bgary Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 Now days, we aren't alienating them by allowing some basic modifications. But that's exactly my point. How do we allow "the basic modifications", without also allowing the *radical* modifications? and there is no "got to have it movement" taking place Sure there is. This whole thread is people saying "I've gotta be able to [do whatever I want inside the gun] or I'm going to walk away from the division". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
driver8M3 Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 Sure there is. This whole thread is people saying "I've gotta be able to [do whatever I want inside the gun] or I'm going to walk away from the division". so you'd rather keep a rule that can't possibly ever be effectively enforced, and let them walk away? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bgary Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 Nope. I'd like to write a rule that allows the "basic modifications" without stepping over the edge of a long slippery slope. May not be doable. But that's what I'd *like*. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgunz11 Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 Flex ... tell me I misunderstood you... Are you saying we have enough production shooters now that we don't need to continue to promote the sport and try to recruit new shooters? I wish folks would stop crying like babies and shoot the same box stock gun as everyone else. Is this forum about improving our shooting or our gunsmithing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrShooter Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 OK, I'm sorry in advance... Maybe we're using the wrong terminology. Instead of "Production" or "Stock" it should be... ...the "Funny Car" Division. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 Nope. I'd like to write a rule that allows the "basic modifications" without stepping over the edge of a long slippery slope.May not be doable. But that's what I'd *like*. I don't think that's doable in a meaningful way --- meaning in a way in which enforcement is easy, consistent and repeatable --- and I've spent a little time over the years thinking about that concept. (Largely because you've expressed it a few times, and I thought it was worth considering.) I've also come to the conclusion that it simply doesn't matter --- because it's not part of what makes production, Production..... I don't believe the slippery slope is there --- as far as trigger work is concerned.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 I think one should also note that Production is our third most popular division, behind Open and Limited. In part of the country --- Production beats Open regularly, and sometimes Limited too..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 sorry if you want a good trigger go buy a $1500.00 Sig X-5 Not in any version of Production I've seen? (single action only trigger). The X-5 only really has a home in L-10 in our game... Just point of order... Chuck and MattK (HuskySig) both pointed out the X-5 Allround, which is DA/SA, but apparently is no longer generally available (though it appears on the Production list). If its a standard Sig DA/SA trigger, though, its not a super-bad "good" DA/SA trigger - not worth that much more than a normal P226. Matt pointed out the extra sight radius and weight, which may be desirable, but I haven't been able to find any info on what would make the trigger in that gun be "all that", yet.... Still looking Thanks for the info, guys Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Anderson Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 Soon, Chuck will tell you you're smoking crack! He does. But then, he also thinks Production Division has been around for 12 years. 12 years, 10 years, what's the difference. Close enough. (Approved at the 1999 GA for IPSC, USPSA to follow in 2000 if memory serves?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eerw Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 sorry if you want a good trigger go buy a $1500.00 Sig X-5 Not in any version of Production I've seen? (single action only trigger). The X-5 only really has a home in L-10 in our game... Just point of order... Chuck and MattK (HuskySig) both pointed out the X-5 Allround, which is DA/SA, but apparently is no longer generally available (though it appears on the Production list). If its a standard Sig DA/SA trigger, though, its not a super-bad "good" DA/SA trigger - not worth that much more than a normal P226. Matt pointed out the extra sight radius and weight, which may be desirable, but I haven't been able to find any info on what would make the trigger in that gun be "all that", yet.... Still looking Thanks for the info, guys if you install the SIG short trigger, short reset trigger..you can make the SIG pretty nice..smooth. the X-Five allaround is a heavy beast..IIRC Roger Sherman shot one for short time and ended going back to his 226SST because of the weight. neat gun..just heavy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Anderson Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 sorry if you want a good trigger go buy a $1500.00 Sig X-5 Not in any version of Production I've seen? (single action only trigger). The X-5 only really has a home in L-10 in our game... Just point of order... Chuck and MattK (HuskySig) both pointed out the X-5 Allround, which is DA/SA, but apparently is no longer generally available (though it appears on the Production list). If its a standard Sig DA/SA trigger, though, its not a super-bad "good" DA/SA trigger - not worth that much