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Idpa Raising The Power Floor


Cjblackmon

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Morning,

Personally I believe the Tac Journal article in question has a flawed arguement from the start. Reloading is cheaper if you shoot very many rounds per year. Not more expensive as the fellow wrote in the Tac Journal. Thus the arguement he made is somewhat flawed. I suppose if you only shoot a few hundred rounds a year, that reloading would be more expensive, counting the intital investment. Dunno what the fellow was thinking. Either way, it is just the musing of one fellow, not a pending rule change from the BoD.

I'm thinking the sky is not falling. Interesting thread. Lots of gnashing of teeth over one man's opinion, and of course the inevitable Bill and IDPA bashing that seems to be in most every thread here. I have often wondered why this forum's rules on politeness and respect for posters doesn't apply to the sport, the BoD, and the HQ staff. It certainly isn't allowed in other parts of this forum..... but I digress.

Be safe, shoot straight, have fun, repeat.

Ken Reed

"You are what you do, everything else is just talk."

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revchuck - Well, I was there at the beginning too, but thanks for the history lesson. Who knows what they "intended". Why does so much of IDPA seems to be guessing at "intent" and who has more juice to get their interpretation used at the match? Sometimes it's tiring.

I shoot a .40 because it's what I carry and what I shoot in other games. .40 is my favorite cartridge, so I shoot it. I own one press and one set of dies. If I was going to be a full time ESP gamer I would get a 9mm and buy WWB.

I don't want the mods to turn the hose on us about the idiocy of loading minor 10mm to compete with factory 9mm in a "combat training" sport exercise because the good ole .45 needs protecting!?!?! :rolleyes: Let's step outside the IDPA approved box mentality for a second and just say .40 or larger and 165pf. WHAT A CONCEPT!!! :wacko:

I maintain that like firearms shooting similar action types and power factors should be roughly competitive with each other and therefore lumped into the same division. I don't buy "allowing" .40 in ESP just because everyone has one. There is no legion of .40 single stacks out there, for some reason the manufacturers make loads of 9mm and .38's...oh, I know, it's because you can shoot factory 9mm at 130pf and factory .40's kick a lot more and are harder to get running in a sigle stack.

IDPA needs to either lump all SA guns (Yes, Glocks included) into one divisions, or divide them by some OBJECTIVE criteria, like say......minimum caliber and power factor. :) How about .45 GAP? Walks like a .45, but I guess that shorter grip is a huge advantage. 10mm CorBon+P is somehow easier to shoot out of a Glock 20 than 230 grain 166pf puffballs out of a $3200 Wilson 1911? Nope, no sale.

Yes, I know, a $2000 9mm / .38 Super 1911 is not a game gun but somehow my real world carried .40 S&W with night sights, light rail, and everyday holster wear is.

Loading to meet a pf is not new.

Chasing IDPA rules as they change with the wind is not new.

How about something new like the term "Objective Criteria" applying to IDPA. B)

Edited by dirtypool40
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Let's step outside the IDPA approved box mentality for a second and just say .40 or larger and 165pf. WHAT A CONCEPT!!!

You're expecting me to disagree? :P I also think that .357s (Mags and SIGs) should meet the same PF.

If this were to happen, we'd hear the same howling we heard when ESR guys found out they were expected to shoot Major loads out of 10mm and .45 ACP revolvers. My ears still hurt from that, and it was a year ago. :wacko:

In the meantime, I've got too much work to do on my shooting to get upset over this. I still believe that shooters who beat me usually do so by ability rather than equipment.

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I wouldn't waste the time loading 9mm minor.

I reload it myself. Partly cause there is some savings, but mostly cause I enjoy reloading ammo.

Why has the “tactical shooting sport” IDPA tried to turn it into some poofy, mouse fart game load?

To say this, you are working on the belief that the 9mm has no merit as a carry round.

Many people choose to use a 9mm or are issued them by their agencies. As I said earlier, many of the PD near me still use the 9mm.

