Idpa Raising The Power Floor

[Chills1994]

I think what gets people alll eager to jump on the "why I hate IDPA" bandwagon is that there are lots of folks who...

(got interested in handguns, maybe for self defense purposes, maybe their state has CCW, maybe they wanted to compete and hang out w/ like minded people)

....spent a lot of money on a gun and/or equipment like holsters, mag pouches, belts, and reloading equipment and the BoD decided to change the rules.

Maybe their pistola is now illegal in IDPA? Maybe, like me, their $15 Uncle Mike's kydex holster is now illegal.

So having to spend more money for currently legal equipment sticks in their craw and makes them biased about IDPA. They're in it for now, until something better comes along.

(BTW, are my UM kydex mag pouches illegal now too?)

Hey BoD, why switch horses midstream?

How does my suggestion of chrono'ing the most common factory offerings in 9, 40 and 45, and using caliber specific average PF's from that data to set new power floors sound?

Did somebody already mention this?

We could then get rid of the classification system. All you single action single stack .40 (PF = 1??) shooters compete against each other, all you DAO, double stack 9mm shooters compete against each other, etc.

A division only kinda thing. The downside to that is that it's going to deter new shooters from going to major matches, because there will be no hope for them of ever walking away w/ a new toy from the prize table.

It'll give the middle of the pack shooters the incentive to practice, practice, practice, and hopefully move up in the ranks, not necessarily the divisions. Or they'll just continue being middle of the pack and stay at home shooting the local matches. Or they'll drop out of IDPA all together.

I had a phone conversation with a very well know competitor about a month ago. He said IDPA's membership has dropped by at least 2,000 since the new rule book came out.

Funny, how CAS has 60 or 70 thousand members.

I haven't read all 95 posts up to this point so please forgive me if the regulars here have already suggested what I just did.

Man, oh, man, this thread's got legs! Lots of views, lots of replies.

Anybody up for a Desert Eagle .50AE division? LOL? Now that would get expensive!

Chills

Edited February 23, 2006 by Chills1994

[Duane Thomas]

A division only kinda thing. The downside to that is that it's going to deter new shooters from going to major matches, because there will be no hope for them of ever walking away w/ a new toy from the prize table.

Doesn't IPDA specifically outlaw prize tables awarded by finish placement? At the Idaho state match there was no prize table. At the Washington state matches, they've always had a prize table but your turn at it is awarded by random drawing.

Funny, how CAS has 60 or 70 thousand members.

Actually, they don't. Their badge numbers may be up that high, but that doesn't count the members who've dropped out. SASS's policy has always been they don't reissue badge #s - once it's awarded, it's gone.

[Patrick Sweeney]

OK, let's try a little heresy here: any power factor you select is an arbitrary number. Pick a number, any number, it doesn't matter, there will be complaints.

As for what recoil "means" I had an interesting experience whilst trying to break a Wayne Novak Hi-Power. I tested some loads, and found a 147 grain load that posted a 127 PF. I found it sucked, for me. I was waiting for the gun. I actually shot drills faster with the Cor-bon 125+P load that made Major.

Shooting ESP, or USPSA Minor, I actually prefer something in the 135-140 range, as the gun feels like it is actually working with me.

But then, I've shot more than one USPSA or IPSC match with pin loads; 193-195PF.

[Duane Thomas]

Patrick,

I agree. It's kind of a big topic to get into here, so I've avoided it, but I've discovered over the last six months or so that for me it's not how "soft" a load is, or how low the power factor, but how the gun tracks and recovers in recoil that's important to me. My current match load runs about a 138 power factor, and in the near future I'm probably going to bump the powder charge a few tenths just to see what happens.

[Chills1994]

Okay....Okay...For all of those folks who tinker with heavy bullets putt -putting out of their guns, did you change your recoil spring?

I only ask because no one has spefically mentioned that in any of their posts so far. Maybe I missed that in the 70 plus posts I didn't read.

Of course you'll be waiting on the gun to go back into battery if the spring isn't matched to the load. Or am I wrong on that too?

Now wouldn't that be sweet if I had access to some high speed camera equipment and some very accurate timers, to see if there was an actual time difference in how quickly an auto locks up given different loads but the same spring. A ransom rest would be nice too.

Then if I could convert it to an MPEG or a WMV and upload to some site.

Holy cow! Batman! That would be cool.

Yep, 190 + PF is good medicine for bowling pins.

