Limited 10 Future?

[JFD]

I classified in Limited with my SS Kimber, then switched to the Para.

[ima45dv8]

My initial classification Limited was with a singlestack. But that was before there was a Lim10 division. As soon as Lim10 was available I shot that exclusively for several years.

Not because of these discussions, I grabbed my singlestack and shot Lim10 at Sunday's match just for the heck of it (OK, I was short on .40s and didn't want to fire up the press). It's still a blast. I hope it doesn't go away.

[LPatterson]

A couple of people I respected have talked about seeing the handwritting on the wall, so they jumped ship while they could get a return on their gun investments. So is this is all about competition dilution or getting your money back. The easiest way for a bully to win is to not fight back, you may still lose and be bloody but I am going down swinging.

[uscbigdawg]

...I grabbed my singlestack and shot Lim10 at Sunday's match just for the heck of it (OK, I was short on .40s and didn't want to fire up the press). It's still a blast. I hope it doesn't go away.

That's funny 'cause that's how I got my first Open and L-10 classifications. Didn't have the gun (in the case of Open) and got tired of looking at a "U" in L-10.

Rich

[Alan Meek]

TriggerT,

While initially the SS participation is low, if you go back and look at the L-10 numbers when L-10 was added as a division the L-10 numbers were not initially that great. We still need to wait until the completition of the third year to evaluate the particiapation numbers.

Also L-10 was never a provisional division and I think not processing the classifiers for the provisional SS division is holding back potential participation.

Alan

[TriggerT]

TriggerT,

While initially the SS participation is low, if you go back and look at the L-10 numbers when L-10 was added as a division the L-10 numbers were not initially that great. We still need to wait until the completition of the third year to evaluate the particiapation numbers.

Also L-10 was never a provisional division and I think not processing the classifiers for the provisional SS division is holding back potential participation.

Alan

I agree that time (the 3 year period provided for) will tell. I just hate the fact that there is all this talk of doing away with L-10 before that 3 years has gone by. I also think that with some MINOR changes to the rules of the S.S. division, of which I think w are all well aware, the S.S. division could do even better, once the time comes that those changes can be made.

[indyshooter]

A couple of people I respected have talked about seeing the handwritting on the wall, so they jumped ship while they could get a return on their gun investments. So is this is all about competition dilution or getting your money back. The easiest way for a bully to win is to not fight back, you may still lose and be bloody but I am going down swinging.

i just started a couple years ago and did't shoot to win anything. this was an exciting new way to improve my skills. i also enjoy the people at the matches. i had a 1911 and it has evolved from the beginning but i like L-10. it's not quite a "carry" weapon class, which makes it more fun, but it's not far from it which improves my skills in case it's not a match i'm shooting. i hope it stays, i'm glad to hear others agree. like i said, if it goes, i'll shoot limited with the L-10 gun, i won't sell it because i didn't buy it just to compete. thanks to everyone that responded. how can i make my feelings about this class known to the voting body?

[MTrout40]

And it WORKS!

Thank you!

Lets leave it alone!

Here's a question, How many people here got their initial classification in LIMITED with a Single Stack??

Jim

I did. Open as well.

[XD Niner]

And it WORKS!

Thank you!

Lets leave it alone!

Here's a question, How many people here got their initial classification in LIMITED with a Single Stack??

Jim

I used my Springer Black Stainless with ten round magazines to get my Limited classification as well. We had a classifier match a while back and I shot my single stack in Limited as a change of pace. I was at a disadvantage on two or three of the stages as I remember since I had to make one or two extra reloads. On the other two or three, there were mandatory reloads so the ten-round capaicty was a non-issue.

[Hank Ellis]

I have shot L-10 for the last three seasons. Since I've started in this game. I've also just switched to Production. My take on the situation.

A manageable number of divisions is five. We've got our 'race' divisions in Open and Limited. They work and are mature, even if the shooters sometimes aren't. Don't mess with it. We've got Revolver and due to the nature of the wheelgun should remain as it is. What we should have left is two 'stock' divisions. Production with a tweak here and there and it's good to go.