Gonna just tell them to go away, as they are not shooting tactical loads?

I've always thought that a better solution would be ESP and CDP's defining factor be merely power factor. Shoot a bunny fart .40? ESP Shoot a hot .40? CDP. ANd so on.

SSP stays at 125,000 for the 9mm guys. This will likely never happen, but that's how I think it should go down.

Ted

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Anyone who runs a 190 PF in SSP and ESP with a .45 has a CHOSEN to play there KNOWING the PF minimum.---Crusher

Yes of course they know. But that doesn't mean that the non-loader is not at a disvantage.

As far as reloading is concerned MOST reloaders have and advantage of those that buy "box" ammo simply because they often send more lead downrange for the same cost. This equates into MORE PRACTICE which by itself gives an advantage.---Crusher

Absolutely and I have said as much in an earlier post in this thread. But shooting a 190PF(?) .45ACP against a 165PF or 125PF .45 ACP is also a disadvantage.

An excuse for loss blamed on PF is one of the oldest in the book.---Crusher

As a reloader I have to use other excuses for when I lose.:) But noting that it is one of the oldest (excuses) in the book does not invalidate it.

Respectfully,

jkelly

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How about someone putting a timer on 125 pf loads, 140 pf loads and 165 pf loads and get some quanatative data. It is bad enough that new shooters think there is a perceived advantage/disadvantage between some equipment. I used to think so, but Angus and Dave S. could whip my behind with a single shot pistol (or sling shot)while I used my high speed 21 round USPSA limited rig. The article writer is merely stating an opinion about a perceived dissadvantage. I used to think the same thing until I put a timer on it. I loaded production rounds down to the 125 pf floor. I could actually feel the slide moving slowly while I waited to be able to make the next shot. I then bumped up my pf to about 140. I did several drills and averaged 10 strings for each pf ammo. Can anyone guess the results?

That's right, I was faster and had better hits with the higher pf loads. Some people are making a mountain out of a mole hill. We already have enough perceived advantages/dissadvantages for new/less veteran shooters. let's not give them anymore. The next thing will be that he beat me because he practiced too much, so let's ban all practicing from IDPA shooters.

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How about someone putting a timer on 125 pf loads, 140 pf loads and 165 pf loads and get some quanatative data. It is bad enough that new shooters think there is a perceived advantage/disadvantage between some equipment. I used to think so, but Angus and Dave S. could whip my behind with a single shot pistol (or sling shot)while I used my high speed 21 round USPSA limited rig. The article writer is merely stating an opinion about a perceived dissadvantage. I used to think the same thing until I put a timer on it. I loaded production rounds down to the 125 pf floor. I could actually feel the slide moving slowly while I waited to be able to make the next shot. I then bumped up my pf to about 140. I did several drills and averaged 10 strings for each pf ammo. Can anyone guess the results?

That's right, I was faster and had better hits with the higher pf loads. Some people are making a mountain out of a mole hill. We already have enough perceived advantages/dissadvantages for new/less veteran shooters. let's not give them anymore. The next thing will be that he beat me because he practiced too much, so let's ban all practicing from IDPA shooters.

That's all well and good, and I agree with much of what you say. But now let's compare someone shooting a chopped and modified G21 loaded with 185 PF ammo vs. another fellow shooting a G35 loaded to 127, both of equal skill, both in ESP. Which do you think has the advantage?

Lower PF DOES provide an advantage. Whether the shooter has the ability to begin with is completely independant of that, it's just one factor in the entire equasion.

In the end, a 125 PF allows the shooter greater range of choice. If I want to shoot 125.5 PF, I can. If I want to go atomic, I can, it's my choice, and I have to accept the consequences. IMO, that's the way it ought to be.

Andy C.

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That's all well and good, and I agree with much of what you say. But now let's compare someone shooting a chopped and modified G21 loaded with 185 PF ammo vs. another fellow shooting a G35 loaded to 127, both of equal skill, both in ESP. Which do you think has the advantage?