How high of a PF could you safely go to with 9mm 147 gr bullets in a stock gun, for pins?

I think if you're in action shooting competitions long enough that you have permanently etched that muscle memory into the brain, then PF doesn't matter.

Some of these veterans of IPSC and IDPA who are top notch shooters now might have gotten into those competitions back when factory ammo was a far less attractive option than it is today. So saving money by reloading was one motivation, the other being to tailor a load to your gun.

Back to "it's the Indian not the arrow" argument.

For a novice, who hasn't developed that muscle memory, handling the recoil from full power loads is going to slow them down on their way to mastery. Not to mention the money they will be out for all of the factory ammunition they have bought.

Ah heck, let's just all give up on autos and shoot wheelguns. If the S&W performance center would make their 8 shot 627 with a 4" barrel as required by IDPA, that would get my attention. Of course, I could only fire 6 shots out of it.

Oh yeah, I figured I kinda slipped when I said CAS has 60 to 70 K members. I kinda knew that they didn't reuse numbers when some member drops out.

But I think there are many more non-members of USPSA who come out and shoot IPSC matches, that IDPA membership numbers vs. USPSA is kind of a wash. IDPA pushes people to join as quickly as possible.

Oh yeah, sorry about the prize table comment. Of course the random drawings for great prizes is quite an attraction, maybe even moreso to the less proficient shooters.

For some people, it all comes down to getting that trophy. Everybody shooting the same platform, caliber, mag capacity, and PF lumped together in the same division with no classes is going to mean less of a chance of getting a trophy.

Chills

[GmanCdp]

I happen to like the way my ESP .45ACP Kimber shoots at a blazing 560 fps. That is a 128.8 pf.

got ya beat....230 hp@543.66.....

see ya in april......

[dirtypool40]

I have heard of guys experimenting with 250grainers at 660, or 300 grainers at at a simmering 550fps for major or just lobbing them underhand for minor.

[PJONES5]

I think this one has about run its course.

pat

Edited February 24, 2006 by PJONES5

[COF]

If this were to happen, we'd hear the same howling we heard when ESR guys found out they were expected to shoot Major loads out of 10mm and .45 ACP revolvers. My ears still hurt from that, and it was a year ago.

Ahem...Actually, the howling was not about the caliber but the power factor being dictated by the method of loading.

[austinkroe]

Wow, this article did exactly what I intended it to do, and that was to create discussion.

First off, I would like to say that there were several typos in the article and I apologize for that.

Jkelly stated the general idea of my article in his response on the first page.

My idea behind the article was created through discussions with many of my IDPA friends. Most of the people that I talked to used either +P of magnum rounds for defensive purposes. I felt that the power floors did not go hand in hand with IDPA's stated principles and I felt it should be talked about. I take the biggest issue with the PF in CDP but I see the others as a little low too.

I am no slouch at shooting and I use WWB and win local matches with some regularity. I don't really care that much about what other shooters are using because the only thing that will make me a better shooter is myself.

However, I do think the IDPA rule book contradicts itself in several places and I just feel the need to point them out for raising discussion.

-Austin Crowe

[Clay1]

Austin, thanks for stopping in and putting your voice to the discussion. The board is a great place to discuss various aspects of the shooting sports. Sorry that your introduction to the BE board had to be a little on the rough side.

While not in favor of changing the power factor, (honestly not in favor of changing any of the rules in USPSA or IDPA - would rather just get to the shooting and working on my technique), you can see that your thoughts did start a discussion on not only the principles of IDPA but also on the rules.

Again, welcome to the board and thanks for offering an interesting article to the Tactical Journal.

Rick

[austinkroe]

Austin, thanks for stopping in and putting your voice to the discussion. The board is a great place to discuss various aspects of the shooting sports. Sorry that your introduction to the BE board had to be a little on the rough side.

I am in no way bothered by others reactions. I have been lurking for a while and I have no problme with respecting other people's opinions. The article was solely my opinion and I am flattered that it caused such a large discussion.

[Cjblackmon]

I don't really care that much about what other shooters are using because the only thing that will make me a better shooter is myself.

-Austin Crowe

That kinda contradicts what you wrote when you said in your article "So, I beg of all you shooters out there. Don't reload your ammo to the floor; use full power ammo to shoot IDPA. I think we should all strive to shoot about 15,000-20,000 over the power floor".

Not caring and begging don't sound like the same thing to me.

