DME Presentation

[MikeBurgess]

3 hours ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

For me it is, but I may be the exception.

If I shoot both sports and steel challenge (select matches based on distance to local matches) I save a lot on gas and travel time and the idpa matches are typically 50 rounds or so lower in round count which saves a bit more. 

When gas was 50% less and primers were 35/1000 and etc then I didn't so much mind the cost of being strictly USPSA focused. 

 

2 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

Same here. 

 

I've been at this long enough to have all the gear, so that's not in the equation but I realize from newer people IDPA requires less gear. Gun, holster 3 mags, 2 mag pouches. Fancy double layer belts aren't allowed, the more expensive racey holsters and mag pouches aren't allowed. 

 

There are IDPA clubs half the distance from me vs USPSA, and some of them only charge $5 for the match fee. I shot a USPSA match last night, drove 2 hours from home, plus $20 in tolls and a $30 entry fee. Lower round count saves a little money too.

 

Majors are also a big savings. Since you can't walk stages ahead of time, and the stages are typically simpler any major with in a 3-4 hour drive I'll do in a day with out needing a hotel. In this area that can be 6-8 majors in a year. Vs every USPSA major requires a stay in a hotel so you can get to the range and walk stages. USPSA entry fee's are typically higher too, the VA state IDPA is $125 vs VA state USPSA is $200. Add in a hotel and I'll be over double the cost. 

 

Don't take this the wrong way but it sounds like your description of why you shoot IDPA is like shopping at a  local thrift store,  Its closer, cheaper and less ammo.  It doesn't sound like you choose it because its a better product but a better value 

 

People choose their recreational activities for a variety of reasons, and we can learn a lot from thinking about what drives those decisions. Maybe clubs with low attendance should look at the why and see if there is anything they can change in what they do to broaden their appeal. Maybe there is an opportunity for a New USPSA club to specialize in smaller cheaper lower round count matches?

 

So the real question is if you had a choice between 2 matches equal distance from home, 1 IDPA and 1 USPSA both took the same time to shoot and both only required 50 rounds what one would you choose? 

 

 

[IHAVEGAS]

14 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

 

Don't take this the wrong way but it sounds like your description of why you shoot IDPA is like shopping at a  local thrift store,  Its closer, cheaper and less ammo.  It doesn't sound like you choose it because its a better product but a better value 

 

 

 

So the real question is if you had a choice between 2 matches equal distance from home, 1 IDPA and 1 USPSA both took the same time to shoot and both only required 50 rounds what one would you choose? 

 

 

 

You are correct. Shooting steel and IDPA and close USPSA, all with friends, is a better value, to me, than shooting strictly USPSA. 

 

To the hypothetical, in that situation I would go with IDPA, simply because there is more shooter activity per round including increased accuracy emphasis. Also in that 50 round scenario I would be looking to pick up a revolver for the same reason. Stages could be designed differently to give you more reward per shot & etc, but with your hypothetical and the stages I see for both match types I would choose differently than I do with current typical round counts. 

[MHicks]

I used to shoot IDPA and very occasionally will shoot one these days.  But I never saw 50 total round count matches. There were some shooters who preferred IDPA over USPSA with one of the reasons being it required less ammo. Not necessarily their only reason though. If I'm taking the time to go to a match I'd much rather shoot around 150 rounds or so.

[Racinready300ex]

22 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

 

Don't take this the wrong way but it sounds like your description of why you shoot IDPA is like shopping at a  local thrift store,  Its closer, cheaper and less ammo.  It doesn't sound like you choose it because its a better product but a better value 

 

For the most part I do enjoy IDPA, If I didn't I wouldn't shoot it. So yes, it's absolutely a better value. 

 

It's not that uspsa isn't great, it certainly is. I think it's better than IDPA overall. But I recognize it comes with a more premium price tag too. I'm not going to pretend that cost isn't a factor. 

 

47 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

So the real question is if you had a choice between 2 matches equal distance from home, 1 IDPA and 1 USPSA both took the same time to shoot and both only required 50 rounds what one would you choose? 