I really don't think it's that much of a difference. Since I'm guessing that Dave S. has more pressing business, I'll test just that. I have a Glock 21 for CDP, Glock 34 and 35 for the others. When I have time (read during my spring break) I'll set two stages from a local IDPA match and I'll run them a few times with each gun and load. I might even talk the local IDPA master into joining in for the experiment. I really think that the difference of the averages of the runs will be negligable.

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I really think that the difference of the averages of the runs will be negligable.

I tend to agree. When I shot CDP exclusively I reloaded my practice/match ammo, and almost always won CDP (or less often Limited-10 in USPSA). Came the times I came up on two matches (one IDPA, one USPSA) without any of my "lightly recoiling" match ammo loaded. In both cases, I just grabbed a few boxes of factory hardball (Wolf for the USPSA match, Black Hills for IDPA) and headed out the door. Strangely enough, I won my division in both matches. My impression has always been that, at a certain skill level, you get to the point that differences in recoil level don't make as much difference as they do to people at the lower skill levels. It's not that we can't shoot the more heavily recoiling stuff as well, it's that we can more easily shoot the softer recoiling stuff to the same level. You do hit a point in the evolution of your skill level when you get just really impatient with anything that stands in the way of your easily achieving maximum performance.

OTOH, maybe it's a mental thing: if you think it's a disadvantage, it is. If you think it's not a disadvantage, it isn't.

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I think the whole power factor thing is way over rated. Let say you have two loads, one right at 125 and another at 130. If I handed you shot the gun with one load, then five minutes later shot the other load, I bet you would not be able to tell the difference between 5 pf. Is 5 pf going to make you shoot like Rob Leatham?

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I really think that the difference of the averages of the runs will be negligable.

I tend to agree.

My impression has always been that, at a certain skill level, you get to the point that differences in recoil level don't make as much difference as they do to people at the lower skill levels.

I think that is a major point that shouldn't be overlooked. Most of us aren't "... at (or above) a certain skill level...." but decidedly below that skill level.

There, the difference can be startling.

Andy C.

I think the whole power factor thing is way over rated. Let say you have two loads, one right at 125 and another at 130. If I handed you shot the gun with one load, then five minutes later shot the other load, I bet you would not be able to tell the difference between 5 pf. Is 5 pf going to make you shoot like Rob Leatham?

5 feet per second is negligable. Now try the difference between just over 125, and 185. Let me know how that comes out.

And no, it won'tmake you (or me)shoot like Rob Leatham.

:o

Andy C.

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I have often wondered why this forum's rules on politeness and respect for posters doesn't apply to the sport, the BoD, and the HQ staff. It certainly isn't allowed in other parts of this forum..... but I digress.

Well, I can answer that question (assuming it wasn't rhetorical) at least as far as I'm concerned. I haven't edited or deleted anything in this thread because I haven't seen anything that needed whacking. I've seen a lot of people say, "I don't understand the logic behind this rule" or "I don't agree with this rule" but I haven't seen rudeness, I haven't seen insults. I've seen people behave themselves, overall, with the comportment we expect from adults - and on www.brianenos.com

But, as you point out, we digress widely from the topic of "Should IDPA raise the power floor(s)"? My take on it: Naaaaaaaah.

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5 feet per second is negligable.

I didn't say 5 fps, I said 5 pf.

I seriously think if you were to do a scientific test of shooting 9mm factory vs. 9mm at 125 pf, the differences would be so insignificant that it wouldn't matter. Heck I go back and forth in ESP between shooting a 130 pf 9mm load and a 170 pf 40 that I don't see any differences in my times.

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I think we tend to base our opinions from the vantage point of where we see ourselves as opposed to the vantage point of others.

For the truly elite shooters in IDPA and the almost elite Masters I would guess that the differences in recoil that we are speaking about could be negligent, although perhaps not to all. But for largest number of IDPA shooters, those that are not as accomplished, such as the Novices, the Marksmen, the Sharpshooters and perhaps most Experts, the ability to control the recoil difference between a 125PF hand-loaded .45ACP and a factory 190PF .45ACP load could be significant.