As far as being flattered for the response, dude you were getting ripped one side down the other on every other post. Yes there are probably a lot of contradictions to to the rules, but that article wasn't taken by the readers as general discussion but as another gripe.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm only going by what you said in your article and your posts.

[austinkroe]

Yes it was yet another gripe, but I wrote it to be that way. I felt that the way I worded the article would create the most discussion. I used the word beg because I believe it imparted a sense of urgancy to the article. Maybe I went about obtaining my objective in the wrong way but the point is that I tried and that people are talkign about the idea any way.

As for the people that "ripped" me. I could honestly care less. Some of the actually made very good arguments and I am glad to see that.

Just trying to get a flow of ideas going. The article was just my opinion and I am more than happy to read other people's opinions as well.

[Cjblackmon]

Yes it was yet another gripe, but I wrote it to be that way. I felt that the way I worded the article would create the most discussion. I used the word beg because I believe it imparted a sense of urgancy to the article. Maybe I went about obtaining my objective in the wrong way but the point is that I tried and that people are talkign about the idea any way.

As for the people that "ripped" me. I could honestly care less. Some of the actually made very good arguments and I am glad to see that.

Just trying to get a flow of ideas going. The article was just my opinion and I am more than happy to read other people's opinions as well.

Okay what you're saying now makes sense. The only thing that bothers me is that there is a lot of griping in the sport. So many people that are whining about rules, gear, gaming, etc. and I myself took the article that way. You did state your case, and made a very, very big topic of discussion. I just saw your article as another complaint and wanted to defend IDPA and it's rules.

I wish there weren't so much contraversey to the sport. It's how I first got into competitive shooting and I really love to shoot IDPA. There's just a certain few at the clubs I just want to stay away from because listening to them just drains the life out of you. It really brings down the sport and drives people away.

[Chills1994]

Austin Kroe,

You say that most people use + P ammo for defensive purposes....

Well, I've got a few things to say about that:

1. I assume you're talking about people who can lawfully CCW in whatever state you or your shooting buddies happen to live. Here in IL, there is no legal provision for CCW, so there is really no emphasis on what ammo to carry (e.g. + P, JHP's). If I were to end up in some "defensive situation" I'll use whatever ammo for whatever caliber gun I can get my hands on the quickest, doesn't matter if it's a 200 gr SWC at 600 fps, or a 185 gr JHP at 1,200 fps.

2. + P ammo, especially in the hollow point varieties, would get really expensive to practice with

3. Guns are going to get battered up shooting + P's all the time.

4. JHP's don't leave nice clean (read smaller) holes like a SWC.

5. Some guns don't reliably feed JHP's.

So again, my recommendation still stands about 9 and 40 having the same PF. Keep 9 at 125 because WWB, the cheapest new shooter alternative, is right close to that. But in 40, just average out the PF's for the most common bullet weight from the most common manufacturers. Of course, if you go through all of that you might as well:

1. Take Glocks out of SSP and put them in their own division. Or, put DA/SA autos in 9 and 40 in their own division. There is just something too gamey about a Glock in SSP having a lighter trigger pull than my 1911 .45 in CDP.

2. Add bonus points for shooting at or above a particular power level, most likely in .40, in ESP and SSP. Say, you could get a half second per each target deducted from your score if your ammo is over 150 pf.

Of course, it would strictly be an honor thing since not all of the state and local matches are going to chrono everyone's ammo.

3. Have a separate .40 division with it's own PF, so IDA would end up with 7 divisions total.

In the end though it'll just be a scorekeeping nightmare.

Chills

Edited February 28, 2006 by Chills1994

[Bob Hostetter]

I have tried to stay out of this because so many people have strong feelings about this issue. But having said that I believe HQ should set the power factors for the various caliber based on industry standards.

45's should be equal to a 230gr bullet at 850fps

40's should be equal to a 180gr bullet at 1000fps

9's should be equal to a 115gr bullet at 1125fps

etc, etc, etc, etc............

Since the sport is supposed to be based the realistic use of a handgun, that is the only way to keep it real.

Edited February 28, 2006 by Bob Hostetter

[Harmon]

matches are won by everything you do when your NOT shooting.

change the power factors if you want...the level playing field never actually exists as long as everybody uses the guns(and ammo) they want.

If your getting beat by the 166 pf CDP guys and all you can get is the Full power factory loads....PRACTICE MORE...its not thier ammunition thats giving them the winning edge...its their determination to win.

anyone who has ever won anything is a gamesman...and if want to win, you need to be one too. If you dont care about winning and your just out to practice, Whats the point of complaining about the guys(and gals) who do win all the time?

