Production Mag Rules

[Nik Habicht]

is USPSA "jumping the shark" with this rule?

I started thinking about that other shooting sport where "IPSC speed reloads" are verboten.

Is this rule meant to be a GOTCHA! to the IDPA'ers who crossover to production and SS, the two most IDPA like divisions?

No. This isn't a new concept.....

....at least for Production division....

[jar]

Before the first kerfuffle over this, my loading procedure was: take barney mag with 1 round out of right front pocket, chamber round, replace now empty mag in right front pocket, retrieve full 10 rounder from left front pocket and insert, holster, wait for beep. After the stage, I would put the partial mag from the gun in the left front pocket.

Between the first thread and the clarification, I fumbled around with everything in my rear pockets. It was really annoying, and required far more muzzle awareness while dicking around.

After the clarification, I went back to my old procedure. It now sounds like the part where I put the *empty* magazine in my front pocket is a bump to open. Not sure what I'm going to do now. I really don't like fumbling with the rear pocket. Maybe I'll hand my barney mag to the RO until the rule gets fixed.

I think this is a stupid 'gotcha' rule that serves no purpose. I suggest changing it to only using a magazine from an illegal location during the course of fire after the start signal being a bump to open.

[Thomas H]

It interests me how many problems people are having understanding this rule. It is pretty straightforward: after the audible start signal up until "If Finished Unload and Show Clear", you can't have any of your equipment forward of your hip bones.

That's it.

Now, if you think this is silly or ridiculous, that is a different issue--and one that should be brought up with your Area Director.

Whether or not I agree with this rule, I find it odd that people are finding it so hard to deal with. If you have a barney mag, keep it in your back pocket. It you have trouble reaching your back pockets, then 1) lose some weight or buy different pants, or 2) drop the mag on the ground or hand it to a friend behind you. This isn't rocket science.

Once the buzzer goes, don't have any equipment in front of your hip bones. That's it.

Again---if you think a bump to Open for an empty mag isn't reasonable, then try to get the rule changed. Contact your Area Directors, and give them a well-reasoned email why that should be changed.

But the rule itself just isn't that hard.

[vluc]

It interests me how many problems people are having understanding this rule. It is pretty straightforward: after the audible start signal up until "If Finished Unload and Show Clear", you can't have any of your equipment forward of your hip bones.

That's it.

Now, if you think this is silly or ridiculous, that is a different issue--and one that should be brought up with your Area Director.

Whether or not I agree with this rule, I find it odd that people are finding it so hard to deal with. If you have a barney mag, keep it in your back pocket. It you have trouble reaching your back pockets, then 1) lose some weight or buy different pants, or 2) drop the mag on the ground or hand it to a friend behind you. This isn't rocket science.

Once the buzzer goes, don't have any equipment in front of your hip bones. That's it.

Again---if you think a bump to Open for an empty mag isn't reasonable, then try to get the rule changed. Contact your Area Directors, and give them a well-reasoned email why that should be changed.

But the rule itself just isn't that hard.

LOL! +1

[aztecdriver]

Before the first kerfuffle over this, my loading procedure was: take barney mag with 1 round out of right front pocket, chamber round, replace now empty mag in right front pocket, retrieve full 10 rounder from left front pocket and insert, holster, wait for beep. After the stage, I would put the partial mag from the gun in the left front pocket.

Between the first thread and the clarification, I fumbled around with everything in my rear pockets. It was really annoying, and required far more muzzle awareness while dicking around.

After the clarification, I went back to my old procedure. It now sounds like the part where I put the *empty* magazine in my front pocket is a bump to open. Not sure what I'm going to do now. I really don't like fumbling with the rear pocket. Maybe I'll hand my barney mag to the RO until the rule gets fixed.

I think this is a stupid 'gotcha' rule that serves no purpose. I suggest changing it to only using a magazine from an illegal location during the course of fire after the start signal being a bump to open.

How about putting one more mag pouch on your belt, and use it. It sounds like your original routine was an absolute nightmare, and would require transferring the gun around to reach into the proper pocket. I don't get why you don't keep your mags on your belt.

And, the above bolded quote, I propose you leave the rule as it is. As an RO, I don't want to have to jump to every production shooters weak side so I can see where you are pulling the mag from every time you reload.

[motosapiens]

Once the buzzer goes, don't have any equipment in front of your hip bones. That's it.

My gosh, I just realized that when my gun is in my hand, it's in front of my hipbones!!! Same with my magazine during a reload. Do I have to shoot with my hands behind my back to avoid having a 'competitive advantage'??

lulz.

