RJH Posted January 23 Share Posted January 23 5 minutes ago, Rich406 said: They get bolder and bolder with each removal. It started with the bannings and continues with the removal of duly elected board members. Each removal is more ludicrous than the one before. They have no regard for the membership who voted these people into office. There is literally no consequences to their actions, none of them plan on running for reelection because they know they wouldn't win. What else can be done to them? nothing. That's an interesting thought about them not running for reelection. If they're not running because they don't think they could win what's the point of trying to do what they're doing now? I don't believe what they're doing now is helping the organization in any way. Just wonder what the end goals are Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THS Posted January 23 Share Posted January 23 I'm considering rescinding my membership- I know they wont refund the out years- and not bothering with anything level 2 or above. Quantico is going to PCSL too. USPSA offers the classification system that wont easily be replaced, if you want to compare performance. BUT, I can just as easily shoot a classifier and make that comparison to HF's on their app anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mreed911 Posted January 23 Share Posted January 23 4 hours ago, Fishbreath said: As I understand, Brian Enos doesn't care for non-shooting talk, and still holds some sway even though he isn't running the place anymore, since it's his name on top of the page. That's a fair answer and I can respect that. 1 hour ago, shred said: The Brian Enos forums have no connection to USPSA. The guidelines have been in place since Brian started the forum at least two decades ago and are integral. He wanted a place to talk about shooting, not drama or malfeasance, no matter how much it "needed to be said". BE can't be all things to all people. There was a forum dedicated to the drama. It died. We're letting this thread be for now, but please keep posts to facts, not opinion or personal attacks or they may be removed without notice. Drama and conflict in shooting sports has always been there. One of my favorite quotes is "people with guns shouldn't form clubs". I heard it in the early 1990s, but it was around a long time before that. Also a fair answer. I appreciate the light hand here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich406 Posted January 23 Share Posted January 23 26 minutes ago, RJH said: That's an interesting thought about them not running for reelection. If they're not running because they don't think they could win what's the point of trying to do what they're doing now? I don't believe what they're doing now is helping the organization in any way. Just wonder what the end goals are A2 isn't running, A6 didn't run and A1 resigned (but now he's back?) those are the 3 main problem board members IMO. The others just go along with them. It's far beyond doing what's right at this point. I believe all they care about is protecting their fragile egos, irregardless of what is best for the membership. By the time this is over, the membership will be so fractured that uspsa might not even exist anymore, and that would be a tragedy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ngodwetrust21 Posted January 23 Share Posted January 23 2 hours ago, shred said: The Brian Enos forums have no connection to USPSA. The guidelines have been in place since Brian started the forum at least two decades ago and are integral. He wanted a place to talk about shooting, not drama or malfeasance, no matter how much it "needed to be said". BE can't be all things to all people. There was a forum dedicated to the drama. It died. We're letting this thread be for now, but please keep posts to facts, not opinion or personal attacks or they may be removed without notice. Drama and conflict in shooting sports has always been there. One of my favorite quotes is "people with guns shouldn't form clubs". I heard it in the early 1990s, but it was around a long time before that. Respect. Just the fact that y’all are not immediately shutting this thread down says something in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
konkapot Posted January 23 Share Posted January 23 Funny. The vaunted Bookface pages don't really seem to have logical discourse. Just people talking about revolution and forming another shooting league. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boomstick303 Posted January 23 Share Posted January 23 1 hour ago, RJH said: Just wonder what the end goals are I think it is pretty obvious to cover up corruption. Nothing about this organization has been transparent for some time. By removing the individuals they have, there is possibly only one person left on the board to push back, or try to bring any sort of issues to light. We will see how long that will last. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHA-LEE Posted January 23 Share Posted January 23 (edited) Time to "Vote" with where and how you choose to spend your $$$ Edited January 23 by CHA-LEE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mreed911 Posted January 23 Share Posted January 23 17 minutes ago, CHA-LEE said: Time to "Vote" with where and how you choose to spend your $$$ I'm particularly proud of how our local club handled it: they put it to a vote. End result is there are a decent number of club members that care about/want classifiers, and non-classifier matches would be less interesting to them... but a similar number who don't care and just want to shoot. We ended up splitting the matches - alternating between including a classifier and shooting hit-factor style matches. That might change now with the latest shenanigans and we end up going hit-factor only... but in any case our local club membership will get to decide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
18111811 Posted January 23 Share Posted January 23 (edited) 2 hours ago, THS said: I'm considering rescinding my membership- I know they wont refund the out years- and not bothering with anything level 2 or above. Quantico is going to PCSL too. USPSA offers the classification system that wont easily be replaced, if you want to compare performance. BUT, I can just as easily shoot a classifier and make that comparison to HF's on their app anyway. Full PCSL or every other month like it is now? I didnt shoot this month, but dont remember Frank mentioning a full transition to PCSL in the past. Edited January 23 by 18111811 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ltdmstr Posted January 23 Share Posted January 23 55 minutes ago, CHA-LEE said: Time to "Vote" with where and how you choose to spend your $$$ Yep. Between the board's incompetence and corruption, the division/rule changes, the sh*t attitude of many new shooters, and everything else, it seems like a good time for a change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boomstick303 Posted January 23 Share Posted January 23 5 minutes ago, ltdmstr said: Yep. Between the board's incompetence and corruption, the division/rule changes, the sh*t attitude of many new shooters, and everything else, it seems like a good time for a change. It has been bad for some time. But this last stunt may be a bridge to far for even the most casual of shooters to ignore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnZ Posted January 24 Share Posted January 24 This is one of the reasons that I started ZSA-USA 14 years ago, many of you laughed, which is fine, but we are still here after 14 years and we still run by the same set of rules, #1- be SAFE, #2- have FUN, #3- don't be "that guy". Enjoy !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aandabooks Posted January 24 Share Posted January 24 5 hours ago, mreed911 said: I'm particularly proud of how our local club handled it: they put it to a vote. End result is there are a decent number of club members that care about/want classifiers, and non-classifier matches would be less interesting to them... but a similar number who don't care and just want to shoot. We ended up splitting the matches - alternating between including a classifier and shooting hit-factor style matches. That might change now with the latest shenanigans and we end up going hit-factor only... but in any case our local club membership will get to decide. My club did similar. We are going to hit factor matches as much as possible and will shoot the minimum 4 classifiers per year to stay an affiliated club. If things change at the national level we will then consider coming back to full status. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted January 24 Share Posted January 24 21 hours ago, 858 said: No, that's cronie'ism. It's also why the USPSA organization has the problems it does. No, it's neither. We do not cover for anyone. We just don't allow politics, of any kind, on the forum. The reason that threads like this get locked is that it will devolve into name calling, he said she said, and politics, of which everyone has a different opinion of. As far as this forum goes, and I think I speak for the entire moderating group here, we don't have any dog in any of these fights, nor do we want to. Our focus is this forum, and keeping it running smoothly and without any discussions that have a tendency to bring out the worst in people. We have NO connection to the board, any AD, or any other ranking personell of USPSA or IDPA (or any other shooting sport not mentioned). While AD's and other board members may be members of this forum, they have ZERO input (and always will have ZERO input) on how this forum is run and moderated. On this forum, they are no different than any other member...if they screw up, they are subject to the same actions as any other member...no exceptions. And, to be brutally honest, I'm getting pretty damned tired of hearing how we close threads down because we are in the boards back pocket. Why don't you write the AD's and all board members, President, Executive officer, whomever, and ask how much they are paying us to shut these threads down? How do we benefit from it? You want threads to not get closed and locked? Read the damn guidelines and follow them. They have been on the forum for years. Now, with that being said, because of the recent developments within USPSA, we have let some threads go longer than we did before. But, if this kind of insinuation continues, we will go back to the old ways and lock ANYTHING that we think will go sideways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted January 24 Share Posted January 24 20 hours ago, mreed911 said: Are the Brian Enos forums somehow connected to USPSA? What's the fear hear that causes threads to get shut down. Not fear, it's the heated arguments that politics can create. USPSA, as a political organization whose members are elected, is... political. So threads will be political. Is there not a place to discuss these (even if a "sporting politics" sub were created)? Not on this forum. Asking sincerely - there MUST be a place to discuss among the membership the goings on of the elected leaders in the organization. Again, not on this forum. Any word on WHY the Area 7 AD was removed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted January 24 Share Posted January 24 13 hours ago, Fishbreath said: Reddit. As I understand, Brian Enos doesn't care for non-shooting talk, and still holds some sway even though he isn't running the place anymore, since it's his name on top of the page. Pretty much. This is a shooting forum, not a politics forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mreed911 Posted January 24 Share Posted January 24 (edited) 13 minutes ago, GrumpyOne said: Pretty much. This is a shooting forum, not a politics forum. I see the rules discussed all the time, and the rules are approved by the board. Same with new divisions, changes to existing divisions, etc. If the board has the power to decide that and the members aren't getting what they voted for, that seems to be as relevant as any other discussion about rule changes. Not having a mechanism to effectively have a way to "control" rule changes seems, in and of itself, as important as the actual rule changes. We agree completely that it shouldn't get political, it shouldn't devolve into name calling and accusations, etc. But haven't we seen just that in the rules discussions, especially all the Limited Optics division discussions about gamers who can't shoot, weak wrists, etc.? That seemed well-moderated in the sense of warnings, getting things back on track, etc. without having to shut down every thread. It's unpalatable, for sure. So are some of the rules. Edited January 24 by mreed911 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
858 Posted January 24 Share Posted January 24 12 minutes ago, GrumpyOne said: No, it's neither. We do not cover for anyone. We just don't allow politics, of any kind, on the forum. The reason that threads like this get locked is that it will devolve into name calling, he said she said, and politics, of which everyone has a different opinion of. As far as this forum goes, and I think I speak for the entire moderating group here, we don't have any dog in any of these fights, nor do we want to. Our focus is this forum, and keeping it running smoothly and without any discussions that have a tendency to bring out the worst in people. We have NO connection to the board, any AD, or any other ranking personell of USPSA or IDPA (or any other shooting sport not mentioned). While AD's and other board members may be members of this forum, they have ZERO input (and always will have ZERO input) on how this forum is run and moderated. On this forum, they are no different than any other member...if they screw up, they are subject to the same actions as any other member...no exceptions. And, to be brutally honest, I'm getting pretty damned tired of hearing how we close threads down because we are in the boards back pocket. Why don't you write the AD's and all board members, President, Executive officer, whomever, and ask how much they are paying us to shut these threads down? How do we benefit from it? You want threads to not get closed and locked? Read the damn guidelines and follow them. They have been on the forum for years. Now, with that being said, because of the recent developments within USPSA, we have let some threads go longer than we did before. But, if this kind of insinuation continues, we will go back to the old ways and lock ANYTHING that we think will go sideways. Just because a person or organization has no affiliation to USPSA does not mean they are not incentivized to maintain the status quo. There are all kinds of people and companies that are not paid or affiliated with the USPSA that do not want anything to change because their livelihood comes from the sport. This forum would probably not exist without the the USPSA. The reason you keep getting accused of covering for the bad behavior of the organization is because you keep covering for the status quo. The sport is in jeopardy with what is taking place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted January 24 Share Posted January 24 6 minutes ago, mreed911 said: I see the rules discussed all the time, and the rules are approved by the board. Same with new divisions, changes to existing divisions, etc. Those discussions are about the application of the rules within a match, not the approval of the rules by the board. Discuss the application of the rules all you want, approval of the rules purely a political function, not a dicussion of shooting function. Application of the rules affects everyone who shoots, approval of the rules affects only those having to do the approving, as it is their decision, which is a political position. If the board has the power to decide that and the members aren't getting what they voted for, that seems to be as relevant as any other discussion about rule changes. Not having a mechanism to effectively have a way to "control" rule changes seems, in and of itself, as important as the actual rule changes. That should be taken up with the board, not here. We are not the board, so you are yelling into the void here about how the board acts or doesn't act. We agree completely that it shouldn't get political, it shouldn't devolve into name calling and accusations, etc. But haven't we seen just that in the rules discussions, especially all the Limited Optics division discussions about gamers who can't shoot, weak wrists, etc.? That seemed well-moderated in the sense of warnings, getting things back on track, etc. without having to shut down every thread. You hit the nail on the head...well moderated...but how many times do we give warnings and try to get things back on track before it just becomes problematic and it's just easier to shut it down? It's unpalatable, for sure. So are some of the rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted January 25 Share Posted January 25 We're be re-opening this thread after the meeting tonight for a short time. It will be closed sooner than that for the same reasons the previous one was, so don't be that guy. If you want to rant, bitch about the forum rules or accuse the moderators of being in USPSAs pocket, go to Reddit or somewhere else to do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted January 25 Share Posted January 25 Is there a Cliff's notes version of the meeting for those who didn't watch it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BMSMB Posted January 25 Share Posted January 25 (edited) On 1/22/2024 at 7:50 PM, BMSMB said: I dont have an area director currently (A1) so I let Yee-Min directly know how ashamed I am of his lack of leadership principles. Frank has been restored as A7D. From the small amounts of the meeting I was able to catch, I am much more impressed with YML's leadership tonight. Edited January 25 by BMSMB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted January 25 Share Posted January 25 A4 resigned, A7 is back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted January 25 Share Posted January 25 5 minutes ago, shred said: A4 resigned, A7 is back. Well, I am in area 4 so that is interesting..... I know on FB the a4 director had been taken off the area 4 group, but last I saw he had vowed to not step down. Maybe Scott will be reenlisted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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