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Idpa Raising The Power Floor


Cjblackmon

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Softest factory stuff I ever found was still 155pf+ and would make the 165 out of about half the 5" guns tried.

Cor-Bon manufactures a ".40 Match" round about a 138-140 PF out of a 5" Eagle. It's loaded short (1.126) for those other "Plastic" guns. It's more expensive than "home brew" in .40 at the same PF.

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Why do shooters of the most popular LEO and CCW cartridge (.40 S&W) HAVE to buy reloading equipment in order to shoot the "accessible, entry level, truly tactical" competition?

This should be obvious to even the most casual observer: cost. Have you priced self-defense ammo lately? About a dollar a round. Let's check the math, and consider that an average IDPA championship match would run me about $180 for AMMO alone. For that much money, I can load 2000 rounds of .40.

Next question.

jr

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From the 1911 Society rules for the Single Stack Classic:

165,000 Major

Major power factor must be .40 cal or above. Major power factor was arrived at by using a Colt Officers Model, firing factory hardball ammo.

I don't have a dog in this fight, but full power factory ammo and 165 PF are both accomodated by the rules. :)

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If the guy doesn't want to reload than all he has to do is buy ammo from Atlanta Arms.

Today I witnessed a 9mm 1911 using Atlanta Arms stuff shut down after 2 stages. Ammo was so dirty powder residue got under the ramp on the gun and locked it up.

Not sure it's the way to go for non reloaders after seeing that.

Though IIRC Sevigny uses their stuff.

Ted

That was me. :o In all fairness to the folks at Atlanta Arms I have shot several thousand rounds of that load through that gun and that was the first time that has happened to me.

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Softest factory stuff I ever found was still 155pf+ and would make the 165 out of about half the 5" guns tried.

Cor-Bon manufactures a ".40 Match" round about a 138-140 PF out of a 5" Eagle. It's loaded short (1.126) for those other "Plastic" guns. It's more expensive than "home brew" in .40 at the same PF.

FWIW, WWB .40 S&W was a 155 power factor from my G22.

Ted

My .40 production/IDPA load chrono's at 147 PF in my 5" barrels (G35, and my now IDPA retired LDA), 140 in the G23 I used to use in IDPA.It cycles, it has the accuracy I want. I'd have to get a new 9mm top end for the G35 to play this person's game (I don't even have any 9mm right now that I'd be willing to use as a carry or competition gun). I use my 40's because that's what I have. I load minor not for any advantage so much as for avoiding any disadvantage to the 9mm shooters. Call me a gamer if you want - I don't mind any more.

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Can anyone tell me which .38 special factory ammo makes IDPA power factor?

I have tried several and as yet have not found one. Thus, reloading has been the only option.

Here is one of the defensive handguns used for years and years by civilian and law enforcement that can't make IDPA power factor with factory ammo, but factory ammo will make power factor in all the other calibers.

Just for discussion, why not make the power factor caliber specific instead?

Garry N

Garry,

Prior to the 2005 Ohio State IDPA match, the Match Director send out the following that may be helpful:

Chronographing, we will be running a chronograph at this match. A particular area of concern is with factory .38 special loads. A survey of factory published ballistics of various .38 Special loads was done to determine their suitability for use in IDPA competition. For purposes of this analysis, the only criteria for suitability is whether or not it meets the minimum power factor for the Stock Service Revolver division of 125,000 (muzzle velocity in ft./sec. X bullet weight in grains). This analysis takes the factory published ballistics at face value, and does not in any way, shape or form, “vouch” for their accuracy, especially due to variations in individual barrels. In some cases, the manufacturer does not indicate the length or type of barrel that was used to test velocity.

