rule.

[JakeMartens]

What's wrong with the rule now?

For one thing muscle memory of everything you have stuck in and out of your pockets your whole life is really trying to get you moved into open. Plus as was mentioned the rule is more of a byproduct than an actual intention and near as I can tell is not practical, nor does it affect fair play.

Muscle memory?

Where do you keep your wallet? In your purse?

I am not saying it isn't silly, but what is the big deal?

Unless all of your spandex pants don't have back pockets really is it that much of a problem

[SDM]

I've yet to see anyone enforce this. I shot one match where it was brought up during the shooters meeting, but saw people bringing mags out of front pockets.

This rule may not be aggressively enforced at local matches, where it may be presented as a Friendly Reminder but, we had one guy on the squad that I was on at Area 3 get bumped from Single Stack to Open because of this rule.

I understand what you're saying but I'm not just talking about local matches.

[sperman]

I don't think this issue is as cut and dry as some would have you believe.

See Here: http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=123213&view=findpost&p=1396632

The easiest way to avoid controversey is to not have a mag in your front pocket.

There are at least 2 threads on this subject, and at the end of the day, there is confusion between 6.2.5.1 and 5.2.4.

It would be nice if there were something official from NROI, but I'm not sure there is anything to be gained by going over it all again.

[Flexmoney]

This is clearly an unintended consequence that could be cleared up by adding "at (or after) the start signal"

So it is OK to walk up to the line with your Barney mag in your HAND but not in your front pocket at make ready...

Yeah, you can keep your Barney mag out of your front pocket -- but why not just fix the rule with the next revision?

What's wrong with the rule now?

Don't put a mag in your front pocket, seems pretty simple. I shoot ss a lot and lamr from my back pocket, have two mags there the barney and the one I start with.

Nothing needs to be fixed. Just followed

I'd say it would be hard for the layman to know the rule. I'd think it would be especially true with a rule that isn't very... intuitive.

[NewColonial]

Lots of discussion about this at Area 8. Easy to avoid, or not, this is something that needs to be explicitly noted in the rules. There's a whole bunch of shooters who had never heard they could not get their LMR mag out of their front pocket. To be suddenly told "it's a new rule" harms the sport.

Edited September 4, 2011 by NewColonial

[ihatepickles]

Anyone who's serious about changing rules should speak to their area director and the NROI. Enforcing this rule in this context is a travesty.

USPSA Contact List

[badchad]

I am not saying it isn't silly, but what is the big deal?

The big deal is it's silly. Unless you acidentally get yourself bumpted to open, then it's

[LPatterson]

/DEVIL'S ADVOCATE HAT ON/

There is a difference in the rules as to the start of the course of fire 8.3.1 and the start signal 8.3.4. Rule 5.2.4 Starts with "During the course of fire, after the start signal ........ does not violate Appendex D, item 12 while 6.2.5.1 specifies during a course of fire. So CRO/RO's if a rule is violated please be sure to specify the correct one on the score sheet. If I were on the Arb committee and you used the wrong rule I would have to over rule you though you might have been right in your decision. Where this becomes a sticky wicket is that Addendix D, Item 9 dealing with ammo capacity says after the start signal but what is the EXACT start signal 8.3.1 or 8.3.4. To me it is time to get the BOD together to define the rules.

/DEVIL'S ADVOCATE HAT OFF/

[Bucky]

So having the mag in your hand is ok?

This was asked a couple of times, but not addressed. I'd really like to know. Also asked and not addressed, putting / pulling a bullet out of front shirt pocket?

If we are to bypass intent, and go by these strict interpretations, what about the following:

At the unload and show clear, I tuck the mag under my chin while manipulating the gun with both hands? - Open?

I am shooting a seated stage, accidentally hit the mag button, mag falls in lap, I grab it and put it back in the gun - Open?

I have a jam, I rack the gun and a live round falls down the front of my shirt - open?

Edited September 5, 2011 by Bucky

[SteveU]

See? Plenty of new stuff to talk about.

[Tim/GA]

So having the mag in your hand is ok?

This was asked a couple of times, but not addressed. I'd really like to know. Also asked and not addressed, putting / pulling a bullet out of front shirt pocket?

If we are to bypass intent, and go by these strict interpretations, what about the following:

At the unload and show clear, I tuck the mag under my chin while manipulating the gun with both hands? - Open?

I am shooting a seated stage, accidentally hit the mag button, mag falls in lap, I grab it and put it back in the gun - Open?

I have a jam, I rack the gun and a live round falls down the front of my shirt - open?

I don't know of a rule that would cover having the mag in hand, and I cannot remember seeing anything like that says you cannot in the other threads. Of course I am not a lawyer so don't quote me!

[ramjr]

We had two people in our squad at the Area 8 match get bumped. The first for taking a mag out of his front pocket and me for putting it in my pocket after the unload and show clear command. My mistake was in not asking for a clarification of the rules, assuming that after unload and show clear, the cof was complete.

[Singlestack]

We had two people in our squad at the Area 8 match get bumped. The first for taking a mag out of his front pocket and me for putting it in my pocket after the unload and show clear command. My mistake was in not asking for a clarification of the rules, assuming that after unload and show clear, the cof was complete.

The COF ends with the Range Command "Range Is Clear".