So what's left? What to do with the single stacks? We have L-10 that is where many first time shooters come to play. What do they come with? A 1911 with eight round mags or a Glock with a few mags of various capacity. The Glocks are sent to Production and all is good. The 1911 guy sees the 10 round mags and quickly realize that there will have to be some investment before the next match or say screw it and don't bother coming back. SSD would really be a better bet for the first time shooter. But SSD is new and the classifiers 'don't count' for a while. Yeah, yeah, I know they are on file and all that but as of right now you can't shoot a classification in July and see the posting in August. Not a good thing for the new shooter. Those that come play and stay with a 1911 in L-10 tend to move to another division eventually. Seen many at the local level move on. Most move to Limited. I chose Production.

All other things being equal, my beloved L-10 should go away and SSD should be the new path.

But all things are not equal. As we all know certain states have a mag capacity limitation. What to do with these shooters? I don't have a solid idea as to how we get around this. If we dump L-10 for SSD then these shooters have lost 'their' division. Single stacks will have a place. Production isn't affected. The double stack SA hi cap shooters are now in a real bind with no place for them to go and be competitive.

Further diluting the available shooters with another division is counter-productive. I've got a piece of wood on the mantle from the '05 Area 4. It says 3rd C Limited-10. Guys, there were only 3 in C class in L-10 and I placed dead last in L-10 out of 14 shooters. I felt like some Special Olympics kid where everyone takes home an award. Something is wrong with that. Not enough GMs showed to make the match count as a classifier either so I shot for bragging rights and the experience. Adding SSD will siphon off some of the L-10 shooters and make an already small division even smaller. For comparison there were 93 Limited shooters and 7 Revolver shooters. It's not too much of a push to see Revolver having more competitors than L-10 at some matches if SSD is allowed as a division also.

So...

L-10 should go away and be replaced with SSD as it will give the single stack a good place to play and a comfortable way for the new shooter to run and gun.

But...

If L-10 goes away then shooters in capacity restricted states will be in a real bind and we end up ticking off our existing customer base.

And...

Keeping L-10 and adding SSD will dilute L-10. Many 1911 shooters will migrate to SSD making an already small division even smaller. It will also add another burden to matches with another prize table. Another set of awards. Another set of everything.

Or...

Don't incorporate SSD and keep the status quo. But the interest in SSD is there and we've lost a good place for new, cross-over, and old-school single stack shooters. I want to see how this experiment turns out.

So the dilemma goes.

We can burn up keyboard time and bandwidth till the Internet chokes but the dilemma is still the same. What decision is made is going to tick of some people. Which group of people it ticks off is the question. The decision that is going to be made will be tough. I think the market will determine what will happen in the long run. Give SSD the next year and a half and lets revisit this subject.

[Coach]

Successfully classifying in Limited with a Limited 10 gun is fairly easy to do. Because of mandatory reloads and round count on most classifiers. A shooter with a "B" level of skill is probably going to be a "B" classification in both Limited and Limited 10.

Being competitive in a match with ten rounds capacity will be another thing entirely.

[Singlestack Wonder]

With the recent flip in the US House and Senate coupled with a Presidential election in two years, USPSA may want to reconsider the need to keep Limited 10 in place. Should the worse happen and Hilliary is elected, Open 10 (or even Open 6) could become a reality.

[Jim Norman]

I've got a piece of wood on the mantle from the '05 Area 4. It says 3rd C Limited-10. Guys, there were only 3 in C class in L-10 and I placed dead last in L-10 out of 14 shooters.

There is someting wrong here. Pay a class winner, 3 in class, pay second, 8 in class, pay third, 15 in class. So if ther were only 14 in L-10 there was at least one too many awards given. You can't be dead last in a class and get third place.

The dilution of competition is largely an illusion. If the division I have in vested in goes away, I, personally will still shoot and probably in a higher cost division, but many people will simply go elsewhere. In other words there is likely to be less competitors in total if you take away the divisions that people are currently shooting in.

Telling a shooter in L-10 that lives in California that he must now shoot Limited with ten round mags is not conducive to member retention. Remember, if you were already there, you can have the standard cap mags, it is the new shooter that has to paly with 10 rounders. His STI won;t be allowed in SS and without standard caps he can't compete in Limited. Where do you suggest he go? He has a $2500 plus investment in L-10. Would all of you that are agitating for removing L-10 willing to put up the money to buy the guns of those that are left hanging?