The less accomplished are the people I see as being at a disadvantage to the reloaders, not the professionals, semi-professionals or want to be professionals.

While I reload, and gain by doing so, I do have compassion for those who don’t or can’t.

Respectfully,

jkelly

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Obviously none of you have seen me shoot. I'm a "B" class limited and production shooter and a sharpshooter in ssp and marksman in esp. I'm hardly even in the middle of the pack, but even at my skill level I can tell there is no real advantage. We were talking about this same issue factory vs reloads about two weeks ago and all kind of agreed that the main difference was that win. white box 9mm was loud compared to our reloads with VV N320. No real recoil difference just more noise. Maybe the noise of the round makes a difference for some shooters?

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Shooting CDP I can damn sure tell the difference in my 168pf handloads and Rem. Green Box 193pf ammo. Both in time and accuracy....

"The less accomplished are the people I see as being at a disadvantage to the reloaders, not the professionals, semi-professionals or want to be professionals."

I agree with Mr. jkelly. The people who are high Masters and GM quality always appear (to me) to be the ones who have the "let them eat cake" replys.....

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...all kind of agreed that the main difference was that win. white box 9mm was loud (and dirty too--JK) compared to our reloads with VV N320.---Fireant

I'd agree that WWB 9mm at perhaps 130PF(?) is not a large difference from the minimun 125PF and is very close to the buffer a reloader might add to ensure they make mimimun.

Respectfully,

jkelly

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5 feet per second is negligable.

I didn't say 5 fps, I said 5 pf.

I seriously think if you were to do a scientific test of shooting 9mm factory vs. 9mm at 125 pf, the differences would be so insignificant that it wouldn't matter. Heck I go back and forth in ESP between shooting a 130 pf 9mm load and a 170 pf 40 that I don't see any differences in my times.

Sorry about the misread....

But to the point, if there is a difference, it is no longer insignificant to a competitive shooter.

Andy C.

I think we tend to base our opinions from the vantage point of where we see ourselves as opposed to the vantage point of others.

For the truly elite shooters in IDPA and the almost elite Masters I would guess that the differences in recoil that we are speaking about could be negligent, although perhaps not to all. But for largest number of IDPA shooters, those that are not as accomplished, such as the Novices, the Marksmen, the Sharpshooters and perhaps most Experts, the ability to control the recoil difference between a 125PF hand-loaded .45ACP and a factory 190PF .45ACP load could be significant.

The less accomplished are the people I see as being at a disadvantage to the reloaders, not the professionals, semi-professionals or want to be professionals.

While I reload, and gain by doing so, I do have compassion for those who don’t or can’t.

Respectfully,

jkelly

This is exactly what I am saying... I'm not in favor of raising the PF or anything of the like, but I'm not going to try and poohpooh the fact that the ability to shoot a lower PF does provide an advantage..... however miniscule for some shooters.

Rather than trying to cater to those who can't or won't reload, or trying to penalize those of us who do, let's just leave well enoguh alone and hope that those who can't/won't will see the light and start to support the reloading industry!!

:)

Andy C.

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If they were to change the rules to require factory ammo power factor, they would also need to create 2 new divisions to deal with people shooting 40 S&W. Some one would complain that it isn't fair to for 40 shooters to compete with factory ammo vs someone with 9mm factory ammo.

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If they were to change the rules to require factory ammo power factor, they would also need to create 2 new divisions to deal with people shooting 40 S&W.

Yuppers, IDPA's great oversight; what to do with the most popular LEO and CCW (and Limited class) cartridge? I know let's pretend it's minor and isn't for LEO or defense, but games only, and therefore you will need to handload mousefarts in order to shoot IDPA with it. :blink:

Some one would complain that it isn't fair to for 40 shooters to compete with factory ammo vs someone with 9mm factory ammo.