As an RO, I don't want to have to jump to every production shooters weak side so I can see where you are pulling the mag from every time you reload.

Do you count the rounds in every magazine right now? Why would you have to pay more attention to whether someone is pulling a magazine out of a front pocket than to how many rounds are in each magazine? I can't imagine that pulling a mag out of a front pocket would be either fast or non-obvious.

[aztecdriver]

Once the buzzer goes, don't have any equipment in front of your hip bones. That's it.

My gosh, I just realized that when my gun is in my hand, it's in front of my hipbones!!! Same with my magazine during a reload. Do I have to shoot with my hands behind my back to avoid having a 'competitive advantage'??

lulz.

As an RO, I don't want to have to jump to every production shooters weak side so I can see where you are pulling the mag from every time you reload.

Do you count the rounds in every magazine right now? Why would you have to pay more attention to whether someone is pulling a magazine out of a front pocket than to how many rounds are in each magazine? I can't imagine that pulling a mag out of a front pocket would be either fast or non-obvious.

Who cares? It's something else that I would then have to be conscious of specifically. Yes, I count shots fired now.

So, let me get this right, you are proposing to change this rule and now specifically watch for where reloads come from - regardless of whether it's easier or not - so that a few shooters can make their "make ready" routines easier.

No thanks.

[motosapiens]

So, let me get this right, you are proposing to change this rule and now specifically watch for where reloads come from - regardless of whether it's easier or not - so that a few shooters can make their "make ready" routines easier.

I'm not 100% convinced that the rule needs to be changed, based on the clarification from hq a page or so back. If it were changed, I'm pretty sure you wouldn't have to specifically watch for where reloads come from because if the rule says you can't use the mag in your front pocket, only a cheater would try to use it, and it would be obvious because it's hard to get a mag out of your front pocket compared to pretty much anywhere else.

I would file this in the category of things that I can't figure out why anyone cares about. A silly interpretation of a rule for no purpose except to be nitpicky and annoying, when there is no possibility of gaining a competitive advantage. Kinda fun to argue about on the internet tho.

[aztecdriver]

I'm not 100% convinced that the rule needs to be changed, based on the clarification from hq a page or so back. If it were changed, I'm pretty sure you wouldn't have to specifically watch for where reloads come from because if the rule says you can't use the mag in your front pocket, only a cheater would try to use it, and it would be obvious because it's hard to get a mag out of your front pocket compared to pretty much anywhere else.

I would file this in the category of things that I can't figure out why anyone cares about. A silly interpretation of a rule for no purpose except to be nitpicky and annoying, when there is no possibility of gaining a competitive advantage. Kinda fun to argue about on the internet tho.

100% with you. It does tend to reduce boredom at lunch...

[Flexmoney]

But the rule itself just isn't that hard.

Well, it is, really. It is a non-intuitive rule...about a fairly minor issue...that has rather large repercussions.

[bbbean]

I would file this in the category of things that I can't figure out why anyone cares about. A silly interpretation of a rule for no purpose except to be nitpicky and annoying, when there is no possibility of gaining a competitive advantage.

Ask any stage designer whether his stage has been gamed in ways he didn't conceive of when he designed the stage. By definition, USPSA is all about finding the best way to solve a problem, and leaving a "loophole" in the rules that sometimes lets you have a mag in front of the hip bone during a stage and sometimes doesn't was going to be gamed eventually. It also left a question mark over mags in pockets that could (I assume did, at some point) create the conditions for an arbitration and hassle.

Ultimately, it's one of the easiest rules to comply with. It takes approximately zero effort to put your barney mag in your back pocket instead of your front pocket, or to add an extra mag pouch to the back of your belt for the barney mag.

BB

[motosapiens]

I would file this in the category of things that I can't figure out why anyone cares about. A silly interpretation of a rule for no purpose except to be nitpicky and annoying, when there is no possibility of gaining a competitive advantage.

Ask any stage designer whether his stage has been gamed in ways he didn't conceive of when he designed the stage. By definition, USPSA is all about finding the best way to solve a problem, and leaving a "loophole" in the rules that sometimes lets you have a mag in front of the hip bone during a stage and sometimes doesn't was going to be gamed eventually. It also left a question mark over mags in pockets that could (I assume did, at some point) create the conditions for an arbitration and hassle.

Ultimately, it's one of the easiest rules to comply with. It takes approximately zero effort to put your barney mag in your back pocket instead of your front pocket, or to add an extra mag pouch to the back of your belt for the barney mag.

