RIIID Posted January 14, 2009 Share Posted January 14, 2009 From JA's response that would make thousands of guns that are illegal in the fastest growing division in USPSA. The train never stopped at the station Flex, it just high balled right on through the station with nobody on board. Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow Posted January 14, 2009 Author Share Posted January 14, 2009 Indeed! I think (and have said) John's interpretation is correct as the rules are currently written. However, I hope the majority of the BOD hops on Flex's train when the issue comes before them!. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BayouSlide Posted January 15, 2009 Share Posted January 15, 2009 For the record, I have always and still support the ability to do internal trigger work and am against any form of trigger weighing. Keep up the good work, Gary...need a few more like you on the BOD Curtis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eerw Posted January 15, 2009 Share Posted January 15, 2009 just info. the NROI ruling on replacing parts on a production gun Title: Replacement parts for Production division Created: 8/12/08 Updated: 8/19/08 Effective: 8/19/08 Rule number: Appendix D4 item Applies to: Pistol Ruling authority: John Amidn Status: Released Question May I replace external parts on my Production gun with aftermarket parts. Ruling Aftermarket parts are allowed but restricted to those listed in Appendix D4, any other part must be OEM, either offered on an approved model for Production or in their catalog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ammowaster Posted January 15, 2009 Share Posted January 15, 2009 I am glad I did not send my sig off to Bruce Gray for his trigger work which would have included a internal set screw I think I will stick to stock on my sig until something shakes out for certain I wanted to see where I can go in production but maybe Limited or Limited 10 is the way to go??? I would like to think I am on the Flex train and feel bad for all the people that have done work that could turn out to be illegal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BayouSlide Posted January 15, 2009 Share Posted January 15, 2009 Hard to describe the joy I feel that I can't change to an aftermarket $15 connector in a Production Glock without being pushed into Limited...let alone a $.02 set screw in the trigger housing. Guess I should start saving for a $1,500+ pistol, running tuned mags that cost $100+ a piece. Oops, forgot a couple bills for the speed holster setup...now where's that credit card? From my lowly vantage point here in the trenches, it's truly hard to see how the powers that be are for looking out for the interests of the Production class...thinking this is SURE to make it more popular. Sure, alright, sure to make Limited more popular What's that you say...if you don't like the rules, don't shoot Production? I already made that decision, unfortunately it was based on the Production rules previous to 2008 when I got my start. Vox clamantis in deserto: Why the overweeming need to fix something that wasn't broke in the first place?. Curtis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted January 15, 2009 Share Posted January 15, 2009 Sorry...these aren't meant to be smartassed, but they are too funny. (That cooliris download for FireFox is too much fun.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Anderson Posted January 15, 2009 Share Posted January 15, 2009 Well, I got my reply back from John today and wanted to share that clarification with the group. (Although I think some of you already knew where this was headed)----------------------------------------- From: John Amidon Subject: RE: Production Rule Clarification (USPSA) To: Jason Date: Wednesday, January 14, 2009, 4:44 PM Hi Jason, The rule currently says "you can only do these specific things", and one of the "specific things" is to swap out "springs, safeties, slide stops, guide rods". Period. It doesn't say "etc.". It doesn't say "for example". It doesn't say disconnectors, triggers, strikers, or all kinds of other things. Nor can you *MODIFY* those things, because that "modification" is not on the list of things that are specifically allowed. I just want to make it REALLY REALLY CLEAR that what we "intend" by the rules is for it to be a "stock" division, not an equipment race, and we "intend" for the guns to remain close to the way they came from the factory. Hope this helps clearing this issue up for you. Regards, John Amidon Ok, it's REALLY REALLY CLEAR to me that Production is supposed to be a stock division apparently, except for changing slides, barrels, milling in sights, checkering and stippling, the addition of butt plugs and internal magwells, springs, safeties, slide stops, and tungsten guide rods. Sorry guys, but stock division is no longer an option. If John is also saying no modificaitons of those items I doubt any Production gun finishing in the top 25 was legal at last years nationals. And since none of them were caught, that means there is a serious problem. A rule that can't be enforced is not a good rule. It is a guarantee to cause hard feelings by everyone. Either the people who spent money on modificaitons that were legal and now aren't or the people that assume someone has a modified gun but no way to prove it. I can barely figure out how to tear my CZ down beyond a simple field strip. (it normally results in a call to Angus and 20 minutes of him calling me an idiot. I'm not saying he's wrong). There is no way at a National match I'm going to let the Chrono guy detail strip my gun when I can't even get it back together without factory support and replacement parts. This rule needs to be amended immediately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob D Posted January 15, 2009 Share Posted January 15, 2009 (edited) I'm with Flex on this. There also seems to be an unintentional double standard with regard to "factory" modifications. People are going to be able to send their XD's and CZ's away for custom trigger work because these companies offer factory customization. Does this mean the springfield custom shop can do whatever they want to an XD because it's an official factory