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Illegal Production Trigger Mods


Shadow

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Trigger finger

In 1988, the FBI predicted that the Glock's sensitive trigger and lack of external safeties would "inevitably ... lead to an unintentional shot at the worst moment." Indeed, 11 years later, the Washington DC Police Department alone had had 120 accidental firings, 19 officers had wounded themselves or others with Glocks, and the district had paid $1.4 million in damages from resulting lawsuits related to Glock accidents. In one case, an officer shot and killed an unarmed teen at a DC roadblock. Another officer accidentally shot and killed an unarmed motorist during a routine traffic stop. One DC cop accidentally shot his own roommate.

The Louisville, Ky. Police Department adopted the Glock just last year. Within six months, five Louisville police guns fired accidentally. One bullet hit a truck. Another officer's gun fired while he was leaning over to tie his shoe laces. After the third misfire, Louisville police rushed to defend their new Glocks, declaring the gun not guilty in the third incident -- the officer's gun went off accidentally as he was attacked by a man who had fled a routine traffic stop. Rather than bagging the gun, the department implemented new training in gun safety. Several more accidents followed almost immediately, the fifth an errant bullet accidentally wounding an officer's son.

It's also an adaptable weapon. The Glock's trigger weight and magazine capacity can be modified. When a police department negotiates a deal with Glock, it can specify the weight of its trigger pull. According to Pledger, the NYPD's Glocks have a relatively heavy trigger pull similar to that of a revolver. (We asked the FBI if it had modified its Glocks in a similar manner, but received no response.) A heavier trigger requires more pressure to cause the gun to fire. Glock also offers law enforcement an array of magazine sizes, which vary depending on the model. For a .45-caliber Glock, for example, a 10-bullet magazine is available to consumers, while a larger 13-bullet magazine is available only to law-enforcement. The law enforcement 9mm magazine, by contrast, can carry as many as 18 bullets.

There are ample opportunities for private gun enthusiasts to modify the Glock for an especially sensitive trigger. GlockMania.com aggressively markets many customizing devices to private buyers. The site offers, for example, a "Trigger Tuning Kit," which consumers can use to customize the trigger weight on their guns. (Glock Inc., itself, doesn't distribute any wholesale accessories that allow civilians to modify their Glocks' trigger pulls.)

In an extraordinary sequence over the last six months, the District has settled three lawsuits for more than $1.4 million. The District admitted no wrongdoing in the suits, but the cases highlight the chronic neglect of Glock training by the D.C. police.

Last month, the District paid $250,000 to settle a case brought by the family of an unarmed teenager shot and killed at a traffic roadblock in 1996. The family's attorney argued that the officer's gun had discharged accidentally.

In August, the District paid $375,000 to settle another case in which a D.C. officer accidentally shot and killed an unarmed driver at a traffic stop in 1994.

D.C. police officials repeatedly studied the phenomenon of accidental discharges, invariably concluding that there was no fundamental problem with the Glock itself – as long as users were properly trained. Officials chose not to modify the Glock trigger, as New York City police did in 1990, to require a more forceful tug to fire the gun. In 1994, D.C. police recorded more accidental discharges than the Chicago or Los Angeles forces, two far bigger departments, according to discharge records from the departments. Last year, the accident rate for D.C. police was 50 percent greater than that of New York police

Yeah, I can see how modifying a trigger could be a bad thing in court!

thread drift off

Edited by kgunz11
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It sounded like you were saying it was stupid to modify a carry pistol in any way.

Things like that don't go over well in court. It is absolutely unacceptable with any LE agency and they will tell you it is because of the ramifications of what might happen in court.

That is false, plenty of LE agencies let officers carry reasonably modified firearm.

Most people who I discuss this with would rather have a pistol that is easier to hit what they are aiming at, than to have a gun that is more difficult to hit their intended target. To me, that seems to be a pretty simple/logical.

I'll stand by telling folks to be afraid of reasonably making a gun work for them is silly advise.

I'm fixing a 9# trigger from the factory Wednesday for someone who would prefer their 1911 have a nice 5# pull. I guess I should warn them, they would be safer to keep an almost un-shootable 9# trigger, cause a lawyer might get them if they change it from stock. Now really, doesn't that just sound silly? With Kimber triggers being what they are these days, I don't blame anyone for wanting a decent trigger job done on a carry/duty weapon.