Jim

[Stony Lane]

Why do we want to exclude shooters? I live in a "free" state, but choose to shoot Limited 10 at times. My .40 Beretta Steel I (for example) is single action and it's double-stack capacity is only 12. Limited 10 is obviously the place to go. Numerous other shooters locally also shoot Limited 10 for various other reasons. I've only been in USPSA a couple years (and I shot production all of 2006), but I can't understand the push to limit participation.

[Jim Norman]

Lets see, What will I shoot this week?

Open, I have a couple lying around.

Limited, I can shoot either of my Paras and I could shoot everything listed in L-10, but at a great disadvantage.

Liimited-10 I can shoot: My Sig, XD, G-17 (minor) G-22 (major or minor) any of my Single Stacks and even my revolvers. And all at no disadvantage excepting the revolvers ( I don't load like Jerry, but then who does?)

Production, I can shoot my Glocks, Sig, XD, Revos

Revo, Duh, of course I can shoot only my Revo.

Single Stack, Now this is a question, I think I have one SS that has not been altered so as to not work in the SS rules, maybe, of course that would be one that Dad had for about 50 years. Still has the old snag-free military sights. Not sure I'd be competative and that gun will not be altered. I could shoot it for fun in almost any division, but to win in SS, I need to buy another gun. Great, lets set up a division that allows essentially one pattern of gun and restrict it so that many of us who may already own one still won't be able to play since our guns don't fit the criteria. (Anyone think that there is a SS manufacturer out there that is pushing for this? Nah, that would be too conspiratorial even for me)

Why did I go through this?

Because as you can see, the single division that fits the most possible guns is:

May we have a drum roll please!

Limited-10

Yes, that's right, the division that allows more guns to be competative than any other division is the one under the most fire from people that for the most part don't seem to shoot it!

Thank you

Jim Norman

Your voice of reason

[Trail3]

I also agree with keeping L-10 due to the change in congress.

and what about the California shooters and other states that have limited mag laws?

If our sport wants to attract new shooters keep L-10

More states will be passing state AWB laws with magazine restrictions, (like CA did)

Here comes Open 10.

[SteveZ]

The "success" requirement for PSSD reads:

"Evaluation criteria will be set at 10-12 percent of the total scores entered from matches

offering the provisional division."

From club and area matches that I've attended, PSSD isn't even coming close to 10% participation....so why even consider dropping L10 and replacing it with PSSD? If L10 (single stack shooters) wanted to go play in PSSD, they would have already done so...but they haven't.

Its pretty clear that the experiment isn't working out as well as it was hoped. This makes about as much sense as a car company dropping one of its most popular models and forcing customers to "choose" something that hasn't been selling well.

[Carmoney]

Hank, that's an excellent post. Thanks.

[EricBudd]

Hank,

I like your post but disagree with you that SSD should stay and that L10 should go. Any gun that works for SSD can shoot L10, but not every gun that shoots L10 can shoot SSD. I also think the argument that a new shooter with a 1911 won't comb back because he might need to buy a few 10 round magazines is incorrect. If $125 in magazines (5 10 rounders) is a deal breaker than the sport just isn't for you. Most of us spend more than that to shoot an Area match (entry fee, ammo, gas, food).

I have noticed that most new shooters at our club shoot production or limited 10 because they are the two 'non-race' divisions that a majority of guns fit into. We have only had a handful of shooters ever shoot SSD at our matches. The guys with 1911 patten guns tend to shoot L10.

Eric

[38superman]

I first came to IPSC with my carry gun which was a S&W 645 (DA single stack with 8 round mags).

Didn't take long to develop capacity envy.

At that point open and limited guns were uncharted territory.

I didn't know anything about them, so I went out and bought a 1911 in 45 and a hand full of 10 round mags.

This gun with a speed holster was what I ran with in L10 for the first year.

Once I had been around long enough to get a handle on what limited was all about (more capacity envy) I bought one and moved to limited.

I now split my time between the two divisions but shoot L10 with a 45 wide body STI.

I like L10 and hope it stays. I invested a lot of money building my L10 rig.