You make some good points, but still, if it's legal to put a mag or ammo into your front pocket, but not legal to remove them from your front pocket during the COF, can you give me some examples of how some dirty gamer could take advantage of it? My limited RO experience is probably showing here, but I'm having a hard time coming up with some plausible situations.

[bbbean]

I would file this in the category of things that I can't figure out why anyone cares about. A silly interpretation of a rule for no purpose except to be nitpicky and annoying, when there is no possibility of gaining a competitive advantage.

Ask any stage designer whether his stage has been gamed in ways he didn't conceive of when he designed the stage. By definition, USPSA is all about finding the best way to solve a problem, and leaving a "loophole" in the rules that sometimes lets you have a mag in front of the hip bone during a stage and sometimes doesn't was going to be gamed eventually. It also left a question mark over mags in pockets that could (I assume did, at some point) create the conditions for an arbitration and hassle.

Ultimately, it's one of the easiest rules to comply with. It takes approximately zero effort to put your barney mag in your back pocket instead of your front pocket, or to add an extra mag pouch to the back of your belt for the barney mag.

You make some good points, but still, if it's legal to put a mag or ammo into your front pocket, but not legal to remove them from your front pocket during the COF, can you give me some examples of how some dirty gamer could take advantage of it? My limited RO experience is probably showing here, but I'm having a hard time coming up with some plausible situations.

The issue is "in front of the hip bone" not "in the front pocket". At any rate, the crux of the issue is that there was a question on interpretation of the rule as written, the issue has been clarified, and it is easy to comply with the current rule.

[h4444]

But the rule itself just isn't that hard.

Well, it is, really. It is a non-intuitive rule...about a fairly minor issue...that has rather large repercussions.

I agree. I do deal with this one of two ways. If I'm shooting SS, it won't be a big deal as I have a gazillion mag pouches and I'll barney up from the next to last pouch, put that one back and load up the last pouch.

If I'm shooting Production where I don't have a gazillion pouches right now, I throw the barney in my back left pocket. Even though I'm naturally lefthanded (but shoot right handed) I bet 95%+ of you guys carry your wallets in your right back pockets. If you have to have your barney mag in a pocket,,,,,that's an easy solution as I'm guessing the pocket is empty. If your wallet is in that pocket, you're probably like me and don't have anything other than ID and some plastic in there,,,,stuff it in your range bag. I've never seen/had anything stolen at a match.....

Besides, if you're wallet is in your bag, and your bag is sitting on the vendor's table as you look at their wares, you may shave a couple tenths off that wallet draw time from the bag.....we may have to perform a study on that point.

Large repercussions, trivial to solve,,,,easy to gripe about. Like so many things in life, it is just easy and sometimes fun to gripe. Please note, I'm not condemning anyone on that statement, I know I do my fair share of complaining.

[Shawn Knight]

But the rule itself just isn't that hard.

Well, it is, really. It is a non-intuitive rule...about a fairly minor issue...that has rather large repercussions.

I keep hearing/reading some people say,

Don't do it period

Then I hear/read

It Ok as long as they don't use it

Then I feel like I don't give a crap because someone that needs to go to that mag will have so far screwed the pooch on that stage that the mag in the front pocket ain't gonna save them.

We need clarification on the rule to say ammunition forward of the hip-bone. This will alleviate any silliness in the future.

That silliness being, shooter begins or finishes COF with an EMPTY mag in the front pocket. A mag with ammo would be ammunition forward of the hipbone an therefore against the rules.

[jar]

How about putting one more mag pouch on your belt, and use it. It sounds like your original routine was an absolute nightmare, and would require transferring the gun around to reach into the proper pocket. I don't get why you don't keep your mags on your belt.

My gun never leaves my strong hand with the original routine.

Well, it is, really. It is a non-intuitive rule...about a fairly minor issue...that has rather large repercussions.

Exactly. I've already emailed my AD; we'll see what he thinks about it.

I suppose the real solution is for me to move out of Massachusetts, so I can just put 11 in the first mag.

[diehli]

It just occurred to me that one could run afoul of this rule if a mag inserted in a cargo pocket shifted and would up in front of the iliac crest. It would take an RO disinterested in the principles behind the RO's Creed to call that one, methinks.

If the rule is to be changed, one needs to be very careful with the language so as to ensure someone doesn't attempt to contravene the purpose of the revision, to wit: to further uncomplicate the loading and unloading process. Language like "fully enclosed within an apparel pocket that is not specifically designed to carry magazines" should be included, perhaps referencing standard jeans or cargo shorts/pants as the benchmark so that tactical pants that make access to mags easier, either with a different pocket design or with additional purpose-built pockets, don't become a required piece of equipment.