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I don't blame anyone for wanting a decent trigger job done on a carry/duty weapon.

Nor do I.

Then I'd hate to be the man in court trying to justify that lighter trigger when I just accidentally shot someone. I guess that's why so many cases were settled out of court as my last post states.

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Production rules could be simple:

No comps

No porting

No optics

No frame mods, unless otherwise noted

Have a max/min wieght

10 rounds in mags

Minor power floor scoring @ 125

Double action/Safe-action

Let them race! :cheers:

Edited by BlackSabbath
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Production rules could be simple:

No comps

No porting

No optics

No frame mods, unless otherwise noted

Have a max/min wieght

10 rounds in mags

Let them race! :cheers:

Isn't that division called L10?

Oops...

Double action/Safe-action

Power floor. Minor scoring only, 125...

noted. :cheers:

Edited by BlackSabbath
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The rules should be set in simple yes/ no question -answers like

Trigger work - Yes

Stippling/ checkering -NO

Grip Plugs -NO

Internal work - Yes

Magwells internal/external- No

After market sights - Yes........................................................

Any potential Production shooter would be able to check the "approved list", then look at the yes/no compliance questions.

With a complete list of yes/no we wouldn't have to ask questions every 5 minutes and wouldn't have to receive an answer of "Read the US Production appendix".

Rich

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Trigger finger

In 1988, the FBI predicted that the Glock's sensitive trigger and lack of external safeties would "inevitably ... lead to an unintentional shot at the worst moment." Indeed, 11 years later, the Washington DC Police Department alone had had 120 accidental firings, 19 officers had wounded themselves or others with Glocks, and the district had paid $1.4 million in damages from resulting lawsuits related to Glock accidents. In one case, an officer shot and killed an unarmed teen at a DC roadblock. Another officer accidentally shot and killed an unarmed motorist during a routine traffic stop. One DC cop accidentally shot his own roommate.

The Louisville, Ky. Police Department adopted the Glock just last year. Within six months, five Louisville police guns fired accidentally. One bullet hit a truck. Another officer's gun fired while he was leaning over to tie his shoe laces. After the third misfire, Louisville police rushed to defend their new Glocks, declaring the gun not guilty in the third incident -- the officer's gun went off accidentally as he was attacked by a man who had fled a routine traffic stop. Rather than bagging the gun, the department implemented new training in gun safety. Several more accidents followed almost immediately, the fifth an errant bullet accidentally wounding an officer's son.

It's also an adaptable weapon. The Glock's trigger weight and magazine capacity can be modified. When a police department negotiates a deal with Glock, it can specify the weight of its trigger pull. According to Pledger, the NYPD's Glocks have a relatively heavy trigger pull similar to that of a revolver. (We asked the FBI if it had modified its Glocks in a similar manner, but received no response.) A heavier trigger requires more pressure to cause the gun to fire. Glock also offers law enforcement an array of magazine sizes, which vary depending on the model. For a .45-caliber Glock, for example, a 10-bullet magazine is available to consumers, while a larger 13-bullet magazine is available only to law-enforcement. The law enforcement 9mm magazine, by contrast, can carry as many as 18 bullets.

There are ample opportunities for private gun enthusiasts to modify the Glock for an especially sensitive trigger. GlockMania.com aggressively markets many customizing devices to private buyers. The site offers, for example, a "Trigger Tuning Kit," which consumers can use to customize the trigger weight on their guns. (Glock Inc., itself, doesn't distribute any wholesale accessories that allow civilians to modify their Glocks' trigger pulls.)

In an extraordinary sequence over the last six months, the District has settled three lawsuits for more than $1.4 million. The District admitted no wrongdoing in the suits, but the cases highlight the chronic neglect of Glock training by the D.C. police.

Last month, the District paid $250,000 to settle a case brought by the family of an unarmed teenager shot and killed at a traffic roadblock in 1996. The family's attorney argued that the officer's gun had discharged accidentally.

In August, the District paid $375,000 to settle another case in which a D.C. officer accidentally shot and killed an unarmed driver at a traffic stop in 1994.