Summary: In most cases, the factory-published ballistics of .38 Special (non +P) ammunition indicates that these types of loads do not meet the minimum power floor for the IDPA SSR division. The UMC 150 grain LRN just barely beats it, but not by a significant margin (1.4%). Furthermore, most light bullet +P loads fail to meet the minimum power floor. The only factory .38 Special loads that consistently exceed a 125,000 power factor by a reasonable margin, are the 158 grain +P loads, of various bullet configurations. Unfortunately, 158 grain +P loads are not available in most of the “bargain” brands (UMC, USA or American Eagle). CCI’s Blazer +P 158 load safely makes power factory, but it isn’t very cheap ($10 / box of 50).

The charts below show the factory-published ballistics of a wide selection of Remington,Winchester, Federal and CCI .38 Special ammunition. These charts do not list all of the loads, but they do list every possible combination of bullet weight and velocity sold. The other big ammunition manufacturers offer very similar loads.

Winchester Ammunition:

Load Designation Published Velocity Calc. PF

.38 Spec. 130 gr USA FMJ (Q4171) 800 ft./sec. 104,000

.38 Spec. 150 gr USA Lead (Q4196) 845 ft./sec. 126,750

.38 Spec. 110 gr Super Clean (SC38NT) 975 ft./sec. 107,250

.38 Spec. 125 gr USA JSP (USA38SP) 850 ft./sec. 106,250

.38 Spec. 125 gr Winclean JSP (WC381) 775 ft./sec. 96,875

.38 Spec. 158 gr Super-X LRN (X38S1P) 755 ft./sec. 119,290

.38 Spec. 158 gr Super-X SWC (X38WCPSV) 755 ft./sec. 119,290

.38 Spec. +P 125 gr USA JHP (USA38JHP) 945 ft./sec. 118,125

.38 Spec. +P 158 gr Super-X LSWHP (X38SPD) 890 ft./sec. 140,620

Remington Ammunition:

.38 Spec. 110 SJHP +P Remington® Express™ (R38S10) 995 ft./sec. 109,450

.38 Spec. 110 SJHP Remington® Express™ (R38S16) 950 ft./sec. 104,500

.38 Spec. 125 SJHP +P Remington® Express™ (R38S2) 945 ft./sec. 118,125

.38 Spec. 125 BJHP +P Golden Saber™ (GS38SB) 975 ft./sec. 121,875

.38 Spec. 125 FNEB UMC® Leadless™ (LL38S17) 800 ft./sec. 100,000

.38 Spec. 125 FNEB +P UMC® Leadless™ (LL38S2) 975 ft./sec. 121,875

.38 Spec. 125 JHP +P UMC® (L38S2) 945 ft./sec. 118,125

.38 Spec. 130 MC UMC® (L38S11) 800 ft./sec. 104,000

.38 Spec. 158 LHP +P Remington® Express™ (R38S12) 890 ft./sec. 140,620

.38 Spec. 158 LRN UMC® (L38S5) 755 ft./sec. 119,290

Federal Ammunition:

.38 Spec. 158 LRN American Eagle (AE38B) 760 ft./sec. 120,080

.38 Spec. 130 FMJ American Eagle (AE38K) 950 ft./sec 123,500

CCI Ammunition:

.38 Spec. 158 LRN Blazer (3522) 750 ft./sec. 118,500

.38 Spec. 158 TMJ FN +P Blazer (3519) 850 ft./sec. 134,300

.38 Spec. 158 TMJ FN +P Blazer Clean-Fire (3475) 850 ft./sec. 134,300

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I don't see the debate. Don't like the rules? Get them changed.---jim bob

For me the debate would be: For a .45ACP, is a 125pf or even a 165pf “…full service charge ammunition…” ? As far as changing the rules, the rules in IDPA flow down hill.

Personally I don’t care what PF we have to shoot, it just seems that the rules differ from both the stated “Purpose” and “Principles” of IDPA.

"random rule generator"---(dirtypool40), I like that.:)

Respectfully,

jkelly

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I believe the rules regarding power floors are fine the way they are.