[CZinSC]

I like the rule as written. I see no problems with it. I will be writing my AD to let her know I think she should vote against any proposed changes. I encourage all of you that think the same way to write your AD's that you think the rule is fine as is. If the AD's only get letters from people complaining, they will think it's an issue that needs to be addressed and the rule changed unless they hear from those of us that do agree with the rule.

Yes, I shoot Production.

No, the rule isn't unfair.

[Thomas H]

Once the buzzer goes, don't have any equipment in front of your hip bones. That's it.

My gosh, I just realized that when my gun is in my hand, it's in front of my hipbones!!! Same with my magazine during a reload. Do I have to shoot with my hands behind my back to avoid having a 'competitive advantage'??

It's been a long day over here, so I'm going to assume you are being humorous instead of a pain in the butt, since I figured the actual topic at hand was obvious as the entire thread was about division requirements.

As an RO, I don't want to have to jump to every production shooters weak side so I can see where you are pulling the mag from every time you reload.

Do you count the rounds in every magazine right now? Why would you have to pay more attention to whether someone is pulling a magazine out of a front pocket than to how many rounds are in each magazine? I can't imagine that pulling a mag out of a front pocket would be either fast or non-obvious.

I can count shots no matter where I am. I cannot, however, see on all sides of the shooter simultaneously. And lots of people reload very slowly and badly. Front pocket reload (from a suitably baggy pocket) may look similar. I don't know---I haven't seen people doing it since it is not legal.

Flex said:

Well, it is, really. It is a non-intuitive rule...about a fairly minor issue...that has rather large repercussions.

I don't really understand the difficulty---seriously. What part of "no equipment forward of the hipbone" is difficult? I don't really find it any more non-intuitive that any other of our arbitrary rules. 2" from the inner belt. Butt of the gun above the belt. No more than 10 rounds in the magazine after the start signal. Every single one of those is simple and straightforward. Now, the reasoning BEHIND them may be strange or non-intuitive---but the rule is basic. Thus, not hard to understand.

Again, this is separate from whether or not this rule is needed, the consequences are reasonable, etc. However, the rule itself is easy. Why people are having a hard time keeping their equipment behind the hipbone----I don't understand. Do people have similar problems keeping their holster behind the hipbone? Their magazine pouches? No? (Other than people trying to shade the rules: "No, my hipbones really are close to the centerline of my body!")

The rule is simple.

Whether it is a good rule is arguable (especially the consequences, depending on the circumstance)---but "nothing forward of the hipbones" just isn't that hard.

[Shawn Knight]

You are right but I refuse to call someone on this rule for an EMPTY mag. I remember when some of this started at our club. I didnt agree with that type of ruling then either. I believe the spirit of this rule is to prevent reloading from in front of the hip bone and has nothing to do with an empty barney mag. I personnaly carry my loading mag in my front pocket until I fully make ready. At the signal I don't equipment forward of the hip bone.

There are some people here saying that if I UASC and place the mag in my front pocket I wll get bumped. I also disagree with this.

[sperman]

There are some people here saying that if I UASC and place the mag in my front pocket I wll get bumped. I also disagree with this.

The BOD agrees with you on this one. See Post #120.

[Thomas H]

You are right but I refuse to call someone on this rule for an EMPTY mag.

So, you'll pick and choose which rules you are going to enforce?

I remember when some of this started at our club. I didnt agree with that type of ruling then either. I believe the spirit of this rule is to prevent reloading from in front of the hip bone and has nothing to do with an empty barney mag. I personnaly carry my loading mag in my front pocket until I fully make ready. At the signal I don't equipment forward of the hip bone.

There are some people here saying that if I UASC and place the mag in my front pocket I wll get bumped. I also disagree with this.

As sperman said, the BOD already took care of that. Specifically:

"Production and Single Stack equipment locations are NOT intended to complicate loading before the start signal or unloading. (e.g. – a magazine may be retrieved from a front pocket to facilitate loading before the start signal or while unloading at the end of a COF without penalty)." ---from http://www.uspsa.org/uspsa-NROI-ruling-details.php?indx=51

I am curious as to why the big problem regarding equipment placement---is it that hard to remember? People's waists are so small they need the area at the front also? (Just came from some major matches---nope, that isn't the problem. Not a problem for me, either. )

I get that people think that the consequences are wildly overdone for having an empty mag in the front pocket. What about some Production guy who does an unloaded start on a 10-round stage, shoots 10 rounds, but when unloading there is an 11th round in the chamber? Didn't actually use the round, didn't make any difference to the stage, was just a simple mistake that made no difference---yet we put them in Open, too.