D.C. police officials repeatedly studied the phenomenon of accidental discharges, invariably concluding that there was no fundamental problem with the Glock itself – as long as users were properly trained. Officials chose not to modify the Glock trigger, as New York City police did in 1990, to require a more forceful tug to fire the gun. In 1994, D.C. police recorded more accidental discharges than the Chicago or Los Angeles forces, two far bigger departments, according to discharge records from the departments. Last year, the accident rate for D.C. police was 50 percent greater than that of New York police

Yeah, I can see how modifying a trigger could be a bad thing in court!

thread drift off

Sorry, I can't resist this drift. None of the examples you post had anything to do with modified guns. All the agencies you're listing here have stock or heavier triggers. None of this supports your premise in any way shape or form. The FBI is listed as saying the Glock is likely to AD. They issue Glocks to everyone but special teams. I can pull anti gun articles all day long. I also know enough to find enough expert witnesses to blow that BS argument out of the water and make the opposing counsel look dumb. That said, this is way off the original topic and I'll stop. Sorry for the hijack.

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A short history lesson about Production. :)

In the beginning there was no place in IPSC/USPSA where a double action auto loading pistol could be competitive. Therefore no one shot them in competition.

In 1996 IDPA was started and now there was a place for DA autos.

A few years later IPSC/USPSA saw that people were shooting these DA pistols and created Production. :cheers:

The equipment rules for IPSC/USPSA Production and IDPA SSP should be as close as possible to encourage cross over shooters. This would be a good thing for all shooting sports. :cheers:

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This thread was a fun read <_<

Besides getting the right sights and a good fluff and buff, is there a significant difference in pistol performance with additional trigger modifications?

For a Glock, new springs and connector will cost $20 or so...a price that is hardly restrictive.

CZ's are much more...is this Glocks fault? If you really want to shoot a CZ, then there are obviously additional costs involved.

Is the local Production hotdog kicking everyone else's ass because he has an overtravel stop...or because he practices more than his competition?

Are Dave Sevigny and Bob Vogel use super-secret Glock parts to rule the Production pool?

Is Ben Stoeger's 92F made of carbonite or adamantium(link)

Surely it has to do with a magical trigger.

I HAVE seen people overmodify a Production gun...this usually results in jams, jams, and swearing/jams. The best Production guns that I have seen are the ones that run the most reliably.

I'm not exactly sure what I am trying to say here...my Glock would pass any inspection with flying colors since it is barely modified internally. Even so, I am against creating additional rules that will piss off and disenfranchise the membership.

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The rules should be set in simple yes/ no question -answers like

Trigger work - Yes

Stippling/ checkering -NO

Grip Plugs -NO

Internal work - Yes

Magwells internal/external- No

After market sights - Yes........................................................

Any potential Production shooter would be able to check the "approved list", then look at the yes/no compliance questions.

With a complete list of yes/no we wouldn't have to ask questions every 5 minutes and wouldn't have to receive an answer of "Read the US Production appendix".

Rich

I vote Rich for USPSA Rules Czar.

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The rules should be set in simple yes/ no question -answers like

Trigger work - Yes

Stippling/ checkering -NO

Grip Plugs -NO

Internal work - Yes

Magwells internal/external- No

After market sights - Yes........................................................

Any potential Production shooter would be able to check the "approved list", then look at the yes/no compliance questions.

With a complete list of yes/no we wouldn't have to ask questions every 5 minutes and wouldn't have to receive an answer of "Read the US Production appendix".

Rich

Gee, that's what Production was before the rule interpretations....

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Production rules could be simple:

No comps

No porting

No optics

No frame mods, unless otherwise noted

Have a max/min wieght

10 rounds in mags

Minor power floor scoring @ 125

Double action/Safe-action

Let them race! :cheers:

+1

Why add more rules to an already restrictive division? Nobody is going to want to enforce them, and the process for doing so would discourage people from shooting production. Who wants to spend extra time going through Chrono and waiting for someone to detail strip your gun and examine each part. Further, who wants to strip and examine them?

As PB said, you don't NEED the mods to be competitve(Dave Sevigny, Rob Vogel). I'm all for letting guys who want to toy with their guns do so. I'll keep mine mostly stock and will almost never have to clear a jam. Also, those who chose to do a lot of modification will be at a disadvantage when having to shoot any match under IPSC rules. Lets let everyone play and leave the little decisions up to the shooters. It's not like we're seeing 1# triggers on productions guns. A little less overtravel isn't going to hurt anyone.

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Danial97 you don't have to worry about me. I used much of your same arguement last year when all this got started. I do appreciate some new material though, that I will incorporate into my new arguements.