more than a normal P226. Matt pointed out the extra sight radius and weight, which may be desirable, but I haven't been able to find any info on what would make the trigger in that gun be "all that", yet.... Still looking Thanks for the info, guys if you install the SIG short trigger, short reset trigger..you can make the SIG pretty nice..smooth. the X-Five allaround is a heavy beast..IIRC Roger Sherman shot one for short time and ended going back to his 226SST because of the weight. neat gun..just heavy Rodney May did pretty darn well with one at Nationals this year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scooterj Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 I've seen racing refered to a few times in this thread. Let's borrow one of their rules. Top 3 finishers get the guns torn down and inspected for illegal mods. Illegal mods=DQ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eerw Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 Rodney May did pretty darn well with one at Nationals this year. that's cool. it is nice..wish I had one in my safe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BayouSlide Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 I've seen racing refered to a few times in this thread. Let's borrow one of their rules. Top 3 finishers get the guns torn down and inspected for illegal mods. Illegal mods=DQ Dang, guess I'm safe as long as the the M, A and B players show up But Scooter, I'm more in favor of a claiming rule, which I remember from motorcycle roadracing's Suzuki Cup production races (which by the way, allowed limited mods). How about you get to claim the winner's gun for, say, $650? Ought to keep people from shooting those expensive guns or investing too much in their mods. Dave Sevigny could make some money on that deal every match. Heck, some guys in our local clubs would make money on stock Glocks...if you could replace 'em considering the back order situation. I thought I was getting into USPSA to relieve stress...ever since the notion last year to consider minimum trigger pulls and eliminate the Blade Tech DOH, I keep hanging around these threads that make my head and stomach hurt. Maybe I should just lighten up and shoot Limited...I'm classified C there, too. For the record, the clubs where Scooter, Double Pedro and I shoot, the turnout is usually, in order of competitors, Limited, Production, then a couple of Open or Revolver shooters. Curtis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 Now days, we aren't alienating them by allowing some basic modifications. But that's exactly my point. How do we allow "the basic modifications", without also allowing the *radical* modifications How did we manage before this new view with the 2008 rules? and there is no "got to have it movement" taking place Sure there is. This whole thread is people saying "I've gotta be able to [do whatever I want inside the gun] or I'm going to walk away from the division". Well...that might be what they call a "clue brick". The train is rolling along quite well. Why burn the bridges? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 Flex ... tell me I misunderstood you... Are you saying we have enough production shooters now that we don't need to continue to promote the sport and try to recruit new shooters? You obviously misunderstand....quite a bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 I don't believe the slippery slope is there --- as far as trigger work is concerned.... I don't either. I think it's a straw man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgunz11 Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 Well until some cop thinks it was made just for him, most cops seem to have that way of thinking anyway. Uh... making a statement like that is not going to do much in the way of making people care about your opinion.. at least not on this forum.... Agreed. From the top of the page you are currently reading: Due to incessant bickering typical of the Rules Forum, we've (Admin/Moderators) come close to deleting the Rules Forum altogether. (Several times.) We've decided to keep it (by a narrow margin), however, with this stipulation:No antagonistic tones will be tolerated. Please post respectfully or don't post at all. Threads or posts not following this spirit will be locked or deleted, and offenders will be warned or banned from posting. Please, for the life of the Rules Forum and the constructive input gained from it, participate appropriately. Thank you, benos My post was not meant to be antagonistic, that's why I put the wink on there. As I told Chuck via PM, I don't have an issue with LE, my brother-n-law is, my mentor is, friends, and several shooting buddies are. I guess my sarcasm wasn't picked up by anyone. My apologies if I offended anyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgunz11 Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 More importantly, we have a huge population of current Production shooters. They are already here. We don't have to attract them. All we have to do is let them keep playing with the stuff that has been..defacto...the same legal stuff they have been using for years now. That is the part I guess I misunderstood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 More importantly, we have a huge population of current Production shooters. They are already here. We don't have to attract them. All we have to do is let them keep playing with the stuff that has been..defacto...the same legal stuff they have been using for years now. That is the part I guess I misunderstood. The point I was trying to make was that you don't run off 5 current customers in your