We can probably think of (and find examples of) a number of cases where there was no actual difference in stage performance, but someone was bumped to Open for breaking a rule. This is yet another one.

So don't store mags in your front pockets. Problem solved.

If someone can come up with a way to state this that wouldn't cause similar issues, I'd like to hear it. Note: the "no ammunition" one won't work, since lots of people drop a spare round out of a mag into their front pocket periodically and that would get them kicked to Open also. Hm. "No ammunition in loading devices forward of the hipbone"?

Or, you know, people could just not store mags in their front pockets.

[Chills1994]

Putting a mag in my pocket isn't dangerous or unsafe and has no competitive advantage.

You are missing the point... the rule is not about competitive advantage, or danger, on safety. Its a DIVISION RULE.

It keeps single stack the way the creators of the division/game wanted it to be.

Arguing this rule is on the same level as saying, why can't we use 10rd mags in major? Or race holsters, or bull barrels, why can't we have 44oz guns, or whatever else isn't legal in SS.

The division wasn't designed to be as free as Limited or Open. Keeping all your mags BEHIND your hib bone while shooting is a rule. Whether it be pocket or pouch, if its in front, its illegal.

I shoot single stack quite a bit(doing limited for the summer)... Its VERY simple... and people overcomplicate it.

Load out of your prefered pocket.

Throw the mag in a mag pouch, rear pocket, on the ground.

Shoot the stage.

Unload into your prefered pocket.

Nothing more, nothing less.

Personally I think you should shoot for "no score" if you violate a division rule. Its not that hard to read the rulebook and ask your RO before starting if you aren't sure about something.

Mike.

I have been there at a major match and asked the RO some technical question. This was back when I wore the hatcam. I posted the videos to video google. Some USPSA highers saw the videos and got in touch with me saying "by far, that is the worst officiating I have ever seen at any match."

Just because some unpaid volunteer is an RO, it doesn't mean they can cite the rulebook chapter and verse.

[Chills1994]

whoops double tap

Edited June 23, 2012 by Chills1994

[Shawn Knight]

So, you'll pick and choose which rules you are going to enforce?

When enforcing the rule is a bad call then yes. Rules are there to prevent advantage gained through not following them. No advantage was gained by an EMPTY mag in the front pocket. How many times have you let a newb slide for "not" knowing something and then a warning is given to correct the behavior. The behavior is usually not repeated and if it is we correct it by assessing penalties and/or match disqualification.

As sperman said, the BOD already took care of that. Specifically:

"Production and Single Stack equipment locations are NOT intended to complicate loading before the start signal or unloading. (e.g. – a magazine may be retrieved from a front pocket to facilitate loading before the start signal or while unloading at the end of a COF without penalty)." ---from http://www.uspsa.org/uspsa-NROI-ruling-details.php?indx=51

I am curious as to why the big problem regarding equipment placement---is it that hard to remember? People's waists are so small they need the area at the front also? (Just came from some major matches---nope, that isn't the problem. Not a problem for me, either. )

I know what the rule book says even though I don't always have it on me. Yeah I need to keep up with studying it more but I have a regular job that asks a lot of me as well(We saw that when I had to get refunded for the CRO class I couldn't make it to because the USAF decided to keep me a little later than normal. I don't have a great deal of time(or retired lifestyle) to study the rule book as much as I would like but I do know a large portion of the fundamentals.

I get that people think that the consequences are wildly overdone for having an empty mag in the front pocket. What about some Production guy who does an unloaded start on a 10-round stage, shoots 10 rounds, but when unloading there is an 11th round in the chamber? Didn't actually use the round, didn't make any difference to the stage, was just a simple mistake that made no difference---yet we put them in Open, too.

We can probably think of (and find examples of) a number of cases where there was no actual difference in stage performance, but someone was bumped to Open for breaking a rule. This is yet another one.

So don't store mags in your front pockets. Problem solved.

If someone can come up with a way to state this that wouldn't cause similar issues, I'd like to hear it. Note: the "no ammunition" one won't work, since lots of people drop a spare round out of a mag into their front pocket periodically and that would get them kicked to Open also. Hm. "No ammunition in loading devices forward of the hipbone"?

Or, you know, people could just not store mags in their front pockets.

Again... EMPTY mag... As in no ammo in the pocket therefore impossible to shoot therefore impossible to gain advantage from having a mag in the front pocket during a COF. Are we going to start searching competitors pockets after the COF?

I am going to start warning everyone I RO in Production and Single Stack. I do not want to be the NAZI RO like the instructor told us about but if I have to in order to keep other ROs from bumping people then I will.