Idpa Raising The Power Floor

[Cjblackmon]

Austin Crowe wrote in the new IDPA Tactical Journal, that IDPA needs to raise the Power Floor. He wrote in the article that "people that reload down to the Power Floor rather than shooting store bought ammo gives them an advantage over people that don't reload (himself included, he states that fact in his article too).

His words are "I think IDPA should take that advantage away, up the Power Floors to "CATER" to the those, like himself that don't reload their own ammo, to keep the "DEFENSIVE MENTALITY" and if we would all be shooting full-house loads to stay truer to the stated goal of being Defensive Pistol"

His closing statement is : "So, I beg of all you shooters out there. Don't reload your ammo to the floor; use full power ammo to shoot IDPA. I think we should all strive to shoot about 15,000-20,000 over the power floor".

What are your ideas on this?

Would you still shoot IDPA if they ever did raise the Power Floor to factory rounds??

Edited February 18, 2006 by Cjblackmon

[PJONES5]

Austin Crowe wrote in the new IDPA Tactical Journal, that IDPA needs to raise the Power Floor. He wrote in the article that "people that reload down to the Power Floor rather than shooting store bought ammo gives them an advantage over people that don't reload (himself included, he states that fact in his article too).

His words are "I think IDPA should take that advantage away, up the Power Floors to "CATER" to the those, like himself that don't reload their own ammo, to keep the "DEFENSIVE MENTALITY" and if we would all be shooting full-house loads to stay truer to the stated goal of being Defensive Pistol"

His closing statement is : "So, I beg of all you shooters out there. Don't reload your ammo to the floor; use full power ammo to shoot IDPA. I think we should all strive to shoot about 15,000-20,000 over the power floor".

What are your ideas on this?

Would you still shoot IDPA if they ever did raise the Power Floor to factory rounds??

HE NEEDS TO STOP DRINKING THE KOOL-AID,I sure don't want to get shot with one of my 200 gr LSWC at 830 FPS.

IDPA is a game it is not Tactical Training.

Guys need to quick trying to change IDPA its a pretty good game as it stands.

pat

[Crusher]

I guess Mr. Crowe has got chewed up by a few to many "sharks" in the IDPA pond.

"So, I beg of all you shooters out there. Don't reload your ammo to the floor; use full power ammo to shoot IDPA. I think we should all strive to shoot about 15,000-20,000 over the power floor".

So his excuse for getting WHOPPED is PF?

Wow anyone ever hear that excuse before?

[Clay1]

The power floor is there as a floor not as what a defensive round should be. It was designated at 125 so that a 9mm Luger would make it. The 9mm is chambered in many guns of modern design, but it is also chambered in some older guns too. A power factor of 125 allows the use of the older guns as well as the modern weapons.

Ask the boys and girls that are playing in ESR if they think they should raise their current 165 PF?

This is a target game and we have set limits. If you want real world, there are probably more mouse guns in 380 auto in use for concealed carry than full sized 45 autos that actually get carried everyday yet these are not allowed to play the game.

Someone always wants to change the rules to their benefit. We already have rules, lets get to the shooting.

I also believe that people by nature always want to point to the next guy and say the reason that he beat me is that he is using those gamer loads or some other excuse. The truth is that the guy that wins would still his @ss with hotter loads. It's again about the indian and not the arrow. You want to become a better shooter, shooting a reduced power round isn't going to take you from Marksman to Expert or Master. You actually have to point your weapon in the right direction and apply technique.

Personally think that it is a whinner's excuse. If you really think that it makes a big difference buy ammo from someone like Lancer who market reloaded ammo to the competitor. If you were loosing before you are still going to be loosing with it. If you were winning with the reduced loads you are going to be winning with hotter stuff too.

Rick

Crusher, we are on the same page. You just said it more succinctly than I did. I was responding while you posted.

[Flexmoney]

A quick reminder of the forum rules seems in order...

The topic is open for discussion, but comments and name calling about the author are not.

Play nice.

[Precision40]

I can see the point he's trying to make, but here is my problem with it (with all due respect).

If you plan on being competitive within a division, why would you purposely shoot ammo that's 20,000 over the minimum and then say the guys who load to 130pf have the advantage? Absolutely we have the advantage, the rules state the minimum power factor is X and that's what 95% of us reload to.

