Match DQ's, or not?

[zhunter]

This past weekend I shot a two day match, really two separate ones, but same place and well, that is not important...

A shooter engaged steel from WAY under 7 yards, and was stopped by the RO. The shooter then went to the MD and got a re-shoot. The stage description was NOT really clear, but this gentleman was a LONGTIME shooter and knows better. The steel was supposed to be engaged from a previous position.

DQ or not?

Another incident happened on Saturday.

A junior girl broke the 180 in many of our opinions, and she was nicely taken aside by both the RO and her father after the stage and told about the breach, essentially a warning. Which is good, and bad. 180's are dangerous!!!

DQ or not?

[AikiDale]

Shooting the steel is a DQ.

As for the Junior shooter. Many shooters opinions do not count for much. If the RO thought she broke the 180 it is a DQ. By following the rules competitors learn the rules. She was told about the rules before she began shooting the match?

[JThompson]

DQ for both

[Coolduckboy]

I think DQ for both.

It is a very humble experience for the Longtime shooter and the junior should take it as a learning experience and have a something to focus on when he/she is dry-firing and going through commands.

[yoshidaex]

an explanation and a DQ for both. The rules are there for everyones safety. No one should be exempt.

I don't want to sound like an a-hole but maybe the shooter who shot the steel should have been hit by richochet so he'll remember not to shoot steel at less than 7 yards the next time.

Edited November 12, 2007 by yoshidaex

[open17]

DQ on the steel. We should all know better, but sometimes a little reminder

in the WSB isn't a bad idea. I've even written in the WSB " Per rule 10.4.7, a shot

fired at a metal target nearer than 7 meters is a match DQ".

180. What did the RO see???? I've had it happen more than once that the gallery "saw" a

180 violation but because of the shooters body position, angle, whatever I as the RO

couldn't call it. If the shooter broke the 180 and the RO saw it, DQ. No compromise

on safety. New shooter/junior? Do it gently, explain WHY, and hope they learn the lesson

and keep coming back.

[Singlestack]

Too late now. Don't matter

[Stage 3]

DQ for both,

[EZ Bagger]

DQ for the steel.

DQ for the 180 only if the "many" who felt the 180 was broken included the RO.

[kimel]

Both are DQ's.

The stage designer and/or setup crew and/or match RM may also have missed:

2.1.3 Minimum Distances – Whenever metal targets are used in a

course of fire, precautions must be taken so that competitors and

match officials maintain a minimum distance of 7 meters (22.96

feet) from them while they are being shot. Where possible, this

should be done with physical barriers. If Charge Lines are used

to limit the approach to metal targets, they must be placed at least

8 meters (26.25 feet) from the targets so that the competitor may

inadvertently fault the line and still be outside the 7 meter (22.96

feet) minimum distance.

Without seeing the stage it is impossible to say whether or not there is a stage design/construction issue.

[JThompson]

Both are DQ's.

The stage designer and/or setup crew and/or match RM may also have missed:

2.1.3 Minimum Distances – Whenever metal targets are used in a

course of fire, precautions must be taken so that competitors and

match officials maintain a minimum distance of 7 meters (22.96

feet) from them while they are being shot. Where possible, this

should be done with physical barriers. If Charge Lines are used

to limit the approach to metal targets, they must be placed at least

8 meters (26.25 feet) from the targets so that the competitor may

inadvertently fault the line and still be outside the 7 meter (22.96

feet) minimum distance.

Without seeing the stage it is impossible to say whether or not there is a stage design/construction issue.

Kimel has a point, but the bottom line is, even if stage design sucks... it's up to the shooter to keep his/her distance from a steel target.

[pjb45]

DQ on the first - Steel

The second one is harder because it is the RO's responsibility. The RO can make the call and issue the warning, DQ, or nothing. Sounds to me like the RO made a decision.

However, a local club operating under the umbrella of a larger club can change the dynamics. The larger club's rules can take precedence over the uspsa club in the safety issue. Anybody that sees a muzzle breaking the 90 degree can call it and it is a DQ.

