Illegal Production Trigger Mods

[kgunz11]

on Dan's, and I believe Charlie's modification of the striker block, it is not just polished, it is reshaped, hence modified, and illegal because its not a listed authorized modification. And on it goes, if you go strickly by the wording in Appendix D.

I disagree with you about "only" being required. I also disagree that you can assume anything that is not written (ask John Amidon ). Adding, removing, bending, filing, grinding, etc, etc are all "modifications".

Authorized modifications

(Strictly limited to these

items and their stated

guidelines)

As written, modifications are "strictly limited to these items". Anything else is illegal.

Is it written somewhere where John Amidon says "Adding, removing, bending, filing, grinding, etc, etc are all "modifications".

I never said "adding, removing, bending, filing, grinding, etc.", I just quoted the rule book as it is presented to every shooter that joins USPSA. I said "you CAN polish internal parts". If I trigger bar is considered a minor component as is a safety or slide stop, then I say a gunsmith can replace a trigger bar with one bent to a more desirable angle. Not modifying the original parts, but replacing the original trigger bar with one made by the manufacture that is tweaked by a gunsmith.

You can disagree with me about "only" and "etc.", but the fact remains that until either of those words are added the list is neither inclusive nor exclusive. I really don't know how you can argue that, but do until your heart's content. It is or it isn't, it has to be one or the other.

In USPSA it is published that it is a freestyle sport. You can do anything as long as it is not written that it is prohibited. Now I believe that intent was in shooting a course of fire, but that intent is not clearly stated either. So one can infer that it works for the other rules. Unless it is written that you cannot replace a trigger bar, then you should be able to. I personally also feel that we can get into deep poo poo by overwriting all the rules, and the purpose of the OP of this thread is to discuss what is legal and what isn't, and how anyone can plan to enforce what is determined as legal or illegal.

I disagree with you that it says in the rules that someone can not modify an internal part. I have not seen that in my rule book, can you lead me to the section where I might find that?

[mike cyrwus]

So why bother?

exactly, my friend.

now lets go see what goodies are on the classifieds!

[driver8M3]

You can disagree with me about "only" and "etc.", but the fact remains that until either of those words are added the list is neither inclusive nor exclusive. I really don't know how you can argue that, but do until your heart's content. It is or it isn't, it has to be one or the other.

i'll agree with shadow. the rule is pretty clear. there is a short, defined list of "authorized modifications." and trigger bar is not on that list. (i believe that the BOD left "etc." off that list purposefully.)

i actually hope you (kgunz11) are right...but i dont think you are. (of course, i used to think "trigger work" meant that you could actually work on the part called the trigger )

[BayouSlide]

The rules should be set in simple yes/ no question -answers like

Trigger work - Yes

Stippling/ checkering -NO

Grip Plugs -NO

Internal work - Yes

Magwells internal/external- No

After market sights - Yes........................................................

Any potential Production shooter would be able to check the "approved list", then look at the yes/no compliance questions.

With a complete list of yes/no we wouldn't have to ask questions every 5 minutes and wouldn't have to receive an answer of "Read the US Production appendix".

Rich

Gee, that's what Production was before the rule interpretations....

Ah, for the good ol' days before the BOD decided to "fix" Production

Curtis

[kgunz11]

You can disagree with me about "only" and "etc.", but the fact remains that until either of those words are added the list is neither inclusive nor exclusive. I really don't know how you can argue that, but do until your heart's content. It is or it isn't, it has to be one or the other.

i'll agree with shadow. the rule is pretty clear. there is a short, defined list of "authorized modifications." and trigger bar is not on that list. (i believe that the BOD left "etc." off that list purposefully.)

i actually hope you (kgunz11) are right...but i dont think you are. (of course, i used to think "trigger work" meant that you could actually work on the part called the trigger )

If their list was inclusive, why not use the word "only"? I don't have the crystal ball to read their minds, so my interpretation of "if it's not written" freestyle sport leads me to believe it IS legal, since it is not written that it can't be done.

[Shadow]

kgunz11-

You're entitled to your opinion (even if its wrong).

Dan-

Great point on the striker block being a safety and allowed to be modified!

All-

I'll quit stirring the pot and slip into the shadows. Just wanted to show the curent production rules need clarification from the BOD since members seem to be interprting the current version in different ways (huh, kgunz11? ) and a LOT of production shooters/smiths would be unhappy if they were stickly enforced as written. Sounds like we're going to get that thanks to Lawman.