IDPA isn't about what the other guys are shooting, it's about what YOUR shooting. If to you, IDPA is about training and "Real-Life" scenario based training, than that's awesome. It shouldn't matter what the other guy is shooting. You can either be competitive or real-life in IDPA, I have seen VERY few who are both.

To ME, IDPA is a game with a minimum power factor.

[srf]

Okay,

While we're at it, let's raise the power factor to 165 for Esp... Oops: Then it would be CDP

[the duck of death]

I do know that it's easier on the pistol to shoot 165 rather than 175. I'm more worried about steel w/115 9mm. And I am shooting FACTORY WWB ammo. Instead of endlessly figuring how to change the rules why not shoot what we have now.

I for one don't want a bomb dropped in IDPA like we just had in USPSA/PRODUCTION.

[Clay1]

Duck said: "I for one don't want a bomb dropped in IDPA like we just had in USPSA/PRODUCTION"

The bomb in IDPA already exploded. It was called no light in the belt channel plus splitting the smallest division (revolver) into two seperate divisions.

[Joe D]

Some folks confuse IDPA with training. IDPA is just a game, nothing more.

[Ted Murphy]

I disagree with the author.

My reasoning for keeping the pf at 125 is to make sure the bargain basement 9mm loads that so many new and active shooters depend on stays legal.

A pf of 135+ will find WWB and others no longer legal.

IDPA is supposed to be an affordable sport, I would not approve of any notion to make it more costly, which would be a side effect of raising the pf.

I also was displeased he used manufacturer's published velocities instead of chrono results. It is likely that some if not most of the data published was gathered using barrels longer than those used in IDPA guns. This would make data he used is not very relevant.

I think the gamers and the tacticians squabbling is IDPA's version of Ying and Yang.

[XRe]

Didn't TGO win some USPSA stuff shooting factory 230gr hardball not too long ago??? Testing my memory here, but... We're talking 190PF??? Against 168PF stuff??? Yet again proving it's the Indian, not the arrow...

[jkelly]

While I personally wouldn’t suggest requiring full power loads, doing so would bring IDPA in line with both its Purpose and Principles.

Purpose

IDPA is a shooting sport that uses practical equipment including FULL CHARGE service ammunition to solve simulated “real world” self-defense scenarios.

Principles

II. Provide a level playing field for all competitors to test the skill and ability of each individual, not the equipment or GAMESMANSHIP.

Why is IDPA ignoring its Purpose?

Respectfully,

jkelly

[diehli]

Note that I don't shoot IDPA and probably won't ever. That being said:

I read it as referring to CDP. Given that CDP is a .45-only division, I don't think that that's out of the realm of reason. The thing is, though, not all factory ammo is that high above 165.

On Winchester's site, of the four .45 "target/range" loads they list, two have a PF above 190, one around 178, and the final at 168.

PMC's loads factor as follows: 230-grn: 190 PF; 185-grn: 166.5 PF; 200-grn: 170 PF.

Federal's American Eagle: regular: 204.7 PF; indoor: 195.5 PF.

So, clearly there's a wide spread in factory ammunition. What should be suggested to the writer of the article is that he do a bit of research and find a factory load that gets him closer to the power factor floor. And, yes, I also regard the article as more noise from those who "can't".

[revchuck]

I'm traditionally one of the last to receive the TJ, so I haven't read the article.

While I'm in favor of adopting Major/Minor scoring, and requiring .40 S&W and larger to meet the 165 PF, I'm not sure that raising the PF higher would have a meaningful effect. Many (most?) of us reload solely for reasons of economy. I mostly shoot .38 Special in SSR, and appropriate factory ammo must be mail-ordered for that caliber unless the shooter lives in a big city. The same is true of less common revolver calibers, and gets pricey in a big hurry.

I think the gamers and the tacticians squabbling is IDPA's version of Ying and Yang.

I was thinking more along the lines of Cheech and Chong.

[JD45]

+1

After I read the article I still didn't understand.

Hell, it's not even easy to make minor in .38Spl. with factory loads. Cheap 9mm ammo isn't exactly hot; just a little above minor.

I think the article would have more understandable if it would have singled out CDP division, or using .40 as minor. Still, I don't see any issues that warrant power factor increases.

