Bruce Posted February 19, 2006 Share Posted February 19, 2006 Fact is, an organization could hand the same gun loaded with the same ammo to every competitor, and the names at the top of the game would still remain the same. Shooting well is far more complicated than what ammo and gun is being used. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
n2ipsc Posted February 19, 2006 Share Posted February 19, 2006 The bomb in IDPA already exploded. It was called no light in the belt channel plus splitting the smallest division (revolver) into two seperate divisions. That "unprecedented stability of the rules" thing... (Sorry, I had the right to remain silent - but not the ability - now I'm going to go fondle my .40 LDA and 5"-bbl 625...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rvb Posted February 19, 2006 Share Posted February 19, 2006 Hi all, I'm mostly a lurker, and usually just toss the TJ when it comes... but I happened to flip through this one and the pf article irked me (why I usually just toss it). I definately agree that's it's a silly argument ... I was knocking on the door of MA w/ WWB 9mm. Shot it for years. I never felt that I was at a disadvantage. Dished out a lot of good-natured ribbing about "wimp" loads, and now take the same ribbing now that I load my own... but I NEVER really felt disadvantaged buying factory loads. It was "on me" to step up my performance. When I do shoot the classifier now, I usually do it w/ my match 9mm in SSP/ESP and handloaded 9s. I then usually repeat w/ my carry gun in .45 using factory loads, just to get some "on-the-clock" trigger time w/ my carry gun. I'm always amazed that the times are SO close over a 90-rnd course of fire. Usually the difference is like 2 seconds difference over 90 rounds. Both are DA/SA. I'm not as "intimiately familiar" w/ my carry gun (ie it doesn't get dry-fired every night, etc), which may account for some of the time difference. Those who whine about powfer factory could easily impress upon themselves how silly their arguments sound if they performed a similiar comparison. Considering WWB made like 128 pf at the couple matches I had it chrono'd at, I don't see how you can raise the SSP pwer floor. Unless you start making pf calier specific, or go to a major/minor scoring system... both of which would, IMO, defeat the "purpose" of the GAME by over-complicating it. If people want to make IDPA "training," they need to not turn in their scores at the end of the day and just shoot it the way they "feel" is best. So far, none of the "tactical" types I've suggested that to have been willing to toss their scores in the trash before going home, they all seem to end up in the score bin ... must be a competitive nature lurking there somewhere ... sincerely, rvb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlin Orr Posted February 19, 2006 Share Posted February 19, 2006 Hi all, I'm mostly a lurker, and usually just toss the TJ when it comes... but I happened to flip through this one and the pf article irked me (why I usually just toss it).I definately agree that's it's a silly argument ... I was knocking on the door of MA w/ WWB 9mm. Shot it for years. I never felt that I was at a disadvantage. Dished out a lot of good-natured ribbing about "wimp" loads, and now take the same ribbing now that I load my own... but I NEVER really felt disadvantaged buying factory loads. It was "on me" to step up my performance. When I do shoot the classifier now, I usually do it w/ my match 9mm in SSP/ESP and handloaded 9s. I then usually repeat w/ my carry gun in .45 using factory loads, just to get some "on-the-clock" trigger time w/ my carry gun. I'm always amazed that the times are SO close over a 90-rnd course of fire. Usually the difference is like 2 seconds difference over 90 rounds. Both are DA/SA. I'm not as "intimiately familiar" w/ my carry gun (ie it doesn't get dry-fired every night, etc), which may account for some of the time difference. Those who whine about powfer factory could easily impress upon themselves how silly their arguments sound if they performed a similiar comparison. Considering WWB made like 128 pf at the couple matches I had it chrono'd at, I don't see how you can raise the SSP pwer floor. Unless you start making pf calier specific, or go to a major/minor scoring system... both of which would, IMO, defeat the "purpose" of the GAME by over-complicating it. If people want to make IDPA "training," they need to not turn in their scores at the end of the day and just shoot it the way they "feel" is best. So far, none of the "tactical" types I've suggested that to have been willing to toss their scores in the trash before going home, they all seem to end up in the score bin ... must be a competitive nature lurking there somewhere ... sincerely, rvb Welcome to the forums! I agree with your take on this. +1 from me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jkelly Posted February 19, 2006 Share Posted February 19, 2006 QUOTE(jkelly @ Feb 18 2006, 07:21 PM) II. Provide a level playing field for all competitors to test the skill and ability of each individual, not the equipment or GAMESMANSHIP. Why do we need the playing field if we can't play a game.