[SDM]

We had two people in our squad at the Area 8 match get bumped. The first for taking a mag out of his front pocket and me for putting it in my pocket after the unload and show clear command. My mistake was in not asking for a clarification of the rules, assuming that after unload and show clear, the cof was complete.

They should have picked a different squad.

[vluc]

We had two people in our squad at the Area 8 match get bumped. The first for taking a mag out of his front pocket and me for putting it in my pocket after the unload and show clear command. My mistake was in not asking for a clarification of the rules, assuming that after unload and show clear, the cof was complete.

The COF ends with the Range Command "Range Is Clear".

Had a competitor there that insisted the COF did not begin until the start signal. After he shot, he came back and apologized to me saying he read his rule book and it did start at "Make Ready".

CRO's/RO's were informed that hands are not retention devices, so it would be okay to start with a mag in the hand.

Might be a silly rule, no sillier than not being allowed a dot in the magwell for production shooters, but it is a rule.

I liked the Gary Stevens approach to shooting single stack at A8. After the reading of the WSB, he showed me his front pockets. Sewn shut so he could not make the mistake.

Edited September 5, 2011 by vluc

[konkapot]

If a Pro/SStk shooter were to bring a bagged gun to the line, place it in front of him, and at the command of Make Ready he removes this gun from the bag..........

Open for him?

If the course of fire starts at Make Ready, he just retrieved his gun from an illegal position?

It is, as flex said, not an intuitive rule.

FY42385

[Bucky]

CRO's/RO's were informed that hands are not retention devices, so it would be okay to start with a mag in the hand.

Restriction on position of holster

and other equipment

(revolver speedloaders.moon clips

are exempt)

Appendix E3 is a diagram of "Equipment Position", doesn't say anything about retention devises. 5.2.4 refers to retention devices, but specifically says "after the start signal". (Of course that doesn't help the bump during the unload and show clear.) So I guess the question is, is the magazine equipment? If so, the magazine and gun should never be forward of the hip bone, even while shooting the course of fire..?

Another question, is a pocket equipment?

[NewColonial]

Had a competitor there that insisted the COF did not begin until the start signal. After he shot, he came back and apologized to me saying he read his rule book and it did start at "Make Ready".

CRO's/RO's were informed that hands are not retention devices, so it would be okay to start with a mag in the hand.

Since this seems to be something that is relatively new, at least in enforcement, and it was deemed worthy enough to point out to ROs before the match, one has to wonder why competitors seemed to find out only after being dinged. There was one RO that seemed specifically interested in watching from where Production shooters pulled their start mags. If ROs were told to specifically watch for it, so should have been the competitors.

If a RO says to a competitor when he walks to the line "I see you've already got your mag in your hand" isn't he going beyond the proper RO commands?

Edited September 5, 2011 by NewColonial

[waktasz]

We had two people in our squad at the Area 8 match get bumped. The first for taking a mag out of his front pocket and me for putting it in my pocket after the unload and show clear command. My mistake was in not asking for a clarification of the rules, assuming that after unload and show clear, the cof was complete.

Ouch!

I've never heard of that one, but I guess it's correct according to the letter of the rules. I'm pretty sure I'd feel like a dirtbag if I was an RO and applied that ruling though.

[Ed Deegan]

Keeping it in your front pocket doesn't make it an automatic bump to open, the bump to open is when you allow it in front of your hipbone.

You can still keep them in your front pocket if you fix your pocket so that it wont allow it in front of your hipbone. (sew it, safety pin, whatever).

Some clothing will allow this, some won't.

[JakeMartens]

Keeping it in your front pocket doesn't make it an automatic bump to open, the bump to open is when you allow it in front of your hipbone.

You can still keep them in your front pocket if you fix your pocket so that it wont allow it in front of your hipbone. (sew it, safety pin, whatever).

Some clothing will allow this, some won't.

or you could just put it in a pocket that you don't have to modify, ummmmm, let's see, how about one that is not near the hip bone, easily accessible, and comes on like 99.9% of jeans, shorts, and pants, oh I don't know something like a back pocket.......

[Skydiver]

Keeping it in your front pocket doesn't make it an automatic bump to open, the bump to open is when you allow it in front of your hipbone.

You can still keep them in your front pocket if you fix your pocket so that it wont allow it in front of your hipbone. (sew it, safety pin, whatever).

Some clothing will allow this, some won't.

or you could just put it in a pocket that you don't have to modify, ummmmm, let's see, how about one that is not near the hip bone, easily accessible, and comes on like 99.9% of jeans, shorts, and pants, oh I don't know something like a back pocket.......

Ahh... but my back pocket has the mag containing my "special rounds" for chrono.

Seriously, though, it's a two step process to building up the habit of using rear pockets:

Step 1: Empty your back pockets of stuff related to your regular day. Take out the wallet that you usually keep in your back pocket and lock it up in the car, or in the range bag. If you must have your cellphone with you in case the significant other calls to tell you to bring dinner on your way home, put the cellphone in a front pocket, or get a cellphone holster to put on your belt. I usually just put my cell and wallet in my range bag while I look for my first scoresheet before the first walkthrough.

Step 2: Find the right pair of pants. I have a pair of pants where storing stuff in the back pocket is, if you'll pardon the pun, a pain in the butt while standing and walking around. I've got a different pair that is worn that instead of the classic wallet imprint, it's got the two mags imprint on the denim.