[mike4045]

I gave out several warnings for other issues that were close for DQ's. I finally Dq'ed one for sweeping his hand while opening a door. I had already called him for finger/trigger a couple of times in previous stages. Lots of sloppy gun handling last weekend. Hate to Dq anyone, the other shooters seemed to watch gun handling after that.

Mike

[Nik Habicht]

Shooting the steel is a DQ.

Please cite the rule --- I've had this conversation with a RMI. RMI's position is that there should be a physical barrier preventing the shooter from shooting steel too closely.....

I'm really leaning toward 10.4.7 trumping 2.1.3

[JThompson]

Shooting the steel is a DQ.

Please cite the rule --- I've had this conversation with a RMI. RMI's position is that there should be a physical barrier preventing the shooter from shooting steel too closely.....

I'm really leaning toward 10.4.7 trumping 2.1.3

Nik,

I hear what you are saying and course design should prevent this, but in some cases there might be a way to get close to steel and the walk though should tell them they can only shoot from X area. The bottom line is that they discharged the firearm in an unsafe way by engaging the steel that close. Even if it was bad design the last line always lies with the shooter. It's "unsafe gun handling" to shoot steel that close. I see it like an RO checking for clear... the RO looked, but if there is a round in the chamber and it goes bang, on hammer down, it's a DQ. The course design or walk through "should" minimize unsafe actions, but the shooter is always responsible for where the round goes, no matter the circumstances.

[Jim Norman]

I gave out several warnings for other issues that were close for DQ's. I finally Dq'ed one for sweeping his hand while opening a door. I had already called him for finger/trigger a couple of times in previous stages. Lots of sloppy gun handling last weekend. Hate to Dq anyone, the other shooters seemed to watch gun handling after that.

Mike

Mike,

First, remember, all you do is inform the shooter that he DQ'd, he does it to himself. Second and as, if not more important, we all hate telling someone that they are DQ'd, but I would hate it more to tell someone that Daddy is in the Hospital (or worse) for a preventable accident.

Recently in our area, a LEO shot himself in the leg or foot while holstering during a qualification course. Evidently he had his finger on the trigger and when said finger hit the holster, the finger stopped but the gun and trigger kept moving forward and the gun went off. Finger during a reload, Pointing the gun in "odd" directions while reloading, Sweeps during opeing doors or ports are to me more scary than a 185. Now a 270, that is REAL scary. Shooter shoots at targets on right side of COF and turns the wrong way to shoot the left targets. BTW, NOT a new shooter, they would not have had the room. This experianced shooter moves quickly and was given "space" to back up and turn. Happily it was not any more than a skivvy change and a DQ. Moral of the story: Every shooter is a potential safety infraction. all it takes is a thousandth of a second to be in the wrong place. Watch everyone and call every infraction. Reshoots suck, but they are easily recovered from. An AD can be permanent.

Just my rambling thoughts

Jim

[boo radley]

I think this thread fits closely with the one Flexmoney closed in the 'Hate' forum, re: "it's only a Local match."

Some rules violations are going to occur, especially -- and maybe almost exclusively? -- at club level matches, and that is a shame, but a fact.

On the *internet*, however, all is righteous. Equipment violators are always moved to Open. Steel is properly calibrated. Reshoots are never given improperly, and no one puts up with 'coaching' even the newest of shooters....

I'm more teasing than sarcastic. I've seen very, very few safety violations tolerated, but think we've all seen a 180 slightly broken, and forgiven, or an AD that wasn't too closely examined, etc. For shame, no doubt.

Z's case, yeah -- 2 DQ's, but Singlestack's comment is probably most accurate. "Too late, now."

[boz1911]

Safety is safety, DQ on both counts. I do forewarn new shooters of the DQ offenses and the results during the safety briefing. I also tell them that a DQ stings like a bee but is for the safety of all and not meant as a personal attack. Finally I tell them I know this from personal bee stings that I have endured.

[Jim Rusert]

DQ & DQ.

[Flexmoney]

However, a local club operating under the umbrella of a larger club can change the dynamics. The larger club's rules can take precedence over the uspsa club in the safety issue. Anybody that sees a muzzle breaking the 90 degree can call it and it is a DQ.