Now, what can you do to a trigger that can't be seen? Just saying......... B)

Gary-

First a few thoughts-

Any one who wants to cheat using a Glock or similar (M&P etc) gun could easily substitute a stock ejector housing/trigger assembly in 5 minutes at a safe area prior to going to the chrono.

How many chrono workers/volunteers are expert enough on all Glocks, M&Ps, Sigs, H&Ks, CZs, Berettas etc. to catch minor tweaks? Who pays for lost or damaged parts resulting from match official mistakes? If a part is lost or damaged by match officials and the shooter can't continue does he get a match fee refund? And of course he is out travel/lodging costs.

Build up or grinding of parts not readily visible by field stripping would require detailed stripping of the firearm. Do you have 30 minutes per production gun for detailed disassembly/inspection/assembly? Would you do HOA and 1-3 in all the classes?

As far as undetectable modifications, in addition to Dan's answer, here's a few I've heard of:

Sear angle/engagement/depth cuts (unless you’re willing to micrometer measure parts and get the factory to provide you with manufacturing tolerances, lol)

Slight bending of trigger return bar and other parts (with heat if required).

For most guns, cut the trigger bar, jig it, space it .xxx longer, tig weld it back together, temper/heat treat if required. This eliminates virtually all pre-travel. Adjust striker block lifter (if required). File or grind weld to match factory contours. Bead blast, polish, or plate/blue trigger bar to match factory finish. Over-travel can be eliminated the same way.

Minor reshaping of parts (again, unless you’re willing to micrometer measure parts and get the factory to provide you with manufacturing tolerances, again lol)

TIG welding/reshaping of parts, followed by beadblasting or re-bluing

Lightening parts by drilling/milling, then tig welding end of hole

Movement of trigger pin to gain mechanical advantage, like Joe D's mods, followed by JB weld in new hole to cover pin heads, sanding smooth, and glass beading the entire plastic trigger. Modification would be invisible.

Internal reshaping/lightening the striker block in guns like the S&W M&P where you have to remove the rear sight to access it. (you’re going to tell shooters you’re going to remove their rear sight and reinstall it in the middle of a match?!!!!!)

Food for thought!

Edited by Shadow
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To stir the pot a little more, under the current rules, all of Dan's (M&P)/Charlies(Glock)/others' (both) trigger jobs that modify (or replace with aftermarket) the striker block safety are illegal in Production, as would be Dan's and others' sear modifications, are they not? :wacko:

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Maximum size - Yes, handgun with empty magazine inserted

must fit wholly within a box with internal

dimensions of 8 15/16” x 6” x 1 5/8” (tolerance

+1/16”, -0”) (8.938”x6”x1.625”)

(227.01mmx152.40mmx41.28mm)

Authorized modifications

(Strictly limited to these

items and their stated

guidelines)

•Internal throating and polishing to improve accuracy,

reliability and function

•Sights – trimmed, adjusted, replaced, colored, or

fiber-optic.

•Slide – refinishing. Milling of slide – only as

required to insert sights.

•After-market slides and barrels – provided they are

the same length, contour, and caliber as original factory

standard.

•Grips – Internal beveling. Checkering, stippling, and

addition of grip tape or grip sleeves. (see Appendix

E4)

•Exchange of minor components (springs, safeties,

slide stops, guide rods).

Specifically prohibited

modifications and features

•Prototype and Single-Action-Only handguns.

•Disabling of any external safety or externally operated

safety.

•External modifications or features such as weights or

devices to control or reduce recoil (such as, but not

limited to, thumb rests or components which could be

used as such).

•Grips - Any addition or removal of material which

changes the factory profile or adds function such as

beavertail or thumb rest.

•External plugs (such as Seattle Slug).

•No magwell attachments or external flaring of the

magwell. The lateral width of the well may not be

more than 1/4” wider than the lateral width of the

magazine.

Checkering, stippling, and/or tape may only be applied to the areas illustrated by

the dashed line boundaries which include the frontstrap and backstrap. Grip Tape

cannot be applied to any part of the slide, trigger, trigger guard, or any lever or

button. Grip Tape or Grip Sleeves cannot disengage a grip safety.

