RJH Posted March 20 Share Posted March 20 2 hours ago, rowdyb said: Keep the power factors but change the scoring differential. Reduce it by half the current difference between the C and D hits. Let the tablet do the math. No 1 hour ago, mrvip27 said: who says I personally want to get rid of it? I have shot open. Its fun. I apologize for sparking the same conversation again. Guess we cannot appease everyone. Just having an open discussion. I like the idea of changing the PF max/min. Can't please everybody for sure As far as changing the power factor, you have to figure out what your end goals are. In the past when I thought it might be a good idea to go all minor my end goal was upping participation in Iron sight divisions. They upped the capacity in production with no real bump in participation. I don't think going to minor in limited is going to change participation there now. So what would the actual goal of changing power factor in your opinion? Because I don't think increasing participation is a realistic goal, and I used to be hopeful that it was Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted March 20 Share Posted March 20 9 hours ago, ltdmstr said: Let's just do away with power factor requirement all together and make all the targets 7-10 yards. Like SASS. Seems like that's where things are heading anyway. 7-10 yds really? i am seeing (and hearing about) significantly more difficult targets now that everyone is shooting dots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe4d Posted March 20 Share Posted March 20 5 minutes ago, motosapiens said: 7-10 yds really? i am seeing (and hearing about) significantly more difficult targets now that everyone is shooting dots. much crying will be had... USPSA GMs have issues hitting a barn wall from inside barn.. Run fast spray and prey bask in glory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted March 20 Share Posted March 20 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Joe4d said: much crying will be had... USPSA GMs have issues hitting a barn wall from inside barn.. Run fast spray and prey bask in glory iirc, you don’t even shoot uspsa matches, which might explain your silly claim. my experience shooting 20-30 yard targets at nationals (mixed partials and open) is that the gms are also better at that skill than everyone else. no matter how difficult i make the shooting at a local match, the same 5 or so guys are battling for the overall. if one does poorly at matches, its because one sucks at shooting and would rather make excuses than train, not because theres too much running and the targets are too easy. Edited March 20 by motosapiens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe4d Posted March 20 Share Posted March 20 Just now, motosapiens said: iirc, you don’t even shoot uspsa matches, which might explain your silly claim. my experience shooting 20-30 yard targets at nationals (mixed partials and open) is that the gms are also better at that skill than everyone else. no matter how difficult i make the shooting at a local match, the same 5 or so guys are battling for the overall. yeh i was waiting for your butt hurt..... was thinking of you recently... Started watching Topshot... Never watched it before... didnt have good internet.. so watching season 2, filmed 2011. please no spoilers... But the USPSA GM's SUCK ! Id put $1000 against any of them on an accuracy challenge... Athena Lee Went 4 challenges and never hit a target... she cant shoot a 1911 with good sights USPSA has notthing to do with shooting skill... run fast spray pray you win Hell my wife watching show with me.. She has never shot a match... Watching Chris Tilly... Wow he must miss fast Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ltdmstr Posted March 20 Share Posted March 20 1 hour ago, motosapiens said: 7-10 yds really? i am seeing (and hearing about) significantly more difficult targets now that everyone is shooting dots. Point is, it hardly matters with minor pf and a dot. Basically, it's a foot race/obstacle course where you pop off some rounds along the way. Really not much different than SASS. And with the growing contingent of LARP types, it's basically turning into SASS for the tacticool crowd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nolan Posted March 20 Share Posted March 20 3 hours ago, Joe4d said: yeh i was waiting for your butt hurt..... was thinking of you recently... Started watching Topshot... Never watched it before... didnt have good internet.. so watching season 2, filmed 2011. please no spoilers... But the USPSA GM's SUCK ! Id put $1000 against any of them on an accuracy challenge... Athena Lee Went 4 challenges and never hit a target... she cant shoot a 1911 with good sights USPSA has notthing to do with shooting skill... run fast spray pray you win Hell my wife watching show with me.. She has never shot a match... Watching Chris Tilly... Wow he must miss fast Seriously? You're basing your judgement of USPSA GM's on a TV reality show? How about you watch a few Pro-Am match videos, you know par time falling steel matches where you're scored on how many steel you HIT in a short par time, with 10 round magazines instead of gimmicked shooting with weird guns that you get 3 sighting rounds at carnival targets. Nolan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racinready300ex Posted March 20 Share Posted March 20 9 hours ago, Joe4d said: yeh i was waiting for your butt hurt..... was thinking of you recently... Started watching Topshot... Never watched it before... didnt have good internet.. so watching season 2, filmed 2011. please no spoilers... But the USPSA GM's SUCK ! Id put $1000 against any of them on an accuracy challenge... Athena Lee Went 4 challenges and never hit a target... she cant shoot a 1911 with good sights USPSA has notthing