That being said, maybe the author's article was born out of frustration by witnessing a lot of cheating at the club level? Our club never used a chronograph at our monthly matches until complaints about shooters using wimpy loads surfaced. I can recount several occasions where CDP shooters where firing loads that made less noise than a factory 9mm round. Heck, one shooter using a .40 in ESP practically had his rounds bouncing off the cardboard, they were going dowrange so slow.

If you don't chrono every match, there will be people that take advantage of the fact that they can't be caught, and will load to 110 / 140 or whatever. Sure, other shooters will be suspicious and make comments, but it can't be proven. I know it happens in my club. The solution isn't to raise the power floor; the cheaters will still cheat, but at a higher pf. The solution is to chrono all the time. Or use some calibrated steel.

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Just curious. What does "purpose" or "spirit" chrono to?

Here's the thing: "purpose" and "spirit" are subjective. Power factors are objective. That means they can be empirically measured and quantified.

The rule book really isn't either/or. Mr. Wilson may have meant something in the purpose section of the rule book, but when you ask anyone to quantify what he meant, well, it's 125pf.

I don't see the debate. Don't like the rules? Get them changed.

Otherwise...move along, nothing to see here...

jr

BAM!! right there, did you see it? Nail....Head....COLLISION!!! :P

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Why are the people that follow the rules and look for advantages called "cheaters"?

If you're referring to p99shooter's post, he's apparently calling people who intentionally load under the PF cheaters, not people who follow the rules.

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I hate to agree with the Tacti-cartel and their "random rule generator" but in ESP they ought to shoot 165 if they are going to lump the .40's in there instead of in with the .45's where they belong.

FWIW, WWB .40 S&W was a 155 power factor from my G22.

Ted

In the first part of that same post I found some 155pf ammo. it's out there, but in my exp MOST .40 makes 165. You have to hunt around to find minor.

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Thanks to all for the information on the factory .38 Specials. Some of the infomation was what I had come up with myself.....but there was much that was new and informative for me. Thanks again.

Does anyone else see a problem here. Logically, in all other cal. normal factory "target" ammo makes IDPA power factor.....yet with .38 Special (the caliber used for self defense and law enforcement for many years) does not make power factor with the same "type" of target factory ammo used by the other cal. and forces the .38 Special shooter to go to +P "self defense" ammo. No other cal. requires one to go to +P to make power factor.

This seems to indicate that one can shoot "target" loads for all guns but .38 Special and the .38 Special must shoot "self defense" loads.

I believe that this is one of the reasons that more people don't shoot the SSR division. I have to say that I am one of those. I bring the revolver out here and there at a local match to "have fun" and work on trigger and sight picture, but dealing with the power factor problem keeps the gun in the safe for major matches....for the moment. <g>

I still think the power factor "solution" is find an acceptable power factor for the round used (.38, 9mm, .45, etc) and make it so that it MUST make power factor out of the gun being used.

Besides the target vs self defense .38 load issue, I also feel that a 9mm round that would not make power factor out of a Glock 17......but will out of the longer barrel of a Glock 34 is not consistent with the "spirit of the law" on which IDPA is based.

I have been to major matches and Nationals where people have looked me in the eye and said...."I know I am shooting rounds that don't make power factor in my Glock 17.......but that's ok........I can shoot under powered ammo because IT WILL MAKE POWER FACTOR out of someone else's gun."

Shouldn't the issue be that "I am shooting in SSP and there is a required Power Factor, and I choose what gun I am willing to shoot, and I MUST shoot ammo that meets the required Power Factor out of MY GUN?"

This is NOT IDPA BASHING. I know that IDPA has looked at this issue, and the "larger picture" and feel that they are trying to make the game as level a playing field as possible, but both issues are worthy of discussion......IMO.