I though about shooting in SSD but I just can't get excited about running the abundance of 30+ round field courses with 8 round mags.

It is especially unappealing with the restrictions on magazine placement.

To carry enough ammo I would have magazines wrapped around my waist all the way to the middle of my back.

I am not a contortionist.

The other thing that keeps me from it is that there's only so much time and money available for IPSC.

I feel if I spread myself too thin across too many divisions my advancement will be diluted and slow to a crawl.

My single stack will be relegated to the occasional Single Stack only match.

That having been said, I hope we keep the division for the sake of those that do want to shoot it.

Tls

[tightloop]

I first came to IPSC with my carry gun which was a S&W 645 (DA single stack with 8 round mags).

Didn't take long to develop capacity envy.

At that point open and limited guns were uncharted territory.

I didn't know anything about them, so I went out and bought a 1911 in 45 and a hand full of 10 round mags.

This gun with a speed holster was what I ran with in L10 for the first year.

Once I had been around long enough to get a handle on what limited was all about (more capacity envy) I bought one and moved to limited.

I now split my time between the two divisions but shoot L10 with a 45 wide body STI.

I like L10 and hope it stays. I invested a lot of money building my L10 rig.

I though about shooting in SSD but I just can't get excited about running the abundance of 30+ round field courses with 8 round mags.

It is especially unappealing with the restrictions on magazine placement.

To carry enough ammo I would have magazines wrapped around my waist all the way to the middle of my back.

I am not a contortionist.

The other thing that keeps me from it is that there's only so much time and money available for IPSC.

I feel if I spread myself too thin across too many divisions my advancement will be diluted and slow to a crawl.

My single stack will be relegated to the occasional Single Stack only match.

That having been said, I hope we keep the division for the sake of those that do want to shoot it.

Tls

You hit the nail on the head...they have let the magazine issue get out of hand...and subsequently the courses and number of targets followed...limit the open guns to 140mm and it changes lots of things, and makes the Limited shooters closer to winning a stage from the Open guys...

[D.Hayden]

Seems prize dillution and awards are brought up quite often.. just get rid of them... would it matter then

Everybody shoots whatever they want... who would care?

[JFD]

CMC 10 round mags can be easily found for under $20. There's no reason at all to "have" to buy more than 2 at most (been there - done that).

All you have to do is look at the local and major match results in Area 6 to see L-10 is a very popular division. The match results speak for themselves. The next election can't come soon enough....if I can somehow get my work hours down to less than 70 a week I'll be happy to make sure someone doesn't run unopposed.

It does seem that folks who don't shoot L-10 really believe someone with a doublestack has an unfair advantage over those of us with SS guns. This really wouldn't matter if folks would investigate a little. I guess that's way too much trouble I've never seen a single L-10 shooter here say they feel outgunned by double stack guns. I know I didn't when I won the state L-10 title in 2004 with my SS Kimber.

The divisions we have now are fine and we don't need more or less. The last thing we need is a highly restrictive divison designed for a single type of gun. Yeah, 8 round mags in a sport with 9 round arrays is really going to attract people I guess new shooters like to be punished when they shoot, because a miss will screw up their entire plan.

At least half of our new shooters start out in L-10 because damn near any gun can be used competitively, and IDPAers don't have to deal with the restrictive equipment rules. Production division should make it crystal clear that USPSA shooters LIKE MODIFYING THEIR GUNS. Yet the plan is to kill L-10 for a highly restrictive division.

I'll bet that the 1911 division has no worries about becoming a "real" division. With the BS thinking (or lack of) going on in USPSA, they'll use the data from a 12 year old match that doesn't represent crap (other than the popularity of a single match) to skew the numbers to suit whatever they want. That L-10 has double or triple the numbers will just be ignored by those who want change just for the sake of change.

I thank those ADs who supported and continue to support L-10.

I also agree that any changes to any divisions should be voted on by the members.

[Rocket35]

There has been so much feedback on here lately and I think it has done some good! I hope that the BoD with take this information and make the correct decision: to KEEP L-10. I believe I read in another post that they have decided to enter L-10 in the new 2008 rule book draft. Am I correct?

[GENE S]

Jim,

What catagory/Division can I shoot my SS 38 sup open gun ??