to do with shooting skill... run fast spray pray you win Hell my wife watching show with me.. She has never shot a match... Watching Chris Tilly... Wow he must miss fast Lol, clueless. You're trolling right?? This isn't a uncommon attitude of someone who doesn't really understand. If it helps, shooting slow and moving slow makes the shooting tremendously easier. For the GM's to have a shot they need to be going as fast as they can, and if while doing that if they don't make any major mistakes they might have a shot at winning. Also note, Athena Lee isn't GM now. And in 2011 had only shot a single classifier above 85% (87%). Also, the skill level of uspsa shooters is much higher now then it was 12 years ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zzt Posted March 20 Share Posted March 20 There is some silly stuff in this thread. The original question was silly. Why even consider doing away with major? What are you afraid of? Losing because you don't shoot mostly As? Same thing with rejiggering the scoring differences. Why? So you, a not so good shooter, can place higher in the overall? Raise the PF because it is too low. That would kill 40 and 9 major. No it wouldn't. I shoot Open now and my FP is 175+. The gun runs better there. When I shot Limited, my PF was 172. Going to 175+ is easily achieved. All it would do is make 180 PF harder to shoot. Then people would say the scoring differential should be increased, because 180 is harder to shoot than the mouse fart 9mm factory most are shooting now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Makicjf Posted March 20 Share Posted March 20 (edited) 29 minutes ago, zzt said: There is some silly stuff in this thread. The original question was silly. Why even consider doing away with major? What are you afraid of? Losing because you don't shoot mostly As? Same thing with rejiggering the scoring differences. Why? So you, a not so good shooter, can place higher in the overall? Raise the PF because it is too low. That would kill 40 and 9 major. No it wouldn't. I shoot Open now and my FP is 175+. The gun runs better there. When I shot Limited, my PF was 172. Going to 175+ is easily achieved. All it would do is make 180 PF harder to shoot. Then people would say the scoring differential should be increased, because 180 is harder to shoot than the mouse fart 9mm factory most are shooting now. IIRC correctly, the foundation for major and minor scoring was a 230 45 ACP @ 850 fps ( I think the original major was 190 PF) was believed to do more damage to the target. Conceptually , peripheral hits were rewarded more not for recoil control, but effect on target. That mindset ( factual or not) is no longer adhered to by not only competitive shooters, but many ballisticians and agencies who could be required to poke holes in people to make them stop doing very bad things. The belief of the day is 9, 40, and 45 are essentially the same. This mindset, imo, is why major scoring is questioned. It's viewed by many the same as revolvers, 1911's and iron sights as irrelevant and a throwback to less enlightened times. Just my thoughts, Jason Edited March 20 by Makicjf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe4d Posted March 20 Share Posted March 20 I have watched alot of these people shoot. What was cool about the show is seeing people I knew or knew of.. It got carnival later, but the earlier challenges were pretty basic with a 1911 and a revolver they were shooting single action/. Even the other competitors were not impressed. I mean I was surprised they didnt do better. These were no time limit fairly open stationary shots at less than 30 feet... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted March 20 Share Posted March 20 Time for my annual reminder that Major has NOTHING TO DO WITH RECOIL. It's about power-on-target, and always has been since Jeff Cooper created it. You can argue that LE's are concluding 9mm is "as effective", but A- they don't shoot 125PF and B- a lot of that is to improve the hits and qualification scores among lightly-trained officers. If they could get equivalent hits with .40 or 10mmm or .45 more than a few would switch back.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe4d Posted March 20 Share Posted March 20 Just now, Makicjf said: IIRC correctly, the foundation for major and minor scoring was a 230 45 ACP @ 850 fps ( I think the original major was 190 PF) was believed to do more damage to the target. Conceptually , peripheral hits were rewarded more not for recoil control, but effect on target. That mindset ( factual or not) is no longer adhered to by not only competitive shooters, but many ballisticians and agencies who could be required to poke holes in people to make them stop doing very bad things. The belief of the day is 9, 40, and 45 are essentially the same. This mindset, imo, is why major scoring is questioned. It's viewed by may the same as revolvers, 1911's and iron sights as irrelevant and a throwback to less enlightened times. Just my thoughts, Jason didnt they have a pendulum or something to measure it ? I think the scoring was also a way to balance the 1911's Americans had with the Brownings everyone else had.. Which kinda got thrown out the window when the double stack major guns came out. Shooting major in a doublestack isnt enough of a handicap to make up for the extra scoring points once you get up around Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted March 20 Share Posted March 20 FWIW, I talked to a few Top Shot competitors way back when... there's a lot more going on than gets filmed, and hand somebody a crappy-triggered 1911 or Beretta they've never shot before and it's not too surprising they can't run it like their race guns. The people that did well on the show were the ones that went by the range every week and rented something different out of the rental case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted March 20 Share Posted March 20 9 minutes ago, Joe4d said: didnt they have a pendulum or something to measure it ? I think the scoring was also a way to balance the 1911's Americans had with the Brownings everyone else had.. Which kinda got thrown out the window when the double stack major guns came out. Shooting major in a doublestack isnt enough of a handicap to make up for the extra scoring points once you get up around See above: recoil is not the reason for more points for Major. Cooper well knew double-stack major guns were available, he even made a few (see: Bren 10, SuperCooper, etc) and BHPs were easily available. He and his buddies that had actually shot people felt from experience in various wars & LE, that .45 ACP worked better for that than 9, so they designed a testing ground for equipment and tactics where .45 ACP got more points for peripheral hits than 9 did. Cooper's Practical Pistol Competition, 1974 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ltdmstr Posted March 20 Share Posted March 20 49 minutes ago, shred said: Time for my annual reminder that Major has NOTHING TO DO WITH RECOIL. It's about power-on-target, and always has been since Jeff Cooper created it. You can argue that LE's are concluding 9mm is "as effective", but A- they don't shoot 125PF and B- a lot of that is to improve the hits and qualification scores among lightly-trained officers. If they could get equivalent hits with .40 or 10mmm or .45 more than a few would switch back.. This is correct. Those advocating minor only seem to ignore the fact that power factors for most 9mm defensive ammo is way above USPSA minor. And by a significant amount. Most are in the range of 150, and some are even higher than that. No doubt bullet design and shot placement help bring 9mm closer to 40 and 45 in terms of real world performance. But the amount of kinetic energy (a factor of velocity and mass) impacting the target will always be a key factor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyScuba Posted March 20 Share Posted March 20 Given SASS only allows irons and the shooters that participates in cosplay for adults is getting on in years, it makes sense they have to have 2'x3' plates at 7yrs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Phil Posted March 20 Share Posted March 20 (edited) If major pf is done away with I think the minimum pf rule should drop to 95 and everybody should get a participation trophy at every match. Well, except for revolvers. Edited March 20 by Dr. Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MHicks Posted March 20 Share Posted March 20 More power on target is the reason for major pf scoring. But along with that comes more recoil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted March 20 Share Posted March 20 13 hours ago, ltdmstr said: Point is, it hardly matters with minor pf and a dot. Basically, it's a foot race/obstacle course where you pop off some rounds along the way. Really not much different than SASS. And with the growing contingent of LARP types, it's basically turning into SASS for the tacticool crowd. meh, uspsa has always been a footrace/obstacle course where you popoff some shots. even with irons the targets are all pretty easy to hit when there is no time pressure, so the challenge is to execute fairly easy marksmanship fundamentals at high speed while being distracted by other things Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted March 20 Share Posted March 20 People worried about a foot race, watch some old videos and people are jumping over barriers and s***. I think that's how TGO hurt his knee once, maybe why we don't have a lot of barriers to jump over anymore. Things people b**** about: Low ports High ports Obstacles Cooper tunnels Running Tight shots Hosing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MHicks Posted March 20 Share Posted March 20 I just watched a video of Mason Lane shooting CO at a big match in the Caribbean. Noticed there were a lot of low walls or ports to shoot under. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted March 20 Share Posted March 20 32 minutes ago, MHicks said: I just watched a video of Mason Lane shooting CO at a big match in the Caribbean. Noticed there were a lot of low walls or ports to shoot under. Did he have to go prone? That's the one people really hate LOL And also are you saying you would have liked to have all those low ports or that it look like too many? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ltdmstr Posted March 20 Share Posted March 20 Low ports, prone, and shoot thru barrels were very common back in the day. Also, timed standards. Single stack nationals used to have timed 50 yard strings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted March 20 Share Posted March 20 15 minutes ago, ltdmstr said: Low ports, prone, and shoot thru barrels were very common back in the day. Also, timed standards. Single stack nationals used to have timed 50 yard strings. I'm not wondering about what used to happen, I'm asking who wants to do that now for real? I do hear people lament about the old days, and I get around good enough prone or Cooper tunnels or jumping over a barricade is not an issue, neither is running for just a little bit. But it seems the people that rap about running don't realize that there used to be a lot of physical aspects to the sport that we just don't see as much anymore, I guess that's kind of my point overall And to answer my own question above I'm fine with all of that, I shoot three gun occasionally and there ain't no telling what the hell you're going to be doing in that LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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