Garry N

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I believe the PF dellema is and has become too much of focal point in our game. Be it IPSC or IDPA. Set the steel to fall at 125 and if you shoot it and it doesn't fall ? No calibration, No arbritration, no Nada!!!!!. Those of you who are loading to the correct PF, know it! Just my 2 pennys!! ;)

Ivan

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Besides the target vs self defense .38 load issue, I also feel that a 9mm round that would not make power factor out of a Glock 17......but will out of the longer barrel of a Glock 34 is not consistent with the "spirit of the law" on which IDPA is based.
Garry - FWIW, the G34 has the longest barrel allowed in SSP. The rules state that ammo must meet the PF from the longest barrel length in the division. While I agree that ammo should be reasonably close to factory in 9x19, the shooter who does this is working within the rules.

If you load your own .38 Special, you can meet the PF+5 using a standard (not +P) pressure load - 158 grain RNL over 4.5 grains of 231. It runs about 850 fps from my 4" guns.

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an increase in PF would help the nonreloaders (I reload myself) by enforcing IDPA Principle number II. "Provide a level playing field for all competitors to test the skill and ability of each individual, not the equipment or GAMESMANSHIP."

The only way to truely "provide a level playing field" so that only the abilities of the shooter are evaluated and not their choice of equipment, is to turn IDPA into IROC of the gun games. Dictate a standard platform gun, exact trigger pull weight, magazines, ammo, holster, etc. No other modifications may be done, regardless of purpose.

Otherwise there will always be a perceived advantage of a gun that tips the scales near the max for that division, or has a custom fitted barrel/bushing that improves the accuracy of the gun.

So what happens if a bunch of people whine and pout and get their wish of raising the power factor, even if it is just the floor for major, only to realize they still continue to lose to the same players? Do we then introduce trigger pull scales? Perhaps look for those applying car wax to their magazines? Perhaps we should prohibit guns that have an MSRP over $1000 to include modifications?

Even if IDPA implemented IROC equipment rules, the same shooters who consistently shoot high marks and win will continue to shoot high marks and win. However, there will always be those that will find something to declare as an unfair advantage.

:ph34r:

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The only way to truely "provide a level playing field" so that only the abilities of the shooter are evaluated and not their choice of equipment, is to turn IDPA into IROC of the gun games.---BroncoGlen

You would have to take that up with Mr. Wilson as he makes the rules. I stated that an increase in PF would help the non-reloaders (I reload myself) and would enforce IDPA Principle number II.

"Provide a level playing field for all competitors to test the skill and ability of each individual, not the equipment or GAMESMANSHIP."

I think using a low PF is gamesmanship. But you are correct as a $3,500 Wilson 1911 should have an advantage over a $350 rattle box of a 1911. In that case I would guess "gamesmanship" is in the eye of the beholder.

I don't care what PF we shoot but a reloader certainly has an advantage if his .45ACP is running at a 165PF in CDP or a 125PF in SSP and ESP as compared to the non-reloader running 190PF(?) "...full charge service ammunition..." as Mr. Wilson refers to in the Purpose of IDPA. My problem is not with the PF or how tricked out somebody's gun is but how arbitrarily some of the IDPA's Purpose and Principles seem to be encoded into the IDPA rules.

Respectfully,

jkelly

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I don't care what PF we shoot but a reloader certainly has an advantage if his .45ACP is running at a 165PF in CDP or a 125PF in SSP and ESP as compared to the non-reloader running 190PF(?) "...full charge service ammunition..."

Anyone who runs a 190 PF in SSP and ESP with a .45 has a CHOSEN to play there KNOWING the PF minimum. Anyone runing a .45 at minor PF with a .45 must get tired of waiting for the slide to return back into battery.

As far as reloading is concerned MOST reloaders have and advantage of those that buy "box" ammo simply because they often send more lead downrange for the same cost. This equates into MORE PRACTICE which by itself gives an advantage.

An excuse for loss blamed on PF is one of the oldest in the book.

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Softest factory stuff I ever found was still 155pf+ and would make the 165 out of about half the 5" guns tried.