That just isn't true. If a club is operating a match under the USPSA name, then they have agreed to use the USPSA rules. To do otherwise requires a specific exemption from the Regional Director (the President of USPSA).

Clubs don't get to pick and choose which rules from USPSA they will use and which ones they will substitute in as their own. Either it is an USPSA match under the rule book...or it is something else that is mooching off the USPSA name.

[open17]

However, a local club operating under the umbrella of a larger club can change the dynamics. The larger club's rules can take precedence over the uspsa club in the safety issue. Anybody that sees a muzzle breaking the 90 degree can call it and it is a DQ.

That just isn't true. If a club is operating a match under the USPSA name, then they have agreed to use the USPSA rules. To do otherwise requires a specific exemption from the Regional Director (the President of USPSA).

Clubs don't get to pick and choose which rules from USPSA they will use and which ones they will substitute in as their own. Either it is an USPSA match under the rule book...or it is something else that is mooching off the USPSA name.

3.3.1 " Host organizations may not enforce local rules except to comply with legislation or legal

precedent in the applicable jurisdiction. " No permission required from the region mentioned.

"Any voluntary adopted rules" are not allowed without permission of the Regional Directorate

AND the IPSC Executive Council!!!!!

I've always thought that what the rule meant was you can't have local rules just because

you want them, but if there is a local law, or in the above case a rule at the governing club,

you can comply with it as required?

Bill

[ima45dv8]

I wouldn't think a rule made by the home club would qualify as "legislation" or "legal precedent in the applicable jurisdiction".

[TreblePlink]

Club policies don't trump the rulebook.

"Local law or legal precedent." This means "black letter" law as written into the statutes or "case" law. Lawmakers write statutes and courts set precedents which are recognized as case law. Club rules and policies are not laws.

The whole point is to standardize rules at every USPSA club.

Now, just because the USPSA MINIMUM steel engagement distance is 7 yards, doesn't mean you can't design stages with 10 yard minimums to increase safety. At CRO school "best practice" was said to be 10 yards.

If the stage had an easy way to engage steel closer than 8 yards - it's a trap and the stage should have been thrown out.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

3.3.1 " Host organizations may not enforce local rules except to comply with legislation or legal

precedent in the applicable jurisdiction. " No permission required from the region mentioned.

I've always thought that what the rule meant was you can't have local rules just because

you want them, but if there is a local law, or in the above case a rule at the governing club,

you can comply with it as required?

Bill

[Carmoney]

This weekend at a local USPSA match, a safe and competent 12-year-old junior shooter (not my kid, by the way) pulled his gun out of his holster when the RO began to give the LAMR command. BUT, there was a problem--instead of saying "Load and make ready," the RO instead said, "Do you know and understand the course of fire?" By the time it registered on anybody, the gun was out of the holster and pointed downrange.

The RO pointed out the issue to the kid, and explained that technically that was a DQable offense, and the kid nodded his acknowledgement. Then the RO gave the LAMR command and the kid shot the stage and finished the match.

Now, I understand we're not supposed to relax the rules at local matches, the safety rules are absolute, DQs help people learn, and all the rest of that jazz. But despite the attitudes of the absolutists on this forum that seem to just relish the idea of issuing DQs at every available opportunity, I'm going to go out on a limb here and say this kid did not need to be DQ'd. There was no actual safety violation. No real danger to anyone. The young shooter learned that he needs to listen closely to the range commands and not assume the RO is going to use the correct litany--but he learned it in a way that didn't cause him a disproportionate amount of humiliation and disappointment.

Sometimes a little dose of common sense is what we all need to get through the day, y'know?

[ima45dv8]

I've done the same thing, and afterwards blamed myself for not following the range commands. That's why now, if I know the shooter and they are not real new to this sport, the first words out of my mouth are "Load and Make Ready". For people who are still very new I might ask if they understand the CoF or ask if they're having fun (if they seem nervous), but I try to stay close enough to prevent a premature draw. A gentle hand on their shoulder seems to work well.