---Ferrel Spicer FS, You would have to ask Bill Wilson as above is quoted from the IDPA web sites Official Rule Book pdf file. Respectfully, jkelly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jkelly Posted February 19, 2006 Share Posted February 19, 2006 ... both of which would, IMO, defeat the "purpose" of the GAME by over-complicating it.---rvb What purpose is that? Is that something from the rule book or personal opinion? Respectfully, jkelly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted February 19, 2006 Share Posted February 19, 2006 I recall a local IDPA match after smoking a stage when a competitor remarked "I could shoot it that fast too if I was shooting those wimpy powder puff loads! Your gun just doesn't move when you shoot".I just grinned and offered him a box of the "anemic" S&B .45 ball I was shooting! This reminds me of the time, years ago, I was firing a USPSA classifier. Afterwards, this guy sidles up to me and whispers, "Duane, are you sure your ammo's making power factor?" Like he's asking me if I've really got the secret bomb plans. I said, "Pretty sure, yeah." "Well, what powder charge do you use?" "Hell if I know, whatever Black Hills puts in their factory .45 hardball." "OH! You're firing factory hardball." "Yeaaaaaaah." I couldn't understand why he seemed to find that so amazing. "Well, you certainly don't have much muzzle flip." "Well....that is the idea, isn't it?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe D Posted February 19, 2006 Share Posted February 19, 2006 Here's a wild thought. Change the scoring to major/minor in ESP and SSP. Use .5 and 1.50 for minor and .25 and .75 for major. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted Murphy Posted February 20, 2006 Share Posted February 20, 2006 (edited) If the guy doesn't want to reload than all he has to do is buy ammo from Atlanta Arms. Today I witnessed a 9mm 1911 using Atlanta Arms stuff shut down after 2 stages. Ammo was so dirty powder residue got under the ramp on the gun and locked it up. Not sure it's the way to go for non reloaders after seeing that. Though IIRC Sevigny uses their stuff. Ted Edited February 20, 2006 by Ted Murphy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crusher Posted February 20, 2006 Share Posted February 20, 2006 Here's a wild thought. Change the scoring to major/minor in ESP and SSP. Use .5 and 1.50 for minor and .25 and .75 for major.Yep that is WILD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BroncoGlenn Posted February 20, 2006 Share Posted February 20, 2006 But raise the power factor to which manufacturer's level? While we are at it, how about restricting CCW carriers to only shooting what they carry as their CCW gun? IDPA is a game, and as long as someone is keeping score, there is always going to be competition and people will always do what they can to improve their scores within the limits of the rules. The rules already have minimum power factors, raising them won't help the people that are complaining about the reloaders having an advantage by shooting loads that are just over PF. Reloaders, in general, are able to shoot more and typically get more live-fire practice than non-reloaders. It's that additional practice that gives reloaders an edge, and rightfully so. If they want to make rule changes, do something worthwhile, like allowing reloads while moving from position to position, or to not require the retaining of magazines, even if empty, if a reload is performed anywhere other than at slide-lock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revchuck Posted February 20, 2006 Share Posted February 20, 2006 While we are at it, how about restricting CCW carriers to only shooting what they carry as their CCW gun?Glenn - Strange as it may seem, there's a big chunk of IDPA shooters for whom this wouldn't be an issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jkelly Posted February 20, 2006 Share Posted February 20, 2006 But raise the power factor to which manufacturer's level?