Why just because it's 50+ pf different? :P The same IDPAer's who "love how the koolade makes the emporer's new clothes look" would cry a river if we made them shoot factory .45 acp against factory 9mm. Hmm, interesting. ;)

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I can't belive the even published that article, it just don't make much since, and goes to support the idea that others think of idpa shooters and the bashing begins.

As for power factors go, my splits and trans are about the same in my G34 minor and my G35 major, and my times with my Limited PARA .40 major beat them both. One would be better off spending more time at the range and dry firing than worring about what power factors everyone else is shooting.

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Hey f250sd,

What's dry firing?

Just kidding! If I spent more of my time dry firing, than surfing these shooting forums, I'd probably be a Master by now.

I don't own a .40, yet, so I don't know what most factory .40 power factors at.

Granted the 9mm WWB is real close to 130 PF. I was thinking about chopping up the divisions into platform/action type, caliber, mag capacity and PF specific. But then the match results would start to look like something CAS puts out.

Over 70 you shoot against these guys, over 80 you shoot against the other octagenarians, duelist, etc. etc. Makes my head spin just thinking about the different combinations they have come up with. Must be an aggravation for the scorekeepers.

It makes sense to put the power floor at 125 for ESP and SSP 9mm guns just because WWB is so cheap. It is a good way to lure novice handgunners into the sport.

Maybe the BoD needs to take a sampling of the most common factory offerings in .40 and .45, chrono them, average the PF's, and adjust the power floors accordingly.

Then reloading will not be so much about loading down to game a PF. It will be just a matter of economics since reloading for those two calibers should be cheaper than buying factory all the time. Okay, economics and felt recoil versus the factory stuff.

Then if there is a new shooter (non reloader) and his only pistola is a .40 or a .45, he won't feel disadvantaged by the veteran competitors who reload.

Here is a link to a thread I started last May about PF, when I was a complete noob on this forum:

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?...hl=power+factor

Could it also be that most .40 guns evolved from 9mm platforms? And that's why 9 and 40 get clumped together in ESP and SSP.

Chills

Edited by Chills1994
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The whole point of this wasn't to start another IDPA Complaint Thread but rather just state some ideas on what they thought of the article. Are we all not under the same impression that if IDPA did raise the Power Factor that the same guys that were winning with the 165pf loads would still win with the factory loads? Yes. We all come to the same conclusion as well, if pf is at 165 and you reload, why beat yourself and your gun up shooting 195-200pf with a .45?

I have a hard time believing that the IDPA Journal would publish the article knowing that it would raise so many eyebrows and complaints. I called the Journal to ask if that guy works for the Journal or is it just a random letter that got printed (I didn't know) and it's just a members stated opinion. I think like this thread, all it did was stir up a Hornet's nest.

I started shooting IDPA to get into competitive shooting, I really like it. I met a few IPSC/USPSA shooters and started shooting both. In my IDPA clubs there a few guys with strong animosity towards IPSC/USPSA and it's funny, the IPSC/USPSA guys could care less and they just shoot to have fun. I have seen so much bickering and complaining in IDPA, uneven ROing (one RO calls procedural for something while another RO doesn't for the same thing, or even worse, RO calls procedural on one guy while not calling it on someones else who did the exact same thing), there's a lot of incongruency. You don't hear the complaining in IPSC that you do in IDPA. It really turns a lot of people off to the sport and people end up leaving. I know that the simple thing for me to do is to leave IDPA alltogether, but honestly, I like it. I've made a lot of new friends and I stay away from the group that always gripes and complains. A lot of people left IPSC because of the gaming factor, "it wasn't how good you were it's what you could afford to buy", people that didn't have the money to buy race guns complained it was uneven and unfair, they formed IDPA. Now that we're all shooting stock guns, guess what? It still isn't fair. Do you think it will it ever end?

We need to find a way to keep IDPA fun as well as keeping everybody on the same page and congruent with the rules. Or are we in that Quandry where not everyone is going to be happy?

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