If IDPA wants to keep shooters, they need to keep the rules as-is for a while...and if it keeps going the way its going now, idpa will be on the way out

.Harmon

[GmanCdp]

shot 2 uspsa matches in 05...got chronyed both times..shot 7 major idpa matches..never got chronyed....also note...look around whenever you leave a major match/or going out to eat with friends...most have on them a 97k to 107k pf 38 spl in their pocket..being shot hurts....period...

Edited March 1, 2006 by GmanCdp

[Gun Geek]

I have tried to stay out of this because so many people have strong feelings about this issue. But having said that I believe HQ should set the power factors for the various caliber based on industry standards.

45's should be equal to a 230gr bullet at 850fps

40's should be equal to a 180gr bullet at 1000fps

9's should be equal to a 115gr bullet at 1125fps

etc, etc, etc, etc............

Since the sport is supposed to be based the realistic use of a handgun, that is the only way to keep it real.

Had to do the math here:

230gn @ 850fps = 195,500pf; 230gn @ 165,000pf = 717fps

180gn @ 1000fps = 180,000pf; 180gn @ 125,000pf = 694fps

115gn @ 1125fps = 129,000pf; 115gn @ 125,000pf = 1086fps

Point is that there would be a big diff for 45's and very little diff for 9's. Not sure I know exactly what that means.

I can attest from personal experience that shooting enough 45 ACP at 195,500 pf to get good will beat up the shooter, and I think the gun. I used to shoot pins at this powerfactor and wow...

Personally I would be OK with upping the floors to something closer to the standards. I don't think it should be quite as hot as the defensive loads - this will require people to hand load since we couldn't afford that hot stuff off the shelf. IDPA would do itself a great disservice to exclude readily available cheap (white box, wolf, etc...) ammo.

I have experimented with slow moving chunks of lead (300gn from a 45 ACP). As stated before, with a light spring and a smooth gun, no problem. However, watching the bullets go down range was very distracting. It made a few folks nervous... It is also dangerous on steel - anything moving slower than 550 or 600fps will bounce off of steel and come back.

Edited March 4, 2006 by Gun Geek

[Chills1994]

Thanks GunGeek about posting about the bullets bouncing back off steel if they're just putt putting along at 550 to 600 fps. That would be a painful less from the School of Hard Knocks.

Does IDPA have a minimum velocity rule?

Steel is fun to shoot at, and a good way to activate a moving/swinging target.

Chills

[Bones]

It's amazing how many relatively bright people spend their time reacting to someone's published fantasy.

In the end, there is no way to gadget yourself to Master and the monochromatic levatating torsos don't shoot back.

Craig

[Gun Geek]

Thanks GunGeek about posting about the bullets bouncing back off steel if they're just putt putting along at 550 to 600 fps. That would be a painful less from the School of Hard Knocks.

Does IDPA have a minimum velocity rule?

Steel is fun to shoot at, and a good way to activate a moving/swinging target.

Chills

It was a very painful lesson

There is no minimum velocity rule in IDPA (just the pf of course). SASS has a problem with this big 45 colt or 44 mag bullets going slow - the guys at our club set the steel at an angle so that the bullets deflect downward.

I loooove steel. 22's on steel is smokin' (but I drift the thread)

[Bear23]

I finally received my tactical journal yesterday...

Read the article, found it a bit, ahem, whiney.

Keep the rules as they are or IDPA will confuse a new generation of shooters and push away older ones.. The power factors are fine, leave em alone.

When i first started shooting (IDPA) I witness alot of shooters using downloaded ammo in SSP and ESP....125 PF...Using 40's or 45's... I now beat these shooters on a regular basis with ammo that meets 165 PF.

I shoot a single stack .40 in ESP.....because i can't shoot it in CDP.. and shoot it at 175 PF....It works for me...Same load i use in USPSA, i like how the gun tracks with it... I tried downloading to 140ish...hated it, the gun cyled too slow, and went back to full power ammo.

One thing i've learned, its the shooter, not the gun or the ammo.

[the duck of death]

*QUOTE*

There is just something too gamey about a Glock in SSP having a lighter trigger pull than my 1911 .45 in CDP.

TUT,TUT--let's not get carried away moving the G I'm very content to shoot it in SSP.