---BroncoGlen To what ever Bill Wilson had in mind with the statement "...including full charge service ammunition..." under "Purpose" in the IDPA rule book. ...raising them (Power Factors--JK) won't help the people that are complaining about the reloaders having an advantage by shooting loads that are just over PF. While rasing the PF probably would not over ride the advantage of economy that reloading provides (more shooting/practice for the same cost), an increase in PF would help the nonreloaders (I reload myself) by enforcing IDPA Principle number II. "Provide a level playing field for all competitors to test the skill and ability of each individual, not the equipment or GAMESMANSHIP." Although I haven't done it myself, I personnally like the idea of being able to shoot 125 PF .45 ACP in SSP and ESP. And that is certainly an advantage over some guy shooting a 190(?) PF who is trying to follow the Purpose and Principles of IDPA. Respectfully, jkelly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted Murphy Posted February 20, 2006 Share Posted February 20, 2006 Most 9mm ball ammo rides in right at 125 pf. sure, the Nato, +P, and +P+ stuff is hotter, but it is not as available, legal locally, or as cheap. And not all people carry it either. 125 pf for SSR and SSP is not a bad entry level for "full power ammo", cause a lot of guys who carry 9mm's and .38's, carry ammo that is about at that level. What this really boils down to is a difference of opion as to what "full power ammo" is. The .40 and larger guys feel threatened here. FWIW, if they raised the power factor a whole lot I'd lose over half my shooters cause they are Phila cops who shoot with their issued guns and ammo. I've not chronoed the loads (Think I will next match on monday) but they are standard pressure 115 grain JHP's with a published velocity of 1155 for a pf of 132. 2 out of the 3 largest PD's in Pennsylvania use 9mm's fwiw. All raising the power factor or implementing major/minor power factors, would be to change the sport from a 9mm to a .40 cal sport. That would make the sport less attractive to new shooters and non reloaders, and force a lot of people to buy new guns in order to stay competitive. And since IDPA is supposed to be not about an equiment race, I simply do not see this happening anytime soon. Even USPSA Production is at 125 pf with no major/minor scoring. If it's a good idea, it's a good idea. Ted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Practical Use Posted February 20, 2006 Share Posted February 20, 2006 I will attempt once again to deal with the often quoted, "IDPA is a game," and "IDPA is not training." With all due respect, it is whatever the shooter makes of it! Personally, I like it as a game. However, I really respect the few shooters who choose to shoot in a really tactical manner (at least to the extent possible within the course design), whatever that means. We tend to get a bit self-centered as to what the sport (yes, sport) is. How about we let each individual decide. That said, rasing the power factor does not make sense. One of the issues is that the "tactical people" just cannot seem to not compete (double negative), and sometimes want the existing rules changed to make them more competitive. Nope - the sport is what it is. Unless the governing rules are changed, shoot it according to the rules. Do I think that loading a .40 down to 125 is within the sprit of the sport?? I don't know what was in the mind of the organizers. I think we have a mixed message in the rules: shoot "real life" loads, and at the same time, load to 125. The rules do seem to be at odds. There again, what else is more fun than endless debates when we are not at the range!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jkelly Posted February 20, 2006 Share Posted February 20, 2006 What this really boils down to is a difference of opion as to what "full power ammo" is. The .40 and larger guys feel threatened here.---TM I think the only opinion that would matter would be Mr. Wilson’s. I’m only guessing that he doesn’t think of 125pf .45 ACP in SSP and ESP or even the 165pf in CDP are really representative of what the rule book refers to under “Purpose” as “…full charge service ammunition…”. Respectfully, jkelly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genghis Posted February 20, 2006 Share Posted February 20, 2006 IDPA cannot eliminate reloads or 9mm without running off a lot of people. I shoot a G-35 with factory ammo in IDPA and USPSA. Win White Box made 180 - 185 PF out of the gun at Area 4 last year. I'd be better off shooting a G-34, but the 35 runs fine for me. I'd like to have the chance to shoot my smaller carry guns in competition, like in a BUG match. I'd also like for people to be able to shoot bigger guns in competition, like the Desert Eagle and larger revos. But the rules now would lump them all together, making a Desert Eagle and a super light nine uncompetitive. Rather than eliminating guns that fall below PF, shooters should get less credit for less power, and more for more. But that would make for complicated scoring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GmanCdp Posted February 20, 2006 Share Posted February 20, 2006 Until IDPA gets a contract with ESPN,keep it the way it is...if they get the contract with ESPN and they start broadcasting a state match live every month,then maybe we should change it to the full power tactical master factor,so that all the people on tv can see how it really is when you soot off a major power factor round!!! imagine showing slowmotion reruns,he didnt use cover,man that should have been a finger,what a reload,whoa can that next guy do it faster???come on....lets just shoot....