I vote for going back to allowing any internal changes which makes it easy to understand and enforce. I think the majority would prefer this approach to what we have now. BUT, I'd prefer what we have now to a trigger pull weight standard.

[vluc]

BUT, I'd prefer what we have now to a trigger pull weight standard.

Unless restricting any internal mods is a de facto way to get a new standard....

[makomachine]

Wow... My head hurts. I'm a new USPSA member and just shot my first match last night. I was planning on getting Dawson Precision sights and a Match Powder River Trigger Kit for my XDm 9mm that I'm using for production based on the feedback I'd received to date that both of these were 'legal' changes to make. It seems based on this thread that the sights would be legal, but the trigger mod would not??? Did this ever get clarified and is it in fact illegal to get a trigger modification done in production?

I read the rules as a new shooter - and my independent conclusion, prior to seeing this thread is that it was legal. If that's not the case they need to get more specific in the rules then for the new entrant to the sport...

[rgkeller]

When will the responsible USPSA officers make an official ruling/clarification of this rule?

[makomachine]

When will the responsible USPSA officers make an official ruling/clarification of this rule?

I sent the below e-mail today to them and will let everyone know what response I receive.

---------------------------------------------------

From: Jason Bratton

Subject: Production Rule Clarification

To: rules@ipsc.org

Date: Monday, January 12, 2009, 4:58 PM

I'm a new member to the USPSA and trying to understand

the rule for trigger modification in the Production

division. I have a Springfield XDM 9mm that I was planning

on having a trigger upgrade performed on by Powder River

Precision, Inc. Based on the rules as stated, it would seem

this modification falls under the "Exchange of Minor

Components" section as the modification is tied to

replacing a safety lever, adding an overtravel stop, and

replacing springs. Along with this is some internal

polishing of parts to improve functionality. Nothing on the

exterior of the gun is changed or modified - and all take

down and safeties are enabled per the factory standards.

I just want to be certain before having the trigger work

done and appreciate the clarification.

Thanks, Jason Bratton

Edited January 12, 2009 by makomachine

[kgunz11]

Jason,

The rule book says "no external modifications". As long as your pre travel or over travel stop is not visible from the outside of the gun it is currently legal per the USPSA rule book. No one wants to take your gun apart and argue as to rather or not the parts are factory components or aftermarket. Polishing is also specifically mentioned as being legal.

Some of the illegal modifications included those where someone drills a new hole in the trigger and repositions the trigger bar. Since it can be seen from the outside of the gun, it is a prohibited modification.

Hope that helps. I think the rules are pretty cut and dry, plain and clear, basically simple. What causes a problem is when people try to bend the rules to fit their own personal agenda.

[makomachine]

Jason,

The rule book says "no external modifications". As long as your pre travel or over travel stop is not visible from the outside of the gun it is currently legal per the USPSA rule book. No one wants to take your gun apart and argue as to rather or not the parts are factory components or aftermarket. Polishing is also specifically mentioned as being legal.

Some of the illegal modifications included those where someone drills a new hole in the trigger and repositions the trigger bar. Since it can be seen from the outside of the gun, it is a prohibited modification.

Hope that helps. I think the rules are pretty cut and dry, plain and clear, basically simple. What causes a problem is when people try to bend the rules to fit their own personal agenda.

Thanks for the clarification. I just received a response from my e-mail from the IPSC secretary stating the changes would be illegal under IPSC Production rules but they have redirected my question to the USPSA for the official response for USPSA Production rules. (Should have realized I sent the e-mail to IPSC and not the USPSA - but I'm on a steap learning curve as it relates to understanding this stuff at this point!

Edited January 13, 2009 by makomachine

[Flexmoney]

You are in Oklahoma. You will be shooting USPSA. Ipsc is a generic term that get used. Technically, IPSC is what you would shoot if you shoot outside of the USA. IPSC and USPSA rules differ slightly. Production equipment is one of the areas of difference.

[makomachine]

You are in Oklahoma. You will be shooting USPSA. Ipsc is a generic term that get used. Technically, IPSC is what you would shoot if you shoot outside of the USA. IPSC and USPSA rules differ slightly. Production equipment is one of the areas of difference.

Thanks Flex. I should have picked up on that anyway given I know that the USPSA is what I'm shooting, but thought they had the same rules I guess. Guess I at least got my question answered regarding IPSC rules with the modification. Looks like Limited would be my only option if I decide to shoot the Greek Regionals!

[driver8M3]

The rule book says "no external modifications".

that's from the old rulebook, not the new one. the new one says:

21 Authorized modifications (Strictly limited to these items and their stated guidelines)

•Internal throating and polishing to improve accuracy, reliability and function

•Sights – trimmed, adjusted, replaced, colored, or fiber-optic.