Cor-Bon manufactures a ".40 Match" round about a 138-140 PF out of a 5" Eagle. It's loaded short (1.126) for those other "Plastic" guns. It's more expensive than "home brew" in .40 at the same PF.

Pretty cool, and if they wanted to sponsor me with 10k I'd be thrilled. But I'll venture a guess it's not $75 a thousand, so I'll have to keep reloading.

Some guys tried the USPSA's ammo service and said they liked the load too, but it is major.

Yes, there is some .40 minor out there. In the case of the CorBon, it would appear intentionally loaded to pf+5 for IDPA, but almost anything a non-reloading, tactical, real world, non-gamer, buying defensive simulation ammo in the true spirit of the sport exercise is going to grab will make "major".

I guess if you are SUPER tactical, you shoot 190pf full charge jhp, cost be damned. Again, I can't afford to, so I reload.

Any "serious" IDPA guy who wants to be competitive is likely to reload for ESP or CDP. Those aren't the "bargain" divisions anyway. In SSP, you can have under a grand in your gun, buy winny white box at Wally World while you are picking up Gatorade and a folding chair and be right in there. I wouldn't waste the time loading 9mm minor.

As an aside, the .40 cal 165 gr Fed Personal Def ammo was one of the soft ones I found; out of my STI HAwk (Commander length, in .40) it was just under, about 158-161 depending on the day. That was what I actually carried for a while, soft and accurate, but NOT cheap.

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Why do shooters of the most popular LEO and CCW cartridge (.40 S&W) HAVE to buy reloading equipment in order to shoot the "accessible, entry level, truly tactical" competition?

This should be obvious to even the most casual observer: cost. Have you priced self-defense ammo lately? About a dollar a round. Let's check the math, and consider that an average IDPA championship match would run me about $180 for AMMO alone. For that much money, I can load 2000 rounds of .40.

Next question.

jr

OK, we agree, now I will try to explain again. I guess I applied too much sarcasm on that first one and missed completely.

We are saying the same thing. I load .40 for USPSA and other games. I cannot buy, cheaply soft shooting, minor game loads for IDPA. Yes, CorBon makes a lovely 130pf load, but like you said, it’s about a buck a round. 1,000 of mine with plated hp, costs more like $75, or 7.5 cents per round, not a dollar.

I will load either way, I have the equipment, it’s just a turn of the powder dial.

What I was trying to say, was that if ESP had a 165 pf then one could, in a pinch, buy ammo with a similar pf without hunting around too much. My point was that .40 was intended as a “major” cartridge (180gr @ 1000fps), it’s #1 with LEO and CCW. Why has the “tactical shooting sport” IDPA tried to turn it into some poofy, mouse fart game load?

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What I was trying to say, was that if ESP had a 165 pf then one could, in a pinch, buy ammo with a similar pf without hunting around too much. My point was that .40 was intended as a “major” cartridge (180gr @ 1000fps), it’s #1 with LEO and CCW. Why has the “tactical shooting sport” IDPA tried to turn it into some poofy, mouse fart game load?

DP - ESP was originally designed as a place for folks to shoot single action 9x19s, like BHPs and CZ-75s, and 1911s in 9x19 and .38 Super. Because .40 S&W wasn't 10mm or .45 ACP (later, just .45 ACP) it was relegated to ESP. Some shooters decided they just didn't want to go to the expense of buying a 9x19 when they had a perfectly good .40, others thought that there might be a competitive advantage in downloading .40s to the division PF, and the rules allow that. Buying a .40 specifically for use in ESP because of the perceived advantage is a relatively recent occurance.

Where I shoot, a lot of people still drive to the match, clear their carry gun in their vehicle, shoot their factory-equivalent handloads or WWB or Blazer for the match, and reload with their carry ammo for the trip home. This includes shooters with 1911s and Glocks in .40 S&W shooting in ESP.

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