[andrewcolglazier]

I have an idea! IDPA should provide every shooter at a sanctioned match with identical ammo meeting "full power" specs.

They could include the cost of the ammo in the match fee.

Andy C.

[Flexmoney]

I have always had a chuckle at the fact that the "principles and purpose" talk about full power defensive loads, yet most of the divisions use 125pf. (I like to call 125pf loads in USPSA and IDPA "mousefarts".)

But, it would make more sense to cut off a testicle than it would to make the rules such that WWB 9mm would be outlawed. The P&P go out the window real quick if nobody shows up to play.

And, what would raising the pf in CDP accomplish? Most of the same shooters would win, most of the time. But, you'd beat your guns up sooner. Competition shooters are know to put a few more rounds through their gun than average.

[Ferrell Spicer]

II. Provide a level playing field for all competitors to test the skill and ability of each individual, not the equipment or GAMESMANSHIP.

Why do we need the playing field if we can't play a game.

[Anthony Lombardo]

And, what would raising the pf in CDP accomplish? Most of the same shooters would win, most of the time. But, you'd beat your guns up sooner. Competition shooters are know to put a few more rounds through their gun than average.

I recall a local IDPA match after smoking a stage when a competitor remarked "I could shoot it that fast too if I was shooting those wimpy powder puff loads! Your gun just doesn't move when you shoot".

I just grinned and offered him a box of the "anemic" S&B .45 ball I was shooting!

He didn't smile! I don't recall him ever coming back!

Many novice competitors (and some not so novice) assume that if you can shoot fast AND accurately that your loads must somehow be anemic. I shot factory hardball for about 5 years in IDPA and handily made Master after 18months.

(AND I NEVER HAD ANY AMMO RELATED MALFUNCTIONS!)

Edited February 19, 2006 by Anthony Lombardo

[Mayonaise]

I recall shooting the AL state match in '02 with David Sevigny and Chris Edwards. Dave won SSP MA shooting a Glock 37 (.45 GAP) using full power defense ammo (194PF).

If the article writer wants to lower his times it's better to work on compressing the time it takes you do do the things that have to be done when you're not actually pressing the trigger that make the biggest difference. But he's entitled to his opinion.

If his comments bother people perhaps they should write a rebuttal article to the TJ. They are always looking for material.

Edited February 19, 2006 by Mayonaise

[lndshrk]

IDPA RULEBOOK: Chronograph three (3) rounds at a distance of ten (10) feet using a gun of MAXIMUM barrel length for the DIVISION of the same gun type.

I have never been chrono'd at a state or regional level IDPA Match, but have been busted down to minor at a Regional USPSA match by accepting the published specs on factory ammo did not make major out my my 4" .45.

How many guns will be tried of a MAXIMUM barrel length before someone actually has to (find out or) admit to shooting soft loads at a major IDPA match?

Edited February 19, 2006 by lndshrk

[Ted Murphy]

I chronoed ammo at our 2004 state match. Couldn't get someone to run the chrono in '05.

I had 2 people not make the power factor in our test gun, but who did make it when tested in a longer barreled gun. 1 guy would have nad no problem making the PF but he had real inconsistent ammo that had 1 in 3 bunny fart loads.

I like the pf of CDP at 165. I think the guns will stay happy longer. Wal mart Remington 230 grain ball is 187pf out of my 625 FWIW.

The only argument for raising CDP's power floor that has some merit (even though I still like it at 165) is that raising the PF would lessen the advantage reloaders have over people buying factory ammo. But that is nit that probably does not need picking.

I would not mind them lowering SSR's PF to 115, that way people can buy cheaper jacketed .38 special white box ammo. (American Eagle is 115 pf out of a 4", WWB is 105) But I do not see that happening.

Ted

[rubberneck]

If the guy doesn't want to reload than all he has to do is buy ammo from Atlanta Arms. They make a 230 grain load that makes 171pf out of my 5 inch 1911 and at $16 per 100 it is cheaper than WWB.

Seems to me that this guy is just lazy. I don't reload, for a number of reasons, but have never felt that I am at an unfair advantage.

[lndshrk]

Take back what I said about never beening chrono'd in an IDPA state match . . . as I shot the PA State match in 2004 where Ted did indeed chrono the rounds . . . I stand corrected. Thanks!