 

 

 

The round count is probably one of the smaller places to save IMO.  Part of what makes uspsa better is the stages, but they take more time and materials to setup. You also have classifier fee's and activity fees. This makes putting on a low cost IDPA match is much easier than trying to do the same with USPSA. 

 

But, if you pulled if off. Then for me it would come down to where I can squad with friends and/or which MD puts on the better match. 

 

If you don't IDPA, matches generally require a much higher level of accuracy. Which is a nice change. You'll also see a lot of activators, especially at majors. I've shot Area matches with 2 swingers in the whole match. I once shot a IDPA state matches with 12 stages and something like 20 activated targets. Vary different games for sure. 

 

 

[MikeBurgess]

1 hour ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

Part of what makes uspsa better is the stages, but they take more time and materials to setup. You also have classifier fee's and activity fees. This makes putting on a low cost IDPA match is much easier than trying to do the same with USPSA. 

 

Activity fee is/was (I haven't looked recently) $1.50 Classifier fee $1.50 total of $3 per shooter so the same as 3 cardboard targets or about 10 rounds of factory 9mm ammo

As far as match expenses go its pretty much right at the bottom of the list, but no Idea what IDPA charges 

 

[Racinready300ex]

32 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

Activity fee is/was (I haven't looked recently) $1.50 Classifier fee $1.50 total of $3 per shooter so the same as 3 cardboard targets or about 10 rounds of factory 9mm ammo

As far as match expenses go its pretty much right at the bottom of the list, but no Idea what IDPA charges 

 

 

Do you not believe that IDPA can be done for less money?

 

IDPA doesn't charge anything per match, no activity fees or classifier fee's or any of that. So my local club that does matches for $5, if they had to pay USPSA $3 they would have $2 left to make ends meet. Obviously they'd need to increase prices. If we math that out a little $3 per shooter, 50 shooters per match, 6 matches a month = $10,800 per year. 

 

18 round stage needs max 9 paper targets vs 16 in uspsa. Less walls, less fault lines, less setup time. less pasters,  faster reset. Then you get into the details of building stages for uspsa vs IDPA. IDPA is much easier to put a stage on the ground morning of with little to no planning. 

 

The difference between the is pretty massive even at the club level. 

 

Example there is a local IDPA major with a $65-$75 entry fee. Very limited prizes and sponsors. No T-shirt or food provided. 10 Stages, staff shoots one day everyone else the next. They have enough locals to pull off staff with out needing a lot of expense there. 10 stages, plus chrono and equipment check. It's always been a good match, they have laser activated, air powered movers that are pretty tricky to shoot. I don't think you could pull that off at a uspsa match. 

[MikeBurgess]

3 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

Do you not believe that IDPA can be done for less money?

 

IDPA doesn't charge anything per match, no activity fees or classifier fee's or any of that. So my local club that does matches for $5, if they had to pay USPSA $3 they would have $2 left to make ends meet. Obviously they'd need to increase prices. If we math that out a little $3 per shooter, 50 shooters per match, 6 matches a month = $10,800 per year. 

 

18 round stage needs max 9 paper targets vs 16 in uspsa. Less walls, less fault lines, less setup time. less pasters,  faster reset. Then you get into the details of building stages for uspsa vs IDPA. IDPA is much easier to put a stage on the ground morning of with little to no planning. 

 

The difference between the is pretty massive even at the club level. 

 

Example there is a local IDPA major with a $65-$75 entry fee. Very limited prizes and sponsors. No T-shirt or food provided. 10 Stages, staff shoots one day everyone else the next. They have enough locals to pull off staff with out needing a lot of expense there. 10 stages, plus chrono and equipment check. It's always been a good match, they have laser activated, air powered movers that are pretty tricky to shoot. I don't think you could pull that off at a uspsa match. 

I was just saying the fees are not a lot of money,  so from a match management perspective an $8 match fee would be the same profit as idpa with no fee (I did state I had no idea on IDPA costs) 

 

I totally understand that less of everything is less cost, not arguing that at all. 

 

My original point was the various shooting sports are all different and appeal to different people for different reasons. 

I will admit that my personal reasons for choosing one match over another are likely different that the reasons others use to come to either the same or different answers. 

 

I will also admit that my assumptions about others decision making is likely wrong. As an example, my club ran a weeday evening USPSA 4 stage match for a couple summers, we started the match believing this would allow the diehard shooters to get some more stages in every month, what happened was most shooters were people that were not willing or able to give up a Saturday to shoot a regular match. We were wrong both on what the customers wanted and who they were

 

[Racinready300ex]

21 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

I will also admit that my assumptions about others decision making is likely wrong. As an example, my club ran a weeday evening USPSA 4 stage match for a couple summers, we started the match believing this would allow the diehard shooters to get some more stages in every month, what happened was most shooters were people that were not willing or able to give up a Saturday to shoot a regular match. We were wrong both on what the customers wanted and who they were

 

 

I wouldn't of expected that either, at least not in the past. I recently found a Monday night indoor USPSA match that's 2 hours south of me, and I've started shooting it for that same reason. I can get in two matches a month if I want and still be home with the family on the weekends. 

 

It's expensive, and it's pretty far the value comes from the fact that it's Monday night. 

[motosapiens]

2 hours ago, MikeBurgess said:

As far as match expenses go its pretty much right at the bottom of the list, but no Idea what IDPA charges 

 

everywhere around here charges the same for IDPA and USPSA matches, and both are pretty cheap since the range clubs are the ones putting on the matches, not a separate org that has to rent the range.

 

attendance is significantly higher at uspsa matches, and the talent is pretty significantly higher too.

Edited July 25, 2023 by motosapiens

[Racinready300ex]

It is interesting the amount of hate it seems the average USPSA member has for IDPA and they think so much higher of them selves for the game they play. More so if they're man enough to shoot major or use iron sights, unlike the wusses that don't. 

 

 

[motosapiens]

10 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

It is interesting the amount of hate it seems the average USPSA member has for IDPA and they think so much higher of them selves for the game they play. More so if they're man enough to shoot major or use iron sights, unlike the wusses that don't. 

 

 

Perhaps you have misunderstood. I personally like IDPA. I shoot it a few times a year with my carry gun and IWB holster. There are a couple other uspsa shooters here who do the same thing. Having shot both over the last 10 years, I feel competent to comment on the differences that we see locally. Please forgive me if those objective observations hurt anyone's feellings.

Edited July 25, 2023 by motosapiens

[MHicks]

As far as matches with activators and moving targets some of it just depends on what clubs have to use. Locally my experience is that you see more popper activated swingers and max trap clamshells set up in various ways at USPSA matches. IDPA seems to use more drop turners and targets that simply drop into a static position from behind a wall or barrels upon activation.  Generally more steel in USPSA too. I know these things can vary by region.

[MikeBurgess]

I'll try to steer this back to the original (or at least where I started) point.

 

There are many different people shooting USPSA for various reasons, I don't think (but am willing to be wrong) having a division for a newb with a G17 and 3, 17 round mags is going to change that calculus. if you want to play the fast paced first person shooter game that is USPSA then you are most likely not going to balk at using it as an excuse to buy a CO or LO gun (yes LO is dumb but that's a separate issue) 

 

Saturdays match had 79 shooters 

limited had 10 4 major 6 minor highest minor was 69% and was 20 seconds slower than the next place up who shot Major, power factor was irrelevant in the division results 

Open had 17 CO 33 and LO 6 for a total of 56 Optics shooters  or 70% 

Production was 5 shooters the same as Revolver and edging out the 2 guys in Single Stack or 15% total low cap

Looking at the results all 5 production shooters were new, I would also be surprised if all 5 had 100% legal gear for the division, most just see production just assume it means different than what the rules say. 

 

[Racinready300ex]

14 hours ago, MikeBurgess said:

I'll try to steer this back to the original (or at least where I started) point.

 

There are many different people shooting USPSA for various reasons, I don't think (but am willing to be wrong) having a division for a newb with a G17 and 3, 17 round mags is going to change that calculus. if you want to play the fast paced first person shooter game that is USPSA then you are most likely not going to balk at using it as an excuse to buy a CO or LO gun (yes LO is dumb but that's a separate issue) 

 

 

I think it's a mistake to believe that only new shooters could want to shoot a production style gun with high cap mags.

 

 

[Racinready300ex]

15 hours ago, MHicks said:

As far as matches with activators and moving targets some of it just depends on what clubs have to use. Locally my experience is that you see more popper activated swingers and max trap clamshells set up in various ways at USPSA matches. IDPA seems to use more drop turners and targets that simply drop into a static position from behind a wall or barrels upon activation.  Generally more steel in USPSA too. I know these things can vary by region.

 

Around here I see vary few activators at all in uspsa. I think the reason is reset time coupled with squad/match size. You can reset a 15-18 round IDPA stage with a swinger faster than a 28-32 round uspsa stage with out one. Add in bigger squads at a lot of uspsa matches and you'll see less and less activators. 

 

I also see way less SHO and WHO at uspsa around here. One year I went a whole season without shooting one handed at a uspsa match including majors. I don't think I've ever shot a IDPA major with out one hand shooting. 

 

I've also never shot out of or even around a car at a uspsa match and no low/no light either. Not really a bad thing just a observation. There are things you probably wont get to do if you never try IDPA.

 

You're right I do think IDPA misses out by using so little steel, but unfortunately there are limits on steel in the rule book. They also can't use texas stars. Granted I almost never see stars at uspsa matches either. 

 

[Joe4d]

Production with a 126, 140 or box rule mag limit scored minor would quickly become the largest division

[Boomstick303]

1 minute ago, Joe4d said:

Production with a 126, 140 or box rule mag limit scored minor would quickly become the largest division

 

We will agree to disagree on this.  Not even close to the largest division.  It might overtake PCC numbers but that is about it.  

[Racinready300ex]

26 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

We will agree to disagree on this.  Not even close to the largest division.  It might overtake PCC numbers but that is about it.  

 

Yeah, I don't think it'd be the largest either. Maybe had it been done the same time CO went 140's but that ship sailed.

 

My guess would be LO/CO will remain the top or top two pulling more shooters from Open and Limited. Hi-cap production will be the nail in the coffin for Limited possibly putting it right behind LO/CO depending on how well Open can hold on to people. 

 

My AD didn't seem keen on the idea and I think they were supposed to vote yesterday so I guess we'll see in the next meeting minutes if there are any changes on the horizon. 

[motosapiens]

9 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

My guess would be LO/CO will remain the top or top two pulling more shooters from Open and Limited.

we're seeing alot of people switching from CO to open over the last couple years (including mrs moto). CO gave them a taste of the dot and hi-cap, and now they want major scoring and better triggers and even higher cap. Open numbers locally are about double what they were a few years ago.

[ddc]

1 hour ago, Joe4d said:

Production with a 126, 140 or box rule mag limit scored minor would quickly become the largest division

 

I think Prod with a 141.25 limit would become more popular than it now is.

Largest division? Overtaking CO as currently defined? That's a stretch.

The other two options even less likely.

[MikeBurgess]

A friend of mine did some practiscore data mining and the overall trends he found were interesting, this was pre LO so ignore LO for the time being

 

Limited has been on a steady downward slide since CO started. 

Production peaked about the time CO was created then fell off a cliff and will be running SS and Revo numbers soon

Open participation has remained very stable from before CO and PCC existed 

PCC peaked a couple years ago and seems to be stabilizing somewhere between the dead and competitive divisions

SS is dead and remains dead

Revo is dead and remains dead

L10 is dumb and remains dead

 

The biggest thing I took away from his info was when graphed every division without a dot that was above3% activity was going down and if anything the downward trend was accelerating. In the next few years all Iron sight divisions will all be niche divisions like SS and Revo.

 

People always ask where are new division shooters coming from, the answer appears to be Production and Limited

at the beginning of the data set (practiscore isn't that old) Limited was # 1 and Prod was # 2 in participation Open was #3 L10 SS and revo were irrelevant. Now CO is # 1 by a HUGE margin Open is #2   and Limited is #3 and falling PCC is #4 and steady Prod is #5 closing in on irrelevant. 

 

 

Looking at the DME report, I would say at 76% of total entries, its  pretty clear that the membership wants to shoot guns with optics. 

 

 

 

[IHAVEGAS]

17 minutes ago, ddc said:

I think Prod with a 141.25 limit would become more popular than it now is.

 

Maybe. You are going to lose the few weirdos like myself who love lo cap minor because of the additional accuracy, stage planning and reloading requirements involved. I suspect there are not enough of us to matter.

 

What I don't see is why higher cap would attract anyone away from CO or pcc or major scoring or whatever.  

[Racinready300ex]

49 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

we're seeing alot of people switching from CO to open over the last couple years (including mrs moto). CO gave them a taste of the dot and hi-cap, and now they want major scoring and better triggers and even higher cap. Open numbers locally are about double what they were a few years ago.

 

I don't see double, but I do see CO shooters who are dabbling in Open so I don't think open is in trouble like Limited is. No doubt LO will poach shooters from Open, Limited and CO. 

[motosapiens]

1 minute ago, Racinready300ex said:

No doubt LO will poach shooters from Open, Limited and CO. 

i have seen zero open shooters actually switch to CO or LO long term. I have seen a few shoot CO for a month or two to prep for co nationals, but then they immediately go back to open. 

 

For someone already shooting open, I don't see any attraction whatsoever to spend similar money on a minor-only uncompensated division.

 

But I don't really care. LO will be whatever it is, and if tons of people want to spend $4-5k  on a custom gun to shoot minor, that's super cool and i hope they have fun.

[Racinready300ex]

15 minutes ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

Maybe. You are going to lose the few weirdos like myself who love lo cap minor because of the additional accuracy, stage planning and reloading requirements involved. I suspect there are not enough of us to matter.

 

What I don't see is why higher cap would attract anyone away from CO or pcc or major scoring or whatever.  

 

For me it would be just wanting to shoot irons but not really caring so much about the stage planning for lo-cap. 

26 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

 

Limited has been on a steady downward slide since CO started.  Hi-cap (and 40 eww)

Production peaked about the time CO was created then fell off a cliff and will be running SS and Revo numbers soon  Is dead...Low cap & Irons

Open participation has remained very stable from before CO and PCC existed Hi-cap

PCC peaked a couple years ago and seems to be stabilizing somewhere between the dead and competitive divisions Hi-cap

SS is dead and remains dead Low Cap & irons

Revo is dead and remains dead Low Cap & irons

L10 is dumb and remains dead Low Cap & irons

 

 

I think was sticks out is the dead divisions are irons and low capacity. So what we really don't know is the iron sights killing these divisions or the magazine capacity?

 

Trends show us people want to shoot 9mm minor high cap guns for sure. Do they care about the optic or not can't really be determined with the data we have. We can look to IDPA, where CO is also the most popular division. But they have only one optic division and 5 iron sight division. The next 3 majors I'm shooting CO is about 50% of the match, the other 50% are shooting irons just split between several divisions. So in these examples is the Optic really more popular? 

 

 

 

8 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

i have seen zero open shooters actually switch to CO or LO long term. I have seen a few shoot CO for a month or two to prep for co nationals, but then they immediately go back to open. 

 I have, and we're talking about a division that is 3 months old. 

 

8 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

 

For someone already shooting open, I don't see any attraction whatsoever to spend similar money on a minor-only uncompensated division.

 

Simple open guns break more and are more trouble to feed. (loading 9 major or 38). People will for sure leave, some already did and went to CO. The chances of those guys going to LO for a 2011 without the hassle of open is pretty high. 

 

8 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

 

But I don't really care. LO will be whatever it is, and if tons of people want to spend $4-5k  on a custom gun to shoot minor, that's super cool and i hope they have fun.

 

I don't care either, LO will likely be the #1 division. It's inevitable.