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlin Orr Posted February 20, 2006 Share Posted February 20, 2006 GmanCdp Hope you don't mind me borrowing this... "Don't argue with an idiot,people watching may not be able to tell the difference...G'" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GmanCdp Posted February 20, 2006 Share Posted February 20, 2006 i think i got that from the family reunion one year....go ahead be my cousin, i mean guest... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
solaritx Posted February 20, 2006 Share Posted February 20, 2006 Can anyone tell me which .38 special factory ammo makes IDPA power factor? I have tried several and as yet have not found one. Thus, reloading has been the only option. Here is one of the defensive handguns used for years and years by civilian and law enforcement that can't make IDPA power factor with factory ammo, but factory ammo will make power factor in all the other calibers. Just for discussion, why not make the power factor caliber specific instead? Garry N Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revchuck Posted February 20, 2006 Share Posted February 20, 2006 Can anyone tell me which .38 special factory ammo makes IDPA power factor?I have tried several and as yet have not found one. Thus, reloading has been the only option. Here is one of the defensive handguns used for years and years by civilian and law enforcement that can't make IDPA power factor with factory ammo, but factory ammo will make power factor in all the other calibers. Just for discussion, why not make the power factor caliber specific instead? Garry N Garry - The only one I've found so far (aside from +P defensive loads) is S&B 158 grain RNL. It averages about 860 fps from five of my 4" S&Ws, including .38s and .357s. You can find the thread here: http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=31668 .I found a box of PMC 158 grain RNL which I have yet to chrono, and I forgot to add my 4" Colt Official Police, but I'll get to them someday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted Murphy Posted February 21, 2006 Share Posted February 21, 2006 It's hard to get factory .38 ammo that is not +P that makes the pf. Winchester makes a 150 grain lead load with published velocities that should make PF. I've not gotten any to chrono though. So will their cowboy load. I should go to walmart and see if they have any and chrono it. A lot of the 158 grain Round Nose Lead loads (like the blazer) will. Slim pickings on jacketed ammo though. My local gun shop sells CCI Lawman at $12.50/box that is a 158grain TMJ +P load that makes the PF. That's what I use when I go the factory route for an IDPA match. Most the .38 special carry fodder will make the PF, (mine does even from a J frame) but that's nearly all +P stuff. Ted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirtypool40 Posted February 21, 2006 Share Posted February 21, 2006 They start monkey-ing around with the power factor and someone will point out that you HAVE to reload to get 130pf .40. Softest factory stuff I ever found was still 155pf+ and would make the 165 out of about half the 5" guns tried. Why do shooters of the most popular LEO and CCW cartridge (.40 S&W) HAVE to buy reloading equipment in order to shoot the "accessible, entry level, truly tacitcal" competition? I hate to agree with the Tacti-cartel and their "random rule generator" but in ESP they ought to shoot 165 if they are going to lump the .40's in there instead of in with the .45's where they belong. How much factory 130pf 10mm have you run up on? Winchester still makng that 128pf 9x23? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimbob_texas Posted February 21, 2006 Share Posted February 21, 2006 (edited) Just curious. What does "purpose" or "spirit" chrono to? Here's the thing: "purpose" and "spirit" are subjective. Power factors are objective. That means they can be empirically measured and quantified. The rule book really isn't either/or. Mr. Wilson may have meant something in the purpose section of the rule book, but when you ask anyone to quantify what he meant, well, it's 125pf. I don't see the debate. Don't like the rules? Get them changed. Otherwise...move along, nothing to see here... jr Edited February 21, 2006 by jimbob_texas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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