modification? If so, this seems to put the companies that are more focused on service weapons that competition weapons at a huge disadvantage. So hypothetically, if I sent my glock off to the "Glock Custom Shop," they could add the set screws for overtravel and pre-travel stops, but I can't do it at home by myself because then it's not a "Factory authorized modification?" Doesn't seem like this prevents anybody from having competition quality triggers, it just make those who want them buy from certain companies and send their guns in for expensive "factory" work rather than doing it themselves. Sounds like an arms race to me... Correct me if I'm wrong on this. Edited January 15, 2009 by Rob D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoMiE Posted January 15, 2009 Share Posted January 15, 2009 (edited) Correct me if I'm wrong on this. That was the first thing that came to my mind regarding this rule. XDs and CZs will soon be the only guns to shoot if you can't replace your disconnector or trigger housing with over-travel stop on Glocks. Not only did you make guns that were legal no longer legal, you also gave advantage to "Custom Shop" guns. Go back to do whatever you want as long as it is not externally visible interpretation. Edited January 15, 2009 by HoMiE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BayouSlide Posted January 15, 2009 Share Posted January 15, 2009 Correct me if I'm wrong on this. That was the first thing that came to my mind regarding this rule. XDs and CZs will soon be the only guns to shoot if you can't replace your disconnector or trigger housing with over-travel stop on Glocks. Not only did you make guns that were legal no longer legal, you also gave advatage to "Custom Shop" guns. Go back to do whatever you want as long as it is not externally visible interpretation. I big nod from the "amen corner" on that, Homie. Curtis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgunz11 Posted January 15, 2009 Share Posted January 15, 2009 Seems most of my pards are now "cheating". This is going to make a lot of them happy. Tod Litt, I'd like to hear what you think about this new "clarification" on the current rule book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgunz11 Posted January 15, 2009 Share Posted January 15, 2009 I'm with Flex on this.So hypothetically, if I sent my glock off to the "Glock Custom Shop," they could add the set screws for overtravel and pre-travel stops, but I can't do it at home by myself because then it's not a "Factory authorized modification?" Doesn't seem like this prevents anybody from having competition quality triggers, it just make those who want them buy from certain companies and send their guns in for expensive "factory" work rather than doing it themselves. Sounds like an arms race to me... Correct me if I'm wrong on this. It's not legal no matter WHO does it. Rather you pay $10,000,000.00 for it or do it in your bathroom. It's not legal no way no how. I'll be glad when something is written and in print somewhere this will all be official. Then the next problem, who is going to enforce it? Checking for the set screw in a Glock is real easy. Looks like a Lim 10 minor division is coming on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
00bullitt Posted January 15, 2009 Share Posted January 15, 2009 Seems most of my pards are now "cheating". This is going to make a lot of them happy.Tod Litt, I'd like to hear what you think about this new "clarification" on the current rule book. USPSA needs to get their act together and draw a definitive line so we have something to go by. We can't change internal parts or modify internals(according to JA's recent opinion).....but we can replace slides,barrels and mill our factory slides to accept aftermarket sights and stipple our grips? Give me a dang break. I'm just gonna leave it at that and stop the speculation until the BOD comes up with a solid ruling rather than JA's opinion then I'll start looking at making my gun conform to the rules the way they were intended once that is clarified officially. Right now.....my gun is as legal as the rest of the bunch. I've got a crap load of thought on this and alot I'd like to type....instead I'm gonna start writing my Area Director and Section Coordinator to go to bat for us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
makomachine Posted January 15, 2009 Share Posted January 15, 2009 Looks like a Lim 10 minor division is coming on. Call it what you like, but a minor division of Limited, whether it be 10 or not, is fine with me. I'm really new at all this and just got my results back from my first match this Sunday. Given those results, shooting in Limited vs Production isn't really going to matter much. In all seriousness, it does sound like there is a LARGE number of people that want something different than the recently stated intent. I'm not sure if there is an 'official' area to post suggestions or comments to the USPSA board but I'd be happy to put 2 more cents into it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted January 15, 2009 Share Posted January 15, 2009 Frankly, JA's opinion pisses me off. I was shooting Glocks before the new rules and was legal. Now I'm a cheater? Anybody wanna buy a G17 and a G34? The hell with Production. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
00bullitt Posted January 15, 2009 Share Posted January 15, 2009 Frankly, JA's opinion pisses me off. I was shooting Glocks before the new rules and was legal. Now I'm a cheater? Anybody wanna buy a G17 and a G34? The hell with Production. Chill out for just a minute or two John. Everybody shares your discontent. But it was his opinion and we all know what opinions are like. I feel pretty confident the BOD will make better light of the situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