So according to the current edition of the 2008 rule book you CAN polish internal parts, it doesn't say you cannot polish trigger parts, so that is in fact legal. You can replace minor internal components, which lists springs, safeties, slide stops, guide rods, the one word missing here is "etc.". With the addition of the word "etc." one could assume they are allowed to replace a trigger bar with one that allows for a more desirable trigger pull or reset. It is also missing another word... "only". Without the word "only", one could also assume that the list in not inclusive or exclusive.

ETA: It also does not say you can "add" additional parts such as the set screw which limits trigger travel and reset. It does not say you can, or you can not. Some clarification needs to be made on that and the fix is simple. If it is outlawed, those that have it can remove the set screw without altering anything else and the trigger still functions properly. If it is not outlawed, others wanting that feature can add it.

Edited by kgunz11
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Maximum size - Yes, handgun with empty magazine inserted

must fit wholly within a box with internal

dimensions of 8 15/16” x 6” x 1 5/8” (tolerance

+1/16”, -0”) (8.938”x6”x1.625”)

(227.01mmx152.40mmx41.28mm)

Authorized modifications

(Strictly limited to these

items and their stated

guidelines)

•Internal throating and polishing to improve accuracy,

reliability and function

•Sights – trimmed, adjusted, replaced, colored, or

fiber-optic.

•Slide – refinishing. Milling of slide – only as

required to insert sights.

•After-market slides and barrels – provided they are

the same length, contour, and caliber as original factory

standard.

•Grips – Internal beveling. Checkering, stippling, and

addition of grip tape or grip sleeves. (see Appendix

E4)

•Exchange of minor components (springs, safeties,

slide stops, guide rods).

Specifically prohibited

modifications and features

•Prototype and Single-Action-Only handguns.

•Disabling of any external safety or externally operated

safety.

•External modifications or features such as weights or

devices to control or reduce recoil (such as, but not

limited to, thumb rests or components which could be

used as such).

•Grips - Any addition or removal of material which

changes the factory profile or adds function such as

beavertail or thumb rest.

•External plugs (such as Seattle Slug).

•No magwell attachments or external flaring of the

magwell. The lateral width of the well may not be

more than 1/4” wider than the lateral width of the

magazine.

Checkering, stippling, and/or tape may only be applied to the areas illustrated by

the dashed line boundaries which include the frontstrap and backstrap. Grip Tape

cannot be applied to any part of the slide, trigger, trigger guard, or any lever or

button. Grip Tape or Grip Sleeves cannot disengage a grip safety.

So according to the current edition of the 2008 rule book you CAN polish internal parts, it doesn't say you cannot polish trigger parts, so that is in fact legal. You can replace minor internal components, which lists springs, safeties, slide stops, guide rods, the one word missing here is "etc.". With the addition of the word "etc." one could assume they are allowed to replace a trigger bar with one that allows for a more desirable trigger pull or reset. It is also missing another word... "only". Without the word "only", one could also assume that the list in not inclusive or exclusive.

ETA: It also does not say you can "add" additional parts such as the set screw which limits trigger travel and reset. It does not say you can, or you can not. Some clarification needs to be made on that and the fix is simple. If it is outlawed, those that have it can remove the set screw without altering anything else and the trigger still functions properly. If it is not outlawed, others wanting that feature can add it.

Under the current rules, after removing the set screw, the gun would still be illegal because it has a modification (drilled and tapped ejector housing) that is not listed. :roflol:

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on Dan's, and I believe Charlie's modification of the striker block, it is not just polished, it is reshaped, hence modified, and illegal because its not a listed authorized modification. And on it goes, if you go strickly by the wording in Appendix D.

I disagree with you about "only" being required. I also disagree that you can assume anything that is not written (ask John Amidon :rolleyes: ). Adding, removing, bending, filing, grinding, etc, etc are all "modifications".

Authorized modifications

(Strictly limited to these

items and their stated

guidelines)

As written, modifications are "strictly limited to these items". Anything else is illegal.

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on Dan's, and I believe Charlie's modification of the striker block, it is not just polished, it is reshaped, hence modified, and illegal because its not a listed authorized modification. And on it goes, if you go strickly by the wording in Appendix D.

To get really nit picky since the plunger is a drop safety and you are allowed:

•Exchange of minor components (springs, safeties,

slide stops, guide rods).

it is perfectly legal for me to drop in one of my custom plunger safeties. B)

But this is not the point, The point is you should only make rules that can practically be enforced. Limiting trigger work beyond pull weights is absolutly impossible to enforce. So why bother?

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