hottest market...to gain 1 new customer. Lets say I have a burger joint and I am selling the best cheeseburgers. I've got people lined up around the block...every day...to come buy my burgers. They get their burgers and take them over to the topping bar and put whatever topping on the burgers that they want. They are happy and I'll see them again as repeat customers. Then one day, I decide that all they need on their burgers is a bit of ketchup. No more topping bar and letting them put what they want on their burger. They get ketchup...and that is all. No cheese, either. Now...maybe a gain a couple of customers that just like ketchup on their burgers. But, I lose all my valued customers that I built up over time. It's all still burgers. Hmmm...maybe I'll just sell them tofu burgers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgunz11 Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 More importantly, we have a huge population of current Production shooters. They are already here. We don't have to attract them. All we have to do is let them keep playing with the stuff that has been..defacto...the same legal stuff they have been using for years now. That is the part I guess I misunderstood. The point I was trying to make was that you don't run off 5 current customers in your hottest market...to gain 1 new customer. Lets say I have a burger joint and I am selling the best cheeseburgers. I've got people lined up around the block...every day...to come buy my burgers. They get their burgers and take them over to the topping bar and put whatever topping on the burgers that they want. They are happy and I'll see them again as repeat customers. Then one day, I decide that all they need on their burgers is a bit of ketchup. No more topping bar and letting them put what they want on their burger. They get ketchup...and that is all. No cheese, either. Now...maybe a gain a couple of customers that just like ketchup on their burgers. But, I lose all my valued customers that I built up over time. It's all still burgers. Hmmm...maybe I'll just sell them tofu burgers. Well if you cut the cost of your burgers considerably because you no longer have to offer the bar with the high overhead, everyone might continue to come if you offer them a nice clean, safe place to enjoy their burger, at a reduced cost of having lunch. You might discourage a few previously happy customers, and you might earn quite a following for having a $0.99 double cheeseburger that more people can afford. But now I understand what you were trying to say. When I first read it it seemed you were saying we have enough happy people now, why change things to bring more new people in when we have a strong following already. Have you ever tried Tofu? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
makomachine Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 I spoke with JA tonight at SHOT and you guys aren't going to like this. He was going back to his room to post something on the nroi website which if approved by the bod will return the production division back to a bone stock gun. No internal mods to the trigger components at all. Time to add on the extended mag release and move those magazines below the belly button then!! 19+1 is going to come in handy after all! Limited here I come! I didn't like my first Production Qualifier anyway! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HuskySig Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 IIRC Roger Sherman shot one for short time and ended going back to his 226SST because of the weight. I played around with one of Roger's X-Fives a couple years ago. He said the weight was giving him back problems, so he had Bruce Gray basically hollow out the dust cover to reduce the weight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 I spoke with JA tonight at SHOT and you guys aren't going to like this. He was going back to his room to post something on the nroi website which if approved by the bod will return the production division back to a bone stock gun. No internal mods to the trigger components at all. Time to add on the extended mag release and move those magazines below the belly button then!! 19+1 is going to come in handy after all! Limited here I come! I didn't like my first Production Qualifier anyway! Don't get in too much of a hurry to abondon Production! "....which if approved by the bod...." John's a good guy, but he doesn't get to make sweeping policy changes like that alone. If you're in favor of such a ruling, contact your Area Director. If not, contact your Area Director. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgunz11 Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 I spoke with JA tonight at SHOT and you guys aren't going to like this. He was going back to his room to post something on the nroi website which if approved by the bod will return the production division back to a bone stock gun. No internal mods to the trigger components at all. Time to add on the extended mag release and move those magazines below the belly button then!! 19+1 is going to come in handy after all! Limited here I come! I didn't like my first Production Qualifier anyway! It hasn't been approved yet, so it's possible that it might not come to fruition. I'm just posting what JA told me at SHOT. It will go to a vote in front of the BOD if I understood it correctly, and must pass before it becomes an amendment to the rules. With USPSA, just about any handgun has a spot somewhere. Shooting is suppose to be fun, find what about it you enjoy and pursue it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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