•Slide – refinishing. Milling of slide – only as required to insert sights.

•After-market slides and barrels – provided they are the same length, contour, and caliber as original factory standard.

•Grips – Internal beveling. Checkering, stippling, and addition of grip tape or grip sleeves. (see Appendix E4)

•Exchange of minor components (springs, safeties, slide stops, guide rods).

22 Specifically prohibited modifications and features

•Prototype and Single-Action-Only handguns.

•Disabling of any external safety or externally operated safety.

•External modifications or features such as weights or devices to control or reduce recoil (such as, but not limited to, thumb rests or components which could be used as such).

•Grips - Any addition or removal of material which changes the factory profile or adds function such as beavertail or thumb rest.

•External plugs (such as Seattle Slug).

•No magwell attachments or external flaring of the magwell. The lateral width of the well may not be more than 1/4” wider than the lateral width of the magazine.

[makomachine]

The rule book says "no external modifications".

that's from the old rulebook, not the new one. the new one says:

21 Authorized modifications (Strictly limited to these items and their stated guidelines)

•Internal throating and polishing to improve accuracy, reliability and function

•Sights – trimmed, adjusted, replaced, colored, or fiber-optic.

•Slide – refinishing. Milling of slide – only as required to insert sights.

•After-market slides and barrels – provided they are the same length, contour, and caliber as original factory standard.

•Grips – Internal beveling. Checkering, stippling, and addition of grip tape or grip sleeves. (see Appendix E4)

•Exchange of minor components (springs, safeties, slide stops, guide rods).

22 Specifically prohibited modifications and features

•Prototype and Single-Action-Only handguns.

•Disabling of any external safety or externally operated safety.

•External modifications or features such as weights or devices to control or reduce recoil (such as, but not limited to, thumb rests or components which could be used as such).

•Grips - Any addition or removal of material which changes the factory profile or adds function such as beavertail or thumb rest.

•External plugs (such as Seattle Slug).

•No magwell attachments or external flaring of the magwell. The lateral width of the well may not be more than 1/4” wider than the lateral width of the magazine.

Add to that the following:

Special Conditions:

- Handguns with external hammers must be fully decocked at the start signal.

- Unless specifically authorized above, modifications are prohibited. Except for Item 7, revolvers are subject to all restrictions.

- A handgun may be approved and added to the USPSA Approved Production Handgun List after the NROI Manufacturer's Declaration form stating that a minimum of 2000 complete handguns have been manufactured and available to the general public has been submitted and NROI has inspected the handgun for compliance.

Item 7 refers to Maximum size. The special condition in bold is what makes me worry. The trigger modification in my case is specifically polishing some internal components, replacing a safety lever, adding an overtravel stop, and replacing springs. The polishing, safety lever, and replacing springs seems to be covered - where as the addition of an internal overtravel stop is not specifically listed. I'll post what response I receive on the question but I think this still needs to be fleshed out better in the rules.

Edited January 13, 2009 by makomachine

[jobob]

Is anyone at USPSA listening?

BTW Mako, we call it IP-SICK, because it's easier than saying US-Pe-SA.

[rgkeller]

John Amidon's Opinion is not rule. Until his opinion is written up and approved by the BOD it is just that, his opinion. From conversations with multiple BOD members, I don't think that was the intent and I don't think that opinion will be ratified by the BOD. This has been brought up before and needs to be dealt with.

Edited to add, I just emailed Amidon and asked him to make an official BOD ratified decision on this.

Any response?

[Nik Habicht]

Just so you all know --- Mr. Amidon has a day job, the USPSA gig isn't a full time endeavor for him.....

In my experience he's remarkably quick to respond, subject to his proximity and time on a computer....

[kgunz11]

OK what about manipulating a part within the frame of a gun, for example the trigger bar on a Glock.

I know of a custom trigger job that utilizes tweaking the trigger bar by bending it.

I just want to know who is going to take every Production Division competitors gun apart and inspect each part. How will they know if something has been polished that is not specifically mentioned?

What qualifications and measuring devices with that individual have? How will you calibrate his measuring devices? How long will it take this individual or group of individuals to strip down and inspect thoroughly every single Production rig at a major match like the Production Nationals?

•Exchange of minor components (springs, safeties, slide stops, guide rods).

Disconnector is not mentioned in that list, so legally it cannot be replaced by a "Ghost Rocket". How many folks shoot a factory disconnector in their Glock? (yeah yeah yeah, Flex, I know your Glock is bone stock, but you're an exception to manyor we wouldn't be having this discussion)

The Production division rules are starting to get real stupid, and it's making a bunch of people "cheaters". Why can't they just make Production a DA or safe action only division with a 10 round max capacity. Then you wont have to worry about not stinking rules. Guys that don't wanna dick with their gun don't have to, but they don't need to cry about getting beat by someone that did.

[Vlad]

Reading this thread I had to keep on checking dates because I swear we had all of those arguments BEFORE the rule book become official and all of these pitfalls were mentioned then.

•After-market slides and barrels – provided they are the same length, contour, and caliber as original factory standard.

This is the one that really makes me laugh and I'm surprised no one has yet taken advantage of. Lets see .. what do people do to slides ... they like to lighten them. Note that the rule doesn't require the same metal or weight as the factory standard. Note that we have a Maximum weight, but no minimum weight for the gun.

I am shocked, shocked I tell you, that no one is making a titanium or bi-mental or some fancy ass slide that has same length and contour but weights a couple of ounces less.

[makomachine]

Just so you all know --- Mr. Amidon has a day job, the USPSA gig isn't a full time endeavor for him.....

In my experience he's remarkably quick to respond, subject to his proximity and time on a computer....

Just to be clear, I'm not mad at anyone with USPSA - regardless of how this goes down. I appreciate Mr. Amidon, as well as others who support USPSA, taking the time in supporting action pistol shooting. Without them, I'd be shooting down the firing line at an indoor range and not having a whole lot of fun in the long term. I just want the clarification so I know I'm operating within the rules. Do I have a preference or an opinion on the matter of whether it should be allowed? Absolutely. Will I lose any sleep over it? No. I shoot for fun and won't be topping the leaderboards anytime soon. If my gun can only be used in Limited, so be it. I just want to be fair to others and follow the rules in the spirit of good competition. I'll get smoked for having a Minor power factor weapon in Limited, but I'm going to get smoked in Production anyway.

As to my opinion, I think this modification is well within the reach of the beginner shooter and only enhances the enjoyment of a stock gun purchase. I became interested in USPSA due to buying the handgun to begin with and enjoying shooting it. Allowing me to make minor modifications while keeping it in it's basic stock form only sweetens the experience for me. Just my 2 cents...

[Nik Habicht]

My point was simply that it had been less than 24 hours since the question was asked of IPSC, who the referred the matter to USPSA, and that expecting an answer that quickly might be expecting a little too much....

[JKSNIPER]

21 Authorized modifications (Strictly limited to these items and their stated guidelines)

•Internal throating and polishing to improve accuracy, reliability and function

•Sights – trimmed, adjusted, replaced, colored, or fiber-optic.

•Slide – refinishing. Milling of slide – only as required to insert sights.

•After-market slides and barrels – provided they are the same length, contour, and caliber as original factory standard.

•Grips – Internal beveling. Checkering, stippling, and addition of grip tape or grip sleeves. (see Appendix E4)

•Exchange of minor components (springs, safeties, slide stops, guide rods).

22 Specifically prohibited modifications and features

•Prototype and Single-Action-Only handguns.

•Disabling of any external safety or externally operated safety.

•External modifications or features such as weights or devices to control or reduce recoil (such as, but not limited to, thumb rests or components which could be used as such).

•Grips - Any addition or removal of material which changes the factory profile or adds function such as beavertail or thumb rest.

•External plugs (such as Seattle Slug).

•No magwell attachments or external flaring of the magwell. The lateral width of the well may not be more than 1/4” wider than the lateral width of the magazine.

I think (IMHO) where the confusion seems to lie with modifications is when the BOD made the list of approved stuff and said its strictly limited to these items BUT then went on to specify certain forbidden items.

If they would have just left it with the statement of "Strictly limited to these items and their stated guidelines" then there would be less confusion about whats allowed or not allowed.

IMHO a beginner shooter should shoot his /her stock trigger a LOT before going on a trigger modification quest.

Get a feel for the stock trigger and learn to shoot that well prior to going out and trying to shoot a custom trigger job.

Just my .02

JK

[racerba]

Disconnector is not mentioned in that list, so legally it cannot be replaced by a "Ghost Rocket".

JA has answered before (either earlier in this thread or in another thread) to an email stating that installation of a trigger stop, such as the Ghost Rocket, is a no-no. This mod was legal before, not it's not. Changing of the whole upper is OK, but changing to this connector is not!!