driver8M3 Posted January 15, 2009 Share Posted January 15, 2009 I feel pretty confident the BOD will make better light of the situation. it was the BOD that actually wrote the rule...and at least one other BOD member posted on this thread something very similar to JA's opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bgary Posted January 15, 2009 Share Posted January 15, 2009 I feel pretty confident the BOD will make better light of the situation. +1 What got pasted here was an opinion. It isn't an official ruling until/unless the Board blesses it and it gets published on uspsa.org, which (given the "heat" in this issue) may take a bit. We're already involved in the discussion, this will turn up the dial. I continue to believe that we can come up with rules that *both* preserve the "mostly stock" goal (?) of the division, and "make sense". I personally don't think it is "anything goes", and I personally don't believe it is "box stock, no mods". I think the right answer lies somewhere inbetween. If you want to *help*, there's lots of opportunity. Feel free to chime in with ideas for language which -- doesn't create an "arms race" of cascading gotta-have-em modifications -- doesn't reward creativity in "hiding" modifications -- doesn't undercut the core notion of a "production" gun (adjective, means "as produced") -- doesn't obsolete currently-legal guns -- doesn't create [new] unintended consequences -- doesn't require a tech teardown to tell if it is legal -- doesn't involve a minimum trigger pull -- and *is* objective, logical and enforceable Really. Seriously. We'd love the help. B (It's easy to tell us how stupid we are. It's a lot harder to be part of a good solution.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
00bullitt Posted January 15, 2009 Share Posted January 15, 2009 I feel pretty confident the BOD will make better light of the situation. it was the BOD that actually wrote the rule...and at least one other BOD member posted on this thread something very similar to JA's opinion. Well..........it wouldn't be up for such confusing interpretation if it were written more definitive. Strict definition needs to be given since it is this vague. If the BOD intended the current rules to be interpreted as such as what JA has opined....then so be it. Production will become a dying division. If a strictly "Stock" division were meant........why allow slides to be changed? Or even barrels for that matter? Those kind of allowances cause people to impart logic in interpretation of the written rules. Hence where we are at right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted January 15, 2009 Share Posted January 15, 2009 Guys/Gals I think you know where I stand on this issue. With that said though, Bruce has asked a valid question. If anyone can write a rule that covers what he has outlined, is clear, definitive, and has no wiggle room in it, I believe it will be eagerly accepted. One of the biggest problems, IMO, is that our sport was born out of competition. We are by our nature competitors. We want to excel in the sport and will work toward that goal. One way is to improve our firearm to more suit what we are comfortable with. It is human nature. Another big problem is when we write that "perfect" rule, I can almost guarantee you some gun company will manufacture (not replace parts) a gun that will be the perceived "gun to have" to help corner market share. We are in much the same situation as a dog chasing it's tail. Just when you get close it moves away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
driver8M3 Posted January 15, 2009 Share Posted January 15, 2009 (It's easy to tell us how stupid we are. It's a lot harder to be part of a good solution.) i appreciate your willingness to look for a solution. however, plenty of people offered solutions on the uspsa forum during the discussion period that preceded the new rule book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted January 15, 2009 Share Posted January 15, 2009 I literally covered every line item for Production division before the last rule book. I felt that we all ought to put up or shut up, so I put up. I'll have to dig that up and see if any of it is relevant to the current conversation. BG, where do we send the input? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgunz11 Posted January 15, 2009 Share Posted January 15, 2009 Why can't it just be written that you can replace factory components with aftermarket components that have been polished or tuned, but not altered in shape or dimension. Why can't it just be written that you cannot add to nor remove any part of the gun as it comes from the factory? I can think of one reason being that USPSA would have to provide a knowledgeable factory trained rep for every gun on the list that can disassemble and inspect each gun. That would be a gigantic undertaking and would open the door to someone saying "my gun shot fine before they stripped it down". There's really no way to police the rules if made as strict as Amidon would like. I say let folks do whatever they want to as long as it doesn't disable any safety features of the weapon and is not externally visible. That would allow folks to replace internal parts with better ones. It would also make life easy for the USPSA in that they do not have to have an inspection table, and all currently *thought* legal guns would be considered legal according to the rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BayouSlide Posted January 15, 2009 Share Posted January 15, 2009 Guys/Gals I think you know where I stand on this issue. With that said though, Bruce has asked a valid question. If anyone can write a rule that covers what he has outlined, is clear, definitive, and has no wiggle room in it, I believe it will be eagerly accepted. OK, I'll take a stab at it. • Only handguns approved and listed on the USPSA website may be used in Production Division.* • Single-action-only handguns are prohibited.* • Handgun may not be in single action mode at start signal.* • No externally visible modifications except sights and grip tape or sleeves, unless the replacement parts are OEM and available on similar models from that manufacturer. • All safeties must remain functional. • Replacement barrels allowed provided barrel length is same as original factory standard. Heavy barrels and/or barrel sleeves not allowed.* *Pulled verbatim from the pre-2008 rulebook. Benefits include simplicity, room for tuning improvements to trigger or action, and no need to go beyond a visual inspection to ensure compliance. Curtis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts