DME Presentation

[motosapiens]

1 hour ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

I know not everyone can be on your level but 5% can be a pretty big hurtle at a major. At CO nations the difference is 65% and 70% was 61 shooters. i'm sure there are a ton of guys that shot that match that would do anything to have finished 5% higher in the standings. 

the people shooting minor in limited are almost exclusively noobs. the last limited nationals I shot, the highest minor shooter was under 70%, and only 6 minor shooters were above 45%, so pretty much not competitive regardless of pf.

Edited July 7, 2023 by motosapiens

[Racinready300ex]

1 minute ago, motosapiens said:

the people shooting A fudgecicle nobody but a few crayon chewers and winder likkers want are almost exclusively noobs. the last limited nationals I shot, the highest minor shooter was under 70%, so pretty much not competitive regardless of pf.

 

Everyone is competing with someone even if they aren't there to win. And even though you may not approve of their competitiveness I'm sure most people don't like giving up 5% due to equipment. 

 

The catch here isn't that noobs shoot A fudgecicle nobody but a few crayon chewers and winder likkers want it's that half the shooters in limited shoot minor and more so that new shooters get stuck there because there isn't a division for them.  I can't imagine it's a coincidence that the divisions where most people get stuck because they don't fit also has the highest discrepancy between members and non-members. 

 

I think fixing production to fit gear people bring is be long over due.

[BritinUSA]

For any survey to be meaningful it needs to be inclusive; New members, existing members, non-members and those that have let their membership lapse.

 

Why do people join, or why do they leave? 
 

Why do they shoot, or why did they stop ?

 

Why do people join, and not shoot ?

 

Why do people not join, but shoot anyway ?

 

 

[RJH]

3 hours ago, Dazhi said:

 

I believe this is still true even if they make a 140mm iron minor division today.  Many people are saying iron divisions are dead.  I don't agree.  There is simply not a single high cap iron minor division.  Optics now have 2 high cap minor divisions.  Why the discrepancy? Maybe it depends on who is more vocal in asking for new divisions.

 

I don't know, a lot of people asked for  limited    minor for a long time. Enough so that the mods on this site made the stupid window licker replacement thing when somebody asked for limited    minor. So I guess basically the mods on Enos don't approve of that division, but I think there's a lot of other people that might think it's a good idea. I might shoot it if it was a thing and then again I might not, but I don't think it'd be a bad thing especially since production, single stack, l10, revolver are all dead and limited seems to be struggling, I guess basically what I'm saying there is that the current Iron sights divisions do not appear to be offering what people are wanting to shoot

[motosapiens]

1 hour ago, Racinready300ex said:

<snip> it's that half the shooters in limited shoot minor <snip>

 

I think fixing production to fit gear people bring is be long over due.

noobs who only shoot limited for a short time before figuring out what they really want to do. I don't know if I care much about them or not. Most of them where we are gravitate to another division pretty quickly, but maybe that's just because their 9mm gun is 3-5% of the 50% that they are behind everyone else.

 

At any rate, I think we can probably agree on updating production.... mostly just make it higher capacity.

[motosapiens]

15 minutes ago, BritinUSA said:

 

Why do people not join, but shoot anyway ?

 

this also is a non-issue where we are. we have only a tiny handful of non-uspsa members at the bottom of our results list, almost all of them on their 1st or second match. No idea why that is. It is also worth noting that our club and other nearby clubs host major matches, and the majority of shooters at our regular monthly matches shoot 1 or more majors every year.

[Maximis228]

I stopped signing up with my USPSA number late last year (20+ matches missing from my record). I do it as a silent protest to USPSA stuff going on. If it's not a major match, I just use "Pending". 

[truespode]

17 minutes ago, RJH said:

I might shoot it if it was a thing and then again I might not, but I don't think it'd be a bad thing especially since production, single stack, l10, revolver are all dead and limited seems to be struggling, 

 

 

I have some 40 to shoot up and am thinking of shooting Limited here and there over the winter but when I have in the past I have shot A fudgecicle nobody but a few crayon chewers and winder likkers want b/c I have more ammo. I don't want to invest in 40 even though I can load it. I just put a 9mm barrel in my plastic gun and shoot minor instead.

I also want to say A fudgecicle nobody but a few crayon chewers and winder likkers want as much as possible b/c I enjoy the winder licker comment that it is replaced with. A fudgecicle nobody but a few crayon chewers and winder likkers want for the win!

[motosapiens]

3 minutes ago, Maximis228 said:

I stopped signing up with my USPSA number late last year (20+ matches missing from my record). I do it as a silent protest to USPSA stuff going on. If it's not a major match, I just use "Pending". 

you mean the 'stuff' that is claimed by people who collaborated with anti-gun groups and dem politicians to get a national match moved to another state at the last second? Not sure those people have too much credibility to me.

 

I communicate regularly with my AD and I have squadded with several other AD's and spent some time talking to them. I trust them more than random troublemakers and attention-whores on instagram.

[Maximis228]

1 minute ago, motosapiens said:

you mean the 'stuff' that is claimed by people who collaborated with anti-gun groups and dem politicians to get a national match moved to another state at the last second? Not sure those people have too much credibility to me.

 

I communicate regularly with my AD and I have squadded with several other AD's and spent some time talking to them. I trust them more than random troublemakers and attention-whores on instagram.

 

Having run the most active club in the Midwest for 5 years... while also attending majors and shooting with many ADs and MDs outside those in my direct area, I would say I also have my finger on the pulse. My opinions and information were formed well before the recent internet drama. 

 

I can dislike both the org... and the howler monkeys. Crazy... I know... 

[truespode]

9 minutes ago, Maximis228 said:

I can dislike both the org... and the howler monkeys. Crazy... I know... 

 

I trust my home club, a few local MDs, RM's and my Section Coordinator... Outside of that I'm right there with you. 

 

It's a non-profit though and I have never seen or been a part of one that didn't have issues. 

[motosapiens]

21 minutes ago, Maximis228 said:

 

Having run the most active club in the Midwest for 5 years... while also attending majors and shooting with many ADs and MDs outside those in my direct area, I would say I also have my finger on the pulse. My opinions and information were formed well before the recent internet drama. 

fair enough. I can certainly respect that opinion. would be interesting to discuss over a beer, and I might learn a few things.

[HighSpeedFocusedFailure]

On 7/7/2023 at 8:54 AM, Racinready300ex said:

 

Non members can only shoot level 1. 

 

Being a member get's you a magazine you don't read, a classification system and allows you to shoot majors. 

 

Of course if you're shooting a production gun with minor ammo in limited your classifier is going to be skewed, and you wont be competitive even within your skill level at majors. So the only benefit to those people is the magazine they don't read. 

This almost sounds like you think a division for production irons guns with 9mm minor ammo should exist. 
 

It’s too bad my local match doesn’t have this. I signed up for this elusive “Production” division and was alone. Oh and I got my ass handed to me by 4/6 stages that had 6 targets available from each “view”. Yeah. 
 

literally. One man match. It sucked. And I still lost. 

[Racinready300ex]

7 hours ago, HighSpeedFocusedFailure said:

This almost sounds like you think a division for production irons guns with 9mm minor ammo should exist. 

 

Absolutely 

[HighSpeedFocusedFailure]

2 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

Absolutely 

LoL for real
 

Wish in one hand… you know the rest. 
 

I wish that Prod would have been modernized prior to CO being a thing. Now I’m stuck taking a pretty heavy penalty because I want to shoot in a division that actually has people in it besides me. 
 

I signed up for my first L2 as Prod. 
 

7 shooters including myself out of like 170. One M. 2 A. 1 B. 3 C. I’m a C low B. Even if I do exceptionally well for 2 full days I’m looking at fourth by default. Screw that. That just irritates the competitor in me. 
 

so fudgecicles and winder lickin for me I guess. I’d rather be judged against a group of winder lickers and place low than get handed 4th because no one showed up in my division. 

 

 

[Racinready300ex]

9 minutes ago, HighSpeedFocusedFailure said:

LoL for real
 

Wish in one hand… you know the rest. 
 

I wish that Prod would have been modernized prior to CO being a thing. Now I’m stuck taking a pretty heavy penalty because I want to shoot in a division that actually has people in it besides me. 
 

I signed up for my first L2 as Prod. 
 

7 shooters including myself out of like 170. One M. 2 A. 1 B. 3 C. I’m a C low B. Even if I do exceptionally well for 2 full days I’m looking at fourth by default. Screw that. That just irritates the competitor in me. 
 

so fudgecicles and winder lickin for me I guess. I’d rather be judged against a group of winder lickers and place low than get handed 4th because no one showed up in my division. 

 

 

 

I've always liked the idea of Prod and really wish I'd shot it back in the day when it was at it's peak. I've recently decided screw it I'm shooting production some anyway. I may bounce around some between Prod and L-Minor with the same rig. I think if production had standard capacity mags back when CO went to 140's it would still be a viable division today.

 

I have 2 majors left this year, one is A8 I think Strader is shooter Prod so that'll be good. The last is a state match that I'll probably decide later if I shoot prod or L-minor. I still need 2 more classifiers so I can get classified lol. That and remember how to use iron sights. 

[THS]

I shot Production 20 years ago and it was a good division.   It was on the rise then, but Limited still had Strader, Seeklander, Sindelar and Francisco in local monthlies, with Jarrett a few times a year as well.   I learned a bunch just watching while they shot!

 

I could see sights then, haha, and the holster placement and 10 round limits made you look at stages differently.  Those things made it distinctly different than Limited (minor) and although I saw some gaming I enjoyed the challenge.

 

Like others I think putting a mag restriction- either length or capacity- and going back to behind the hip for CO and Prod would be smart.   I don't care what holster or pouches you use, as long as it is behind the hip.    In that scenario Prod is an iron sight behind the hip div, CO is the same with Optics, and LO is shooters choice for belt set up.   15 or 17 in a mag would cut down on all the reloads and complex planning, and be more fun too.

 

VA State has 215 Registered-   101 are CO, and 9 Prod.   That is telling!

Edited July 18, 2023 by THS

[ddc]

Looking for an historical perspective...

 

Has USPSA ever:

 

1.  Eliminated a division

2. Tightened an existing division's equipment requirements

3. Had a provisional division that failed to become permanent

4. Had a provisional division that became permanent with significant changes to the provisional equipment rules

[shred]

Off the top of my head.

 

1- USPSA used to recognize Modified, but stopped well before IPSC killed it.  I think that's the only one (late 90s, early 00s?). 

2- Added ".40 or larger for Major" to screw over .356 TS&W in Limited (early 90s).  Added, then quickly tossed trigger-pull requirements (Strader era, IIRC)

3- the only Provisionals I remember were Single Stack (shenanigans need to pass the 'make this permanent' bar, thereafter no bar was specified), CO and now LO.

4- Significant changes to non-provisional divisions have happened-- mag lengths in Limited & Open (1990s), capacity in CO, weights & holster rules all over the place

 

[HighSpeedFocusedFailure]

Does anyone think Production being killed will have an effect on the number of new shooters that join the sport over the next few years? 
 

I was in one of my LGSs the other day and the overwhelming majority of pistols in the counter were all iron sighted. 
 

Between reading in USPSA-centric areas online and YT content you’d think that irons were all but gone. Even the enormous counters at BassPro are full of irons guns. 
 

I feel we have a huge shortage of participants headed our way, noobs usually don’t want to fork out another 4-600 to mill and outfit their only blaster with an optic. 

[Joe4d]

On 7/7/2023 at 9:11 AM, truespode said:

 

I have dealt with a lot of new shooters lately. I'd say of the 15 or so I have met at a match about 5 or 6 have gone on to shoot more matches and a couple have become members for classification. 

Small sample but compare that locally the amount of tenured members who have let their membership lapse but still shoot locals and anecdotally from what I see we are losing more members than we are gaining. They still shoot just not as much.

I wonder not only why new people don't come back and don't join but also what is turning tenured members away?

well a BOD that wasnt clueless and out of touch  might ask those questions.,,,  Bad marketing ,, companies put all time and effort into looking for new customers and never ask why old  customers left.  Then promptly want to throw a bunch of random changes against a wall, see what sticks and pat themselves on the back for fixing things.

[Southpaw]

1 hour ago, HighSpeedFocusedFailure said:

Does anyone think Production being killed will have an effect on the number of new shooters that join the sport over the next few years? 
 

I was in one of my LGSs the other day and the overwhelming majority of pistols in the counter were all iron sighted. 
 

Between reading in USPSA-centric areas online and YT content you’d think that irons were all but gone. Even the enormous counters at BassPro are full of irons guns. 
 

I feel we have a huge shortage of participants headed our way, noobs usually don’t want to fork out another 4-600 to mill and outfit their only blaster with an optic. 

 

Wouldn't it be swell if USPSA had a division for the most popular type of handgun sold in this country - high cap, iron sighted, 9mm handguns.  It's only been the most popular type of handgun sold for the past ~30 years, yet we still have no division for it...

[Joe4d]

25 minutes ago, Southpaw said:

 

Wouldn't it be swell if USPSA had a division for the most popular type of handgun sold in this country - high cap, iron sighted, 9mm handguns.  It's only been the most popular type of handgun sold for the past ~30 years, yet we still have no division for it...

well, IPSC us  and USPSA has about a 30 year history of head in rectum syndrome..  I mean the entire sport of IDPA exists because USPSA couldnt figure that out. 

[ddc]

3 hours ago, Joe4d said:

well, IPSC us  and USPSA has about a 30 year history of head in rectum syndrome..  I mean the entire sport of IDPA exists because USPSA couldnt figure that out. 

 

and IDPA is such a shining beacon of enlightenment... oh yeah...

[Joe4d]

7 hours ago, ddc said:

 

and IDPA is such a shining beacon of enlightenment... oh yeah...

Oh it has had issues thats for sure... Point being though , The perception was IPSC was just out of